[Primer] Elves!

[Zombie]

My favorite way to beat Humility is with Jitte. I haven't had any in my sb for a while, but I used to play two, and they were obviously very back-breaking in those situations. But yeah, it's not helpful against Moat. Sometimes I wish we had Jitte again so we could go into beat down mode without overextending as much as we have to. Even getting out the minimum amount of pressure with this deck is usually ~3 creatures since so many only get in for one.

Anyways, for those two cards, good ol' K-Grip may be your best bet.

For anti-overextension I'd just play Hivemaster

[danyul]

Jitte is a very interesting idea. I am definitely intrigued there. And IRT Hivemaster, I have always liked that card and wouldn't mind testing it as a singleton. But I imagine it gets exponentially better with each additional copy you run. Hmmmm.

[igri_is_a_bk]

For anti-overextension I'd just play Hivemaster

The worry from overextending is that a sweeper will x-for-one you and Hivemaster doesn't have any benefit over Jitte in those cases. Against Supreme Verdict, Perish, and Terminus, I'd rather have Jitte. They both lose to Deed and EE @ 2 but Hivemaster may have made a couple 1/1s along the way, giving him a slight edge against the latter only. In any case, Jitte looks like the clear winner for this purpose. I'm not saying it should be a staple or anything.

[Zombie]

The worry from overextending is that a sweeper will x-for-one you and Hivemaster doesn't have any benefit over Jitte in those cases. Against Supreme Verdict, Perish, and Terminus, I'd rather have Jitte. They both lose to Deed and EE @ 2 but Hivemaster may have made a couple 1/1s along the way, giving him a slight edge against the latter only. In any case, Jitte looks like the clear winner for this purpose. I'm not saying it should be a staple or anything.

Thing with Hivemaster is that you can aggressively bounce stuff back to your hand while maintaining ptessure. Then in response to sweeper bounce back hivemaster

[danyul]

Now *that* is interesting.

[Absolutflipz]

There's nothing wrong with discussing the inclusion of Hivemaster and Jitte, as they're different cards that serve different/multiple purposes.

Choosing of one should not exclude the other.

Jitte is great against us, it's also great for us as an equipment with so many bodies available, and provides a proactive answer (for the time being) to opposing Jittes or a reactive answer to Jittes which have already come down.

Hivemaster provides the above-discussed benefits in certain matchups. There are definitely places where you would side in both Hivemaster and Jitte, should you choose to include them in your SB.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Speaking in generalities, there is no comparison between Hivemaster and Jitte. A face-value discussion about the best equipment ever printed versus a creature that doesn't even see play would not be very helpful haha. We're discussing the specific use of either against sweepers. I still think the issue is heavily skewed in favor of Jitte for a few reasons.

To really abuse Hivemaster and not overextend, like you said, you need Symbiote in play. But think about it, do you really want to get behind Hivemaster + Symbiote more than Visionary + Symbiote in any instance? It seems safe to assume you'd have one Hivemaster in your 60, so you would likely have to tutor for it. Compared to tutoring for him, Visionary would be the better play a majority of the time. Drawing extra cards is a better plan than deploying a few extra 1/1 insects. Especially against a deck with sweepers, I want cards in my hand.

If we assume you do not have Symbiote, do you simply not play Hivemaster? That would defeat the purpose of his inclusion. Or would you drop Hivemaster and follow with Elves anyways? The second play would force you to overextend; the exact opposite reason we wanted to play him. And if you did have to play Hivemaster before Symbiote, he would do nothing to help once the sweeper does come down.

On the other hand, any random dude and Jitte would be a legitimate threat. Symbiote or not. Additionally, Jitte would stick around with counters after a sweeper, compared to the slow rebuilding process that Hivemaster would require. Besides, Scavenging Ooze is a much better post-sweeper plan when he has loads of fuel in the graveyard.

I'm not certain Jitte is necessary, but I am certain Hivemaster is not.

[danyul]

That makes a ton of sense. I will stop looking at foil hivemasters on eBay now.

[Zombie]

Mostly correct criticism, but I have to note that Hivemaster leaves you with cards in hand: The whole point is just spamming tokens with little actual card investment.

[Koby]

Mostly correct criticism, but I have to note that Hivemaster leaves you with cards in hand: The whole point is just spamming tokens with little actual card investment.

If that's the case, then run Nissa Rivane. Otherwise, your signature says it all.

[sauce]

people used to play this in the sb a while back http://magiccards.info/le/en/121.html

[chinEsE girl]

Caller is alright if you're worried about perish, but sadly terminus don't give a fuck.

Stupid fucking terminus.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Caller is really bad in my opinion. You can't afford to leave up three mana in anticipation of a sweeper that may not be coming.

[nudon]

Here are my thoughts on some of the recent discussion:

Caller of the claw - Fecundity is better but probably still not good enough.
Ruric Thar - I tried it main deck and wasn't impressed. Granted, it was against tezzerator and thus very bad against baleful strix. However, I like the idea of boarding it in along with NO#4 against storm.
Moat - GSZ/NO->sliver is a good answer for this. Also with multiple DRS + symbiotes/rangers, we have plenty of reach.
Humility - This is worse than moat but can still be beaten by turning guys sideways. GSZ->teeg can prevent them from landing this too (applies to moat as well). K-grip/nature's claim are options in addition to jitte.
Wirewood hivemaster - agree with igri.

Sweeper answers aside from symbiote + visionary:
EE/deed/plague - Progenitus.
Terminus/supreme verdict - Teeg.
Perish - Fecundity is best thing I can think of.

[Mr. Froggy]

I finished 6th at my LGS today, with 2 Craterhoofs and no Regal Force (they have become somewhat lackluster).

Round 1: Enchantress 0-2
Round 2: Infect (new to Legacy) 2-0
Round 3: Deathblade 0-2
Round 4: Maverick 2-0

Round 1 I almost got the combo, but I was missing 1 greeb for GSZ into Craterhoof. Turn after he playw RiP into Helm. GG

Round 2 Really easy match

Round 3 I had no outs, he kept picking off everything I played...

Round 4 Turn 3 Craterhoof FTW G1, Turn 3 Progenitus FTW G2.

[Zombie]

What did you keep G1 against Deathblade?

[danyul]

Just got home from Top 4ing a 72 man, 7 round event. Report in a few days. SB Ruric Thar was kinda good. Reverent Silence is actually a sorcery (news to me!) and hence, terrible. 2nd MD Dryad Arbor is very good. K I'm gonna go pass out now.

[Dice_Box]

2nd MD Dryad Arbor is very good.

Ok what are the real pros and cons of running a second? I have not seen a lot of talk on this.

Also, can someone run me thought the merits and flaws of running Living wish. I saw a decklist and while I will admit I am intrigued, I find myself not totally sold on the idea.

[Mr. Froggy]

What did you keep G1 against Deathblade?

I kept something along the lines of Symbiote, Visionary, DRS, land, land, GSZ.

Not sure if that was was correct?

Should I keep grindy hands or try to combo as quickly as as possible?

[Zombie]

I'd say that's about as great of a fair hand as you can get. G1 I'd just go for max grindyness or a fast combo start (as long as it's not Belcher style lose to FoW business). Basically they cut Souls so have no Jitte'd fliers so they can have worse Deathrites than us and have a lower blue count for more inconsistent FoW's. Means you just kill them. But do choose a plan and stick to it. If you do things halfheartedly you're just going to be playing to their bag. They're the kings of being halfhearted :P

Postboard I'd grab the Decays onboard in addition to the Therapies. Suckers play Bobs and Detention Spheres so a couple outs is good. Non-Hoof targets also shine here: They have no clock without equipment, and all their clocks can be bounce-fogged so just drown them in cards or Ruric's 3-thing* clock

*Gives the opponent 3 total something, whether it's spells or turns.