If there is so much SFM in your meta, why remove a copy of your own and lower your discard spells? Everything that matters is that you resolve your equipment first. You want to be the first to drop sfm and protect it. Discard picks their equipment out of hand when they fetch it, so wjhy would you lower it. The 1 thoughtseize/inquisition split really seems totally random and quite useless.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
I lowered the Stoneforge count to play a second Pierce, because I don't care if they tutor up an equipment as long as I can counter it. I also don't care that they have a stoneforge in play 'cause I just kill it so I can counter their equipment and get on with winning. I would much rather deal with the equipment than race the equipment. As for my discard "lowering", I never lowered it. I've only ever run 2x discard spells in the main. As for the split, IDK about you, but tossing a fifth of my life total kinda sucks, but discarding their Stoneforge is a plus. Therefore, the split. Any real advise on what you (Specifically) would change, or are your criticisms without reason? That's what all the criticism on this site lacks; reason.
-ABC
Your plan is really to have StoP + Spell Pierce to get rid of a Batterskull instead of just discarding it or SFM before your opponent can play them? Wut?
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Lemnear, now you are trolling in yet another thread. Also, some of your storm scenarios are based on even less. I play the matchup a LOT and I have that on my side,so unless you have something useful to say, please stop posting useless garble.
-ABC
How to deal with Stoneforge Mystic?
1) Counter it or answer it in before --> Thoughtseize, Spell Snare, Inquisition of Kozilek - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those
2) Kill it on fucking sight --> Swords to Plowshares, Disfigue, Lightning Bolt - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those
3) Have your own while hindering your opponent's --> Alot of own Mystics, Spell Pierces, Swords to Plowshares - Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those
You don't play the full set of Stoneforge Mystics, you play just a few Discardspells, and you don't overload on removal. You don't even have Snapcaster Mage to rebuy those few spells you actually have to deal with them. Tell me, dear Sir, how do you handle a Stoneforge Mystic?
EDIT: You don't even have Vendilion Clique or Lingering Souls to hinder or stall the opposing Batterskull.
Greetings
Excuse me? Isn't the main Feature of Esperblade lists to play T1 discard (stripping defense, counter, etc.) into a T2 SFM and so being faster than needing to have 3 mana to resolve a protected SFM via Spell Pierce?
If your meta is SFM-infested, discarding your opponents copies or, in case of a topdecked SFM, targeting the Equipment with your discard is more resource-friendly than removing SFM afterwards while countering the Equipment.
Try thinking about what I did say, before before throwing out my objection to your gameplan. Instantly calling me a troll, if I critique your 2-for-1 in terms of StoP+Spell Pierce vs. SFM is sure the Base of a healthy discussion.
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No, I prefer the turn one fetch into DRS, turn 2 Geist. It's quite the play, at least against the Stoneforge mirror. Try it, you may like it. As to "throwing out" your so-called advice, I didn't see any. Only a cocky, quick quip that pulled a single card selection into question, and moved into attacking a strategy that I didn't even mention, let alone infer. I merely posted my current decklist and asked for input on card choices, not for you to put words in my mouth, ignore the full list and move on. This is the list I play. I play against JunkBlade, TokenBlade (BW Sorin/Elspeth), and a R/W Mystic build that's it's own monster (To mention the most devestating ones at least). I lack in removal where they do not (Vindicates galore and then other removal). With that in mind, I stick to fighting the *real* threats and try to win quickly before they come online. Nothing I have other than counters and a single T-Seize (2 is no better, I tried that) can deal with a Batterskull-Once that resolves, it's a race, and not one I win often. It's impeccably difficult to win if their threats stick. Hence I would rather not waste my time weakly attacking their hand and they recover in 1-2 draws (and D. Confidants with tops), and then get overwhelmed by their permanent-based gameplan that often includes Lingering Souls. I mean, what are you gonna do, discard that? It doesn't do much except give them a tempo boost.
This game also has the random element to it, and there are many more things I would rather see in my opening hand than a discard spell against the mirror, but I believe the paragraph above indicates this. Discard is more for the unfair matchup and combo matchup than anything, hence the 2 extra discard spells in the side.
-ABC
I did not miss DRS into Geist which is an obvious focus being a 4-off. I just wonder why you don't support the duality of early plays.
Don't you often draw the short end in those SFM->B.skull vs. Geist battles?
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Well sure, but that's where smart mulliganing meets intelligent decisions and foresight. Not saying I win every game, as that's not a likely scenario or the truth, but I do well with it. I do support the duality of early plays, but I have yet to see where a single copy of SFM has cost me a match. It may have cost me a game, but I don't feel it has. I see one when I need it so far. Man, I have never seen a single card be the topic of such a debate anywhere other than storm...Why is 3x Stoneforge such a reach for you? If you look at the list overall, it's basically a swap for a Clique; doesn't feel like a power-trade. Ever brainstorm into equipment and have to toss them back because otherwise your SFM is a Squire?
-ABC
Well, just on general principle, I'd say that more Thoughtseize, Cliques, and Abrupt Decays would be better against a lot of SFM decks. Some Lingering Souls is also great against a lot of removal and opposing discard. Misdirection and EE are weak against SFM. Thoughtseize is an aggressive card, Spell Pierce forces you to slow your game down. T1 Deathrite, followed by T2 Wasteland/Thoughtseize + SFM is probably one of this deck's strongest plays. Geist is great, but the ground can easily be clogged for him. (You probably should consider SoFF over Jitte for this reason.) Supreme Verdict feels like a better SB card, but the meta can dictate that.
Okay, so what would you fellas suggest to be done to my list? I really am against dropping a Geist, but I may if it's warranted and solid reasons are supplied. I don't play the EE for the mirror specifically, but it's a solid card against tokens and TONS of other stuff. In my meta, I can't recall a time it felt like a dead draw. Misdirection is for discard. Hymn and other targeted discard is huge in the mirror. If I can MisD a single Hymn back at my opponent, it turns the game. I posted my list and asked for help; I am open for actual changes to the list. Please, I value the constructive input. Thanks.
-ABC
EDIT: @ Dzra: Correct. My game gets better post-board (2x A. Decay, 2x Vendilion Clique, 2x Discard although I haven't been boarding that in, cliques are 50/50 on my sideboarding it in for the mirror). I'm not trying to tank my other matchups by building strictly to beat the mirror. I do have a gauntlet run with a couple buddies today and would like to test an updated list if that's what you guys feel is a good idea.
I have no data or testing results to comment on 4/4, 4/3, 3/3 Splits between SFM and Geist and that wasn't my aim.
I was wondering how 2 Spell Pierce, Misdirection and 2 Discard-Spells perform in regards to the "stock" 6-Discard-lists I have seen and played against in the past and I was told about how important the T1 discard is in the meta to stick T2 Bob, SFM, etc.
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I usually try to minimize one-of "answer cards" that you can't tutor for, so that's why I was looking more at those for possible cuts. One-of Clique is fine because it's proactive and never really dead. Personally, I'd use those slots plus maybe the 4th Geist to add a 2nd Thoughtseize, 4th SFM, and a 2nd Abrupt Decay. You can make yourself even more proactive by cutting Spell Pierce for some Lingering Souls, but that depends on if you are worried about combo or not. I would rather have a Snapcaster than a Supreme Verdict MD in this deck, but like I said that's somewhat meta-based.
Oh and also, I'd definitely recommend trying the SoFF MD over Jitte. Unless you expect Elves or Goblins, I like the swords better for Geist.
I find it funny how you criticize us while you are clearly the one with an unusual train of thought. Not to be rude but if you want a healthy conversation try understanding why people criticize you and refrain from commenting on the community's ability to discuss.
My criticism wasn't without reason, i was just baffled by your decisions. Here's how you win the SFM mirror: You make sure you resolve your SFM first and get batterskull or jitte online and try to stop them from doing so. What do you need to do that? a maximum of SFM, removal, discard spells and eventually counters. You seem to have done the opposite.
With deathblade it is even more so the case because you don't play a reactive deck, there's no real way for you to come back from behind like esperblade can. You need to start with the advantage and keep it there. Starting with deathrite and geist is good but you want to maximize those strong openings so max out your SFM.
Now, why do i find your choice of discard spells weird. Why do you run discard spells? You want to either start out with them and screw their initial plan or you want to pick their bombs away before they can play them. If you run 1 of each, what is the reason of their inclusion? the chances you open with one are minimal and only one of the 2 can take care of a jace or batterskull. Some cards are good as one-of's like supreme verdict and vindicate because they are a specific answer that is needed in some cases. Discard spells, however, contribute to your gameplan of dropping stronger bombs than your opponent by stripping theirs away.
My problem with E.E. in this deck is that it's too slow. It eats your precious time and mana while you should be dropping good cards on the board and overwhelming your opponent. I haven't ever felt the need for it either. You are better off having some snapcaster mages as extra removal and bodies for your equipment. I also don't like your maindeck Supreme verdict. Your deck wants to develop the board. Why would you play a card that whipes your own cards away and will be dead most of the time? It's a good sideboard card against certain decks but again this is not a reactive deck like esperblade.
there's my "reason"
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.
Thank you for including explanations behind your choices and ideas. That's how people learn. Just because I win often in the mirror doesn't necessarily mean I am doing it to the best of my deck's ability, or my ability. I want to be the best player I can be, but I can't learn if there aren't reasons, only short, one to two sentence posts that tell me "Heh, that's what you are doing?! Stupid." Instead of offering solid reasoning, or at least nicely explaining why you think the way you do. I am, and I'm sure that at least a few others are, grateful for the players who don't condescend, but rather lend a hand to actually assist other players in a kind way.
So as to my metagame, token heavy as it is, instead of a full set of A. Decay split between the board and the main, would a single Decay and a single Maelstrom Pulse happen to be a good choice in the SB? What's the concensus on Decay vs. Vindicate? Vindicate, while clunkier and more expensive, does hit a Batterskull that resolved//stoneforge'd in, PW'ers, and more. Very useful card, but I fear it's falling out of favor.
Engineered Explosives is used strictly because of tokens in my meta. Sorin, Elspeth, L. Souls, and more are wiped for (2). Seems not so slow. Also, it's a catch-all, and I can get up to Sunburst 5 in my build. Seems so multi-faceted it's a shame not to play it. Yeah, it can blow my stuff up too. So what? It's not like you don't get to choose when to blow it up.
Also, is Surgical Extraction a better choice than Nihil Spellbomb? I don't know what one fills the 'yard hate slots better. Also, how many SB slots do you guys dedicate to GY hate? I only have 2x at the moment. Is that enough?
I apologize if I come off rude, I try not to. Just not very good at it. I value your opinions, that's why I get so frustrated when I see posts that hold no intellectual value, only the "you are doing it wrong" mentality.
Thanks for the continued help and tolerance. Lemnear, I'm sorry I was rude to you.
-ABC
I think a lot of card selection comes down to knowing your role and your gameplan. By adding Deathrite and Geist (or Bob), you are committing to a more aggressive gameplan than UW and Esper Blade decks. You want to sculpt your game around resolving and protecting a Geist or SFM. Esper can buy time with more Lingering Souls and Snapcasters. You want to take the advantage early with aggression (discard, SFM, Geist) and kill them before they can recover. Jace is more of a midranged card for you. When Deathblade Brainstorms, more often you are looking for pressure than answers. As opposed to Esper, where Souls and Batterskull protect a Jace while you Brainstorm them out of threats.
I prefer two Abrupt Decay to a Vindicate split (you could run all three). Abrupt Decay being uncounterable and Instant are both very nice. You can easily solve Batterskull battles by running SoFF (along with Clique and Thoughtseize).
So, after a long day of testing (mostly against Jund, not Punishing Jund) and keeping an open mind while keeping in mind what has been said in the last page or so, and talking with my test-buddy, my list has changed to a much more standard version. I would like to specifically thank Dzra and Lemnear for their input and patience with me, it helped a lot and I am a lot clearer on how/what to play. I still have some questions, but will wait until the end of my post to ask. The deck does still have a couple choices that are meta-dependent, but they will also change to a more standard configuration when I go to a more open/unknown meta.
Creatures: 12
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic (Went back up, not happy about it, but can't drop it until I test the mirror. Just feel like I would like to see Geist more...)
3x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells: 26
1x Umezawa's Jitte (Can't bring myself to drop it.)
1x Sword of Feast and Famine (AWESOME!!! Won me so many games!)
1x Batterskull
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek ("I told you so's" are in order)
3x Thoughtseize (See IoK's notation^^^)
3x Jace, tMS
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
Land: 22
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Island
1x Karakas
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
1x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
SIDEBOARD: 15
1x Maelstrom Pulse (1x Vindicate in an open meta)
1x Force of Will
2x Engineered Explosives (2x Vendilion Clique in an open meta)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity
So I do have a few more questions:
1.) Turn 1 on the play: I have a black mana source and a DRS and a Discard spell. I don't know what they are playing. I assume the discard spell is correct. Just need someone to let me know if I'm correct.
2.) What's the reason for the two Wastelands in the deck? I went ahead and dropped them for a rock-solid mana base. So far so good. I just need to know why Wasteland is a choice made by so many. What am I missing? Is my choice sub-par?
3.) Why is Jitte getting the cut? It's still awesome. I don't understand this decision.
4.) Is 15 blue spells too few for FoW/MisD? It is low imo. It works if I NEED it to, but otherwise I'm pretty reserved about countering anything. I'm not used to this tight of a ship, if you will.
Thanks for everything, I appreciate it. I'm sure I will have more questions in the near future, but for now that is all.
-ABC
This list looks way better, just a few things I'd like to add. When playing Esperblade I think it is correct to start with 4 Thoughtseize. Add as many Inquisitions, but start with 4 Thoughtseize. You aren't even playing Dark Confidants, so I think it's very safe to play the full set. Just grabbing everything is too good.
I know it's a trend to play 3 Force 1 Misdirection. I just can't get behind... What holds the insurance, that you draw your Force of Wills against Combo and the 1-of Misdirection against Decay.dec? Correct, nothing.
In addition to this points I'd like to add that you probably don't need the forest, especially when beein played alongside Tar Pit and Karakas.
1) In a more traditional Deathblade.deck I'd be playing Shaman. Why? Here is my reasoning, might still be missing something:
Shaman is better against Midrange, Control and Tempo, while being worse than combo. There probably is no meta where Combo is being played more than the other 3.
Plus, you have the ability of still play your Discardspell T2 alongside Mystic/Bob, which is better than playing t1 shaman t2 cc2-dude simply due to the fact, that you got your Shaman in play already.
Most Combodecks won't kill you T1. Shaman's value decreases quite a bit in the Mirror, if played T2 instead of T1.
2) Playing no Wastelands is totally fine, and my choice too. Why would one play Wasteland? Well, those playing Wasteland see Deathblade from the Midrange-angle, not from the Control's. They plan on T1ing Shaman, Then cc2-Bomb (Mystic, Bob) and Wasteland your land for maximum value. I think playing none is totally fine.
3) I don't know who would cut Jitte. I couldn't think of any valid reasoning, really.
4) 15 is very low, especially with the 3/1 split of Force and Misdirection. . The lowest I went while being victorious was at GP Strasbourg with Miracles was playing 4 Force of Will with a total blue count of 19. Snapcaster Mage could improve your blue count, just as a thought.
Greetings
Personally I'd rather play the discard as it lets me have a better idea what is going on. Even against non-combo, you don't want to walk into a Lightening Bolt or Rest in Peace. Playing Deathrite first does have a lot of merit though, but I still prefer discard (unless perhaps you have a double Deathrite hand then Deathrite is almost certainly correct.)
Wasteland is mainly there for two reasons... Problem lands like Maze of Ith or Grove and because it really shines with the acceleration provided by Deathrite. 90% of the time I'd hold them exclusively for utility land destruction unless you know they are already mana screwed (either from discard or seeing them miss land drops).
Speaking of mana, I'd definitely cut the basic Forest and probably be inclined to cut one of the Islands. Drop the Windswept and add another Misty Rainforest. I'd definitely want at least 2 Underground Seas and Flooded is your best fetch since it gets all your duals.
I dislike running more than two equipment, but I like SoFF or SoFI for Geist. If you aren't having trouble with clunkiness then you can still go with three, but cutting one of the two to the SB gives you more room for Blue cards.
15 is pretty low. I still don't terribly care for the Misdirection (kind of random, hard to find, doesn't play well with Sanctity). I'd try to squeeze in another Blue card or two in the form of Ponder and/or Snapcaster. I'd look at 1-2 IoK the third equipment, and Misdirection for best possible cuts. (Though I admit... I might like Misdirection in this deck over Leylines, possibly some in the SB would make it less random but you will be hungrier for Blue cards.)
The reasoning for Swords over Jitte is that Geist/Bob/SCM/SFM in traditional Deathblade lists have no evasion and are very fragile in combat. The instant +2/+2 and protection via equippin' changes this in a way Jitte cannot (it's not unusual that you lose the first creature in the process to gain the first Jitte-counters). Jitte only real shines if you face a lot of 1-toughness-creatures like you do against Elves, Bob, Lingering Souls, D&T, etc. but the moment you play against DRS, SFM or other tougher Bastards, Swords are to prefer.
The decision between Fire&Ice and Feast&Famine is a bit more tricky. Shooting potential blockers or forcing your opponent to block to prevent a free Shock can be devastating once you have control over the battlefield, but the Protection of Feast&Famine is awesome in the metagame and often acts as "shadow" within some metas which is an insane advantage if you run Geists aside from ignoring Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf all day. Thus the deck is pretty mana-intense, the untap-ability comes in handy to cast discard, swing for damage and follow up with Jace. I just want to add the removal-suit Jace + SoFF is: Bounce a creature of your opponent, swing with a creature holding SoFF and discard the bounced foe. It's a lock :)
Wasteland are mainly for Grove of the Burnwillows (Punishing Fire), Karakas (Vendillion Clique + Venser) and 12-Post.
I agree with the 4 Thoughtseize/2 IoK Split for the already named reasons by Dzra and chime in with cutting the Forest.
Enjoy your weekend fellas!
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