So just my thoughts, I have always found Leovold very awkward and not worth the blue splash, as it usually is too trying to have all three colors regularly on turn 3. The cuts I would makeOriginally Posted by quikaxe
-1 Leovold
-1 Birchlore Rangers
-1 Shaman of the Pack (it's upside isn't high enough to be worth the slot)
-2 Wooded Foothills
+1 Pendelhaven
SB:
-2 Pithing Needle (this is dependent on your meta and if you are running into a lot of decks such as Lands, Jace.dec, Turbo Depths needle is worth the slot)
-1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Cabal Therapy
I'm perfectly okay with playing 61 cards as I find it necessary now to have Scooze main. My biggest issue is filling the last two SB slots. I don't necessarily understand that current flavor of the month (Meekstone). Jitte has always been very middling for me, I would rather play the white splash and have Gaddock Teeg in the side with the rebirth of Miracles. Cards that I have considered are Sylvan Library, Thorn, Karakas + Crop (though crop can be played main), Wren's Run Packmaster. Unfortunataly nothing has really stood out as having a major impact and I've kind of resigned to throwing in a 3rd Surgical and a Needle/Jitte. I would consider running the Blood Moon package but that would mean altering the sideboard
IMO Both Leovold and Shaman are awesome. The mana usually isn't an issue with GSZ, Deathrite and birch lore.
I also don't understand the sudden rise of meekstone. And what was that about miracles reborn? :0
I think meekstone is for TNN/Delver decks...... but those are not our tough matchups imo. I am heavily considering going up to 4 gy hate spells (currently at 3 surgical with md ooze). The only matchups that truly terrify me these days are show and tell and reanimator.. everything else we can beat with smart plays and decent draws.
edit: and this new miracles deck looks fun to play but I'm not too scared of it. Maybe I should be..but I had enough practice vs old miracles that I feel like a fixed version of the deck should be a breeze.
Took this beast of a list to a Cash Tournament today and did well enough with it:
Creature (29)
1x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Wren's Run Packmaster
Land (20)
2x Bayou
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Dryad Arbor
2x Forest
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Pendelhaven
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Choke
1x Elderscale Wurm
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
That's a 61 card MD with all the bits and pieces I wanted to see every once in a while. All the 1-ofs had important moments and I never felt like I was in a spot I couldn't get out of. My deck misfired hard in the semis against Eldrazi (I mulled to oblivion both games and died to beatdowns - not even chalice or anything), otherwise, I feel like I would have gotten 1st easily as the winner at the other table was D&T.
Notably, the Elderscale Wurm came in G2 against my Elves opponent in the 1st round, sealing the win for me. Choke never actually hit the battlefield but was responsible for 3 different 2-for-1s thanks to FoW. Cabal Therapy followed by Thoughtseize were actually the worst cards in the deck because I cast 0 Cabal Therapys and the only Thoughtseize I ever cast was against my round 1 opponent (though it did take a Natural Order and buy me time to put said Wurm into play). Initial feelings are that I wanted MORE Thoughtseize effects and LESS Cabal Therapy since the only time I really want to be casting either right now is vs combo decks (I didn't even bring Therapy in vs my 1 Delver opponent since I felt like I just wanted to throw more stuff on the board for them to deal with). Not ready to pull that trigger though since Cabal Therapy can be such a house at times - especially when cast in tandem with Thoughtseize.
Notable factors in favor of Wren's Run Packmaster and Ruric Thar was how scared my opponents were when they saw those 2 cards. I had an opponent downtick a Jace to bounce a Packmaster (to no real advantage to begin with), drawing me a card off the Championed Visionary which lead to a combo kill the next turn and an opponent on Jeskai Bomberman (who I played against in the quarter finals) was so afraid of the Ruric triggers that he didn't even consider casting a Sudden Demise to deal with it, even though that would have left him at 1 life and wiped my whole board. Lesson learned - these cards are better than their text boxes say they should be - even against average-to-good players.
I never felt like I wanted anything like Meekstone, Leovold, or Shaman of the Pack, those abilities were just completely irrelevant in all the games I played.
(On a side note, this Bomberman deck I played against in the Quarterfinals was downright scary and makes all the lists I can find online look bloated and unrefined, that archetype might be a lot better than most people realize - akin to how Food Chain and Aluren got a ton better earlier this year)
Since Julian switched the art, I had the guy who altered my elves deck do a mockup. If only I can find 4 more S-Chinese Glimpse of Natures....
That's funny. Yours is better because it incorporates both cards' art, but when I saw Julian's Tinker Natural Order, I did the same thing and MSPainted the other two.
When talking art alterations on cards that will be played in higher level competitive events, remember that the art must be 'recognizable' and it's at the head judges discretion.
I like the Glimpse alter because the dude with the fishing rod is all most people remember about the card, but completely replacing the art with something else is rarely going to be approved.
It's a play on Julian's MTGO Tinker Natural Order alter
Hey guys and good morning :)
Just recently acquired the deck again and I'm playing the list Julian won the last legacy challenge with.
I'm having some difficulty choosing what to board out against ANT?
Currently I'm boarding out Glimpse and shaving on Symbiote/Visionary, but is that right or would you do anything else? :)
My boarding plan is:
+3 Surgical Extractions
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
-4 Glimpse
-2 Elvish Visionary
-3 Wirewood Symbiote
The reasoning is that you're lowering your creature count quite a bit, so Glimpses aren't nearly as good. And the game is just a race, so there's no need for the grindy card drawing.
There's an argument for boarding out Rec Sage, but with all our discard, I think they'd be tempted to play out a LED or a Petal (especially if they have another one in hand).
I'd love to hear other people's approaches though.
I only own two cradles. Is there any alternative I could use? Priest of Titania, Crop Rotation, something else? I saw a list from Japan placed 1st and he only had 2 cradles as well (GP Kobe Elves - 1st). I know for fact it isn't viable and it should be x4.
Also for curiosity sake, anyone running any spicy new tech? Would something like Tangle Wire or Ezuri be utilized in this deck?
No on ezuri. You can add crop rotation and maybe karakas/wasteland/bog package but then you are not as explosive. Tangle wire, for what?
Crop Rotation is fine. Viability seems fine too. Elves only ran 1-2 Cradle before the updated legend rule for obvious reasons (at least, IIRC) and it played almost exactly the same. The difference is that you're often down a card with Rotation, however if you use it to guard arbor, your first cradle, etc.. you can make it as powerful or more. Simply swap a grave hate card in your sideboard to a Bog and 2x Cradle 2x Crop will serve you well. You may even put a karakas in the side for reanimator.
Your deck will probably ever so slightly worse against a couple MUs, and a bit better against a couple others. No need to fret IMO
Has anyone tried any delve creatures like big fish or tasigur for board wipes? idea is, they wipe our board and we delve our gy away and play a 5/5 creatard
I'm currently on 2 Cradles and 1 Crop Rotation due to budget. I think it's fine, perhaps not optimal. In fact, Crop Rotation can occasionally make your combo turn even better, by letting you play two Cradles in one turn for example.
vs ANT;
-2 symbiote
-3 visionary
-1 glimpse
-1 rec sage
-1 cavern of souls
+6 discard
+2 surgical (if you run 3, board out 1 glimpse and 1 NO instead)
(also, if you have ruric thar...swap 1 hoof out for him)
Essentially I believe you still need the possibility of a turn 2 kill. That way you have a nicer variety of keepable hands...you can keep hands that go off turn 2 OR hands that try to play the disruption game (preferably both, but good luck on that 2%'er). Boarding out all 4 glimpses is not wise, imo. Lastly, trying to rec sage a LED or petal is a pipe dream--if they are casting those, they are likely winning this turn.
I believe people tested tasigur out when he first became legal and the consensus was he doesn't do enough...his ability will usually give you a nettle sentinel and 4/5 without trample isn't big enough to justify a slot in our deck. I would play him in opposition elves or a chaos build as a spicy 1-of; but I don't think he will be good enough for the stock list.
edit: also, the decks that have board wipes usually have jace, goyfs, or stp to take care of mr.bananas
Last edited by Shagstaman; 06-08-2017 at 10:11 AM.
That and a lot of the boardwipe is still Terminus...
I've been running 3 Gaea's Cradle and 1 Crop Rotation for years (though I haven't played competitively for much of that time for what it's worth), and I honestly wouldn't change that to 4 Cradles even if I had the 4th. I already get entirely too many hands with multiple Cradles, and Rotation has the potential for making a big combo turn early by acting as a second land drop/Cradle untap. I don't think I would make that 2/2 by choice, but if you're going that route for budget reasons it could open up the option for utility lands (especially Bojuka Bog) in the sideboard.
Also, to the people that have played Leovold: how does it compare to Edric, Spymaster of Trest (sorry if it's been discussed, haven't been around for a while)? Essentially, how important is the first ability of the opponent not drawing cards compared to you drawing extra cards in a grindy game? Edric obviously doesn't do as many things, but he's easier to cast (even when we run Bayous and no Trops), and his ability has a higher potential within this deck. Granted "within this deck" is not the same as "against the metagame," which is why I'm wondering if anyone has experience with him. I haven't played much lately, so I'm specifically wondering about the expected field since the recent banning.
Edric is cute, but not that great. He gets shut off by an opposing Leovold. I like Selvala, Explorer Returned more. Parley is a mana ability that can't be responded to. It does net your opponent a card though. Being 2/4, he can block Thalia's and other creatures. I wouldn't run him at a serious event though. Being a 2/2, he seems like a win more.
Leovold's first ability is pretty important. Against Reanimator, Storm, Grixis, and whatnot, he shuts off a lot of can trips. Less can trips means our opponent less likely to find a counter spell or establish their combo pieces. 2nd ability is great vs decks with Wasteland, Swords, Jitte, etc.
I wouldn't run any of them in a big event. I think current lists help us focus on a goal.
That's basically what I expected, I wasn't planning to put either in the deck, just curious what results people have had.
I'm assuming the list in the picture above is the current standard? Looks almost the same as my last list, so I shouldn't have trouble picking it back up.
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