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Thread: Grixis Tempo

  1. #1
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    Grixis Tempo

    Been doing some testing of Young Pyromancer in a Grixis Tempo shell with Phazonmuant, here's where we're at so far. I've been very impressed with the card.


    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Young Pyromancer

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize

    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Forked Bolt

    8 blue fetch
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland


    Numbers may not be right, stole a lot of design from Canadian Threshold, but we've played games vs TES and Miracles to get to where it is now. Some notes on this - often you don't have a turn one play, which makes me think something is misbuilt. Do we need to try to fit Deathrite in here? Grim Lavamancer? Pierce / Snare / Stifle? Definitely save your Gitaxian Probes when possible to maximize Therapy and Young Pyromancer.

    Quick try at the sideboard, not fully undertanding what matchups are bad:


    1 Cabal Therapy
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Perish
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 Rakdos Charm

  2. #2

    Re: Grixis Tempo

    What is the proper number of humans to play before adding Cavern of Souls?

  3. #3
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    What does this deck offer that RUG doesn't?

    Rug has a 4/5 tarmogoyf for 1G. This deck doesn't offer any beaters.

  4. #4
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by saspook View Post
    What is the proper number of humans to play before adding Cavern of Souls?
    If we're playing 4 Daze, probably infinite. Or maybe as a 19th land? It's a reasonable sideboard card though.

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan
    What does this deck offer that RUG doesn't?

    Rug has a 4/5 tarmogoyf for 1G. This deck doesn't offer any beaters.
    This guy has consistently presented more power than Goyf in our testing and isn't vulnerable to grave hate. Also, spot removal is only ok against him. Black instead of green gets you extremely powerful, versatile disruption in the form of Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. We're not sure it's correct, but definitely worth exploring.
    Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.

  5. #5

    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Grim Lavamancer does a nice job of drawing removal on the draw from creature decks. Could be defacto Duress for your Young Pyromancer ... but his inclusion probably merits a basic Mountain.

  6. #6
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Whats the point of using probe? This is a tempo deck, not a combo deck to see if you are safe to go off.

    Why not just fill that slot with burns.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I've been testing a little with this similar list, similar to what I played 2 weeks ago at the store after boarding, but with Bob and Young Pyromancer instead of Talrand.



    4 Nivmagus Elemental
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Young Pyromancer
    (12)

    3 Ponder
    3 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Flusterstorm
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    (29)

    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Swamp
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland
    (19)

    Sideboard:

    1 Darkblast
    1 Extirpate
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    1 Rakdos Charm
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 Perish
    1 Force of Will



    Its entirely possible that the basics are irrelevant and should be gone for more duals, however I personally like having non-wasteable lands to fetch up a lot, but thats maybe not what this deck needs. As alphastryk pointed out that week, and certainly it has been my experience since, Nivmagus elemental rapidly becomes functionally The Abyss for your opponent, often being 7/8 or 9/10 by turn three or four with a single Flusterstorm or early counter-war over something. He can still get Decayed, however so can Delver, and I think its often a faster clock than Delver as well. He also blocks Goyfs for days, and against damage based removal you will often get to waste your opponent's Bolt or whatever by Dazing it, then eating the Daze and letting the bolt resolve. Also I think Probe is excellent in this list, as it lets you know exactly what spells are safe to eat with Nivmagus, and what spells you need to save for something more relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But winning out of nowhere takes away the fun of grinding out your opponents with Manlands. Nothing is more satisfying than a game of Magic where you throw away half the fun, and claim the other half for yourself and leave your opponent with zero fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Haven't you heard? The default color for cards being designed is blue. They have to remember to change the color when finishing the card.

  8. #8
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Well I'm here with this:

    (LEG) Grixis Delver

    Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Tombstalker

    Spells: 30
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Cabal Therapy
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands

    I'd like to have some Stifles in here too, and I may cut a Sea for another fetch, but that's all neither here nor there. Without Stifle the Wastes seem a little less relevant, and I'm not playing Hymn, so mana denial isn't exactly plan A.

    Tombstalker is better than 'Goyf. Always has been, always will be. Might look into cutting the Pierces for the card that kills something with toufhness less than the number of cards in your Graveyard, or a Dismember or something. Removal seems relevant in this format.

    EDIT: Also Prove is a tempo card, especially in a deck that's playing Therapy. It allows you to play less Lands, and evaluate what your opponent's plan is. Tempo is a combo deck that goes off over the first four or five turns. Probe is so good.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I think in tempo decks, stalker >>> bob. Also, cabal works great with young pyro and probe. But if you cut cabal for hymm, you can cut the probes as well for other cards. That's how I would approach the build.

  10. #10

    Re: Grixis Tempo

    If you're running counters and therapy with Pyromancer there is zero reason to not be running the set of Probes as well.

    TBH it looks pretty solid, and if I was interested in playing a different color scheme than Jund with Pyromancer I'd be all for sleeving this up and getting some test results for you.

  11. #11
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    I think in tempo decks, stalker >>> bob. Also, cabal works great with young pyro and probe. But if you cut cabal for hymm, you can cut the probes as well for other cards. That's how I would approach the build.
    Hymn is bad in tempo. You don't need the card advantage, you need to hit their key Spells. Hitting Lands is fine, but I want to hold Stifle and Pierce up more than I want to cast a Sorcery. Thoughtseize lets me do both.

    Also; Probe is too good with Pyroman, and you're cutting it for Lands. I think I'd have to add more lands to the above deck, as I don't want my hand to be Land/Waste/Pyroman and have to Muligan. Getting a Volc seems bad with 'Stalker. I really want to go Sea into Badlands, if anything. (Also, I'm not too up on the names of my duals. I mean the Rakdos one, obviously.)

    EDIT: Also, this is the first time I've had access to both REB and BEB. Do we want both, or just REB? I can't think of anything Res I'm bothered about, unless the new Chandra is a lot better than I thought.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    Well I'm here with this:

    (LEG) Grixis Delver

    Creatures: 12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Tombstalker

    Spells: 30
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Cabal Therapy
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    I'd play more Cabal Therapy and less Thoughtseize. Cabal synergizes better with Young Pyromancer :)

    What are the 2 missing creatures?

  13. #13
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt View Post
    I'd play more Cabal Therapy and less Thoughtseize. Cabal synergizes better with Young Pyromancer :)

    What are the 2 missing creatures?
    I don't think I'll ever play more Therapies than 'Seizes in this kind of deck. I like the synergy, but not that much. If you don't have the Pyroman it is often a really bad card. I would consider it in Dega, or even four colours, where I could use Lingering Souls, Elspeth, and/or Sorin for backup, or in Green for Garruk, but when I don't have Pyroman I would just prefer a 'Seize, and making a 1/1 with it when I do it still great.

    Also I'll have to find out what those two slots were. They weren't Creatures, but I cut some Spells when I read that I had 12. Probably Seize, Therapy, or Probe.

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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    I don't think I'll ever play more Therapies than 'Seizes in this kind of deck. I like the synergy, but not that much. If you don't have the Pyroman it is often a really bad card.
    I have to disagree with you on Therapy being bad pretty much any time except when your opponent has no cards in hand. At its worst its a look at the opponent's hand, and making sure that they don't have the card you fear most at the time. Also, even if you don't have Pyromancer in play, the therapy just sits there in the 'yard waiting for when you need another look at their hand or to get rid of some other threat. Most of the time Therapy is just straight up better than Thoughtseize, and even if you are bad at Therapying blind, in your list you have Probe and some number of Thoughtseize to help you out with what to name.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But winning out of nowhere takes away the fun of grinding out your opponents with Manlands. Nothing is more satisfying than a game of Magic where you throw away half the fun, and claim the other half for yourself and leave your opponent with zero fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Haven't you heard? The default color for cards being designed is blue. They have to remember to change the color when finishing the card.

  15. #15
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I'm curious why a lot of people keep saying Confidant isn't a tempo card? Tombstalker is basically uncastable if you want to play wastelands, and I'm not convinced you need another 'big man' outside of Young Pyromancer.

    Updated list:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    4 Dark Confidant
    1 Grim Lavamancer

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    Sideboard:

    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Perish
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Meltdown
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    1 Sulfur Elemental

  16. #16
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Here's my take on the Grixis Shell:

    4 Daze
    3 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Cabal Therapy

    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 Tombstalker
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Vendillion Clique

    4 Wasteland
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scaldng Tarn

  17. #17
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I like Thought Scour in a Grixis tempo shell. You can use it to feed Tombstalker, Grim Lavamancer, and/or Snapcaster Mage.

    It also combos with discard: you can use it to remove your opponent's two best cards, when (s)he hides them with brainstorm in response to your discard, like AJ Sacher did in his BUG deck a few months ago ( http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=51438 ).

    It also gives a lot more velocity, and helps you chain cantrips to create tons of elemental tokens. For example, with a Young Pyromancer in play, you can cast Brainstorm followed by Thought Scour at the end of your opponent's turn to add two 1/1 Elemental tokens at instant speed, giving you 2 more power to attack immediately.

    It can also put Cabal Therapy in your graveyard for value :)


    I think we should ask the same question BUG Tempo players asked themselves: do we want to play a "tap-out" deck that plays lots of discard, taps out for Bob / Young Pyromancer / Tombstalker, etc... Or do we want to play a deck that leaves mana open for counterspells / Stifle. The Team America players seem to have chosen the tapout style, prefering Tombstalker / Hymn to Tourach to Spell Pierce / Stifle, and playing Sinkhole in the SB. For Grixis Tempo, the choice is not as clear cut :)

    I think I prefer to be proactive and strip my opponent's hand with Cabal Therapy + Young Pyromancer tricks... In this case, stifling their mana development seems less useful: you don't really care if they have mana, when their hand is empty... RUG Delver creates virtual card advantage when stifling mana resources, since their opponent has a lot of higher costed cards stranded in their hand... But you don't create any virtual CA if their hand is empty...

    I'm also thinking about enchantment removal. I want to be able to remove a Leyline of Sanctity post-board against Show&Tell decks. I guess we can add 1 Tropical Island for a small green splash (especially good in Deathrite Shaman builds, where the green mana lets you remove creature cards and gain life against GY decks / burn). But I'm not sure what enchantment removal is most adapted. Krosan Grip is good against counterbalance, but it costs a lot... And it might be too late if your plan is to Krosan Grip on turn 3 and make them discard on turn 4 against S&T... Nature's claim is cheap, but cannot remove a Chalice at 1.

  18. #18
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I think that more burn would be welcome in a deck like this. Chain Lightning would be a great inclusion, while cards like Lava Dart and Forked Bolt (which I saw in the OP) would be great creature killers.

  19. #19
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    Re: Grixis Tempo

    Just a few comments:

    if you're using our manabase (ported from thresh), Tombstalker is uncastable as BB is not a thing you realistically produce.

    Snapcaster was in our initial lists but was surprisingly unimpressive, as you are not short on bodies or things to do.

    Dark Confidant is infinite gas and makes sure you always have things to do. Having only must-answer men makes you very hard to profitably interact with.

    I expected Probe to be cute and it would get trimmed / cut, but it has been just insanely good so far in testing. I would never want to cut below 3.

    I certainly never felt like we needed more reach / burn, as Pyromancer produces a huge amount of damage in most situations.

  20. #20

    Re: Grixis Tempo

    I've been a big fan of Dark Confidant in tempo builds for awhile now but the best place to use him seemed to be in Team America where 2 cost cards hurt a lot. I'm glad Grixis finally got some muscle thanks to Young Pyromancer!

    Greasefire!

    x4 Dark Confidant
    x4 Young Pyromancer
    x4 Delver of Secrets

    x4 Brainstorm
    x4 Ponder
    x4 Gitaxian Probe
    x4 Force of Will
    x4 Daze
    x4 Lightning Bolt
    x3 Cabal Therapy
    x2 Thoughtseize

    x4 Polluted Delta
    x4 Scalding Tarn
    x4 Wasteland
    x3 Underground Sea
    x2 Volcanic Island
    x1 Bloodstained Mire
    x1 Badlands

    The sideboard is still a work in progress but Pyroblast and Perish seem great. And yes, Gitaxian Probe is awesome!

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