Interesting list! Casting Tombstalker looks like it could be tough and it seems like you're light on removal, maybe consider shaving a Stifle? Thresh seems to be moving towards 3.Originally Posted by L0cke
As far as the board goes, it looks pretty rough. I think you have way too much grave hate for an open - consider cutting to 2 Surgicals. The meltdown was pretty bad in my testing, but 2 shatter effects seems reasonable. I really think you want tthe 3rd Therapy and 2 REBs, and a couple of Fire Covenants if you can find room.
Good luck!
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Strains and stresses over one of's and 3 or 2 of stuff.
Plays 61 cards.
I need a meme for this.
I don't like tombstalker at all.
it is primarely great against RUG/bug where it can't be answered by bolt/decay, and in both match ups you are favoured because of Young Pyromancer.
I found that in about 30ish games over the last week or so I have only not been able to cast Tombstalker (when I had enough cards in graveyard to delve it) twice, and once was vs Junk where I got Vindicated/wasted off of all black by turn 4, the other was this afternoon where I drew all my Volcanics and no fetches or Seas.
I think for the open I will be cutting the Meltdown, since its mainly for the million Chalice and affinity decks that show up at Super, and maybe the Extirpate as split second is basically irrelevant against most of the decks I will care about at the open. The Knight of the Reliquary decks also often feel difficult to beat as their men beat my men by way too much, so I definitely want submerge. Would you suggest dropping a flusterstorm and something for the REB's?
While Submerge is amazing and all, I've found Perish to be so much better. Killing Mongoose is key in the RUG matchup. Rough is also... rough especially in the non-Tombstalker lists.
Hi.
HOW THE FUCK DOES PEOPLE BEAT DEATH AND TAXES?
Regards,
Quas
I'm also on the fence about Tombstalker, mostly for the state mana reasons, but I wanted to touch on a related problem, which is the manabase in general. I'm running basics over Wasteland, because I want the option of playing around Wasteland and Blood Moon. If you're up against active Port + Waste, you've either already lost and should scoop, or you have an active mancer and enough countermagic/discard + probes and brainstorms to protect and activate it. I find myself fetching my basics first unless I'm in a position where I need a color now and have the wrong fetch (e.g., I need R to play YP and only have Sea Delta, but have protection to go now).
Several people have mentioned basics at various points in this thread, but the topic hasn't been addressed at any length, and I think we should at least be discussing it.
Two things helped me a lot. First was countering their vials, if they have to play fair on mana you can land a couple early threats before they do, or they cant deploy anything and just tie up your mana. Second was Izzet Staticaster out of the board. That card is a beast, comes down in end step, shoot mom, untap shoot mom again clears up the ground for your guys quite a lot. Or cast in response to them porting your lands during your upkeep. Its also a dude, so Thalia doesn't slow you down, and it hits every one of their men except SFM and Serra Avenger.
Nah, Flusterstorm is awesome. I like a Perish in the board as someone else mentioned, but Submerge is fine too.
Never ever ever let them get Jitte or Mangara-Karakas online. Otherwise it's not that difficult. I have an Electrickery in the board which has been awesome in that matchup. You have to be the aggressor with Delvers and swarm the board with Pyromancer.
No. We're a tempo deck with a fairly low curve, cutting Wasteland is stupid. We're also 3 colors, land-light, reasonably color intensive. Fetching basics is going to screw you as much getting Wasted will.
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My biggest problem is that perish will kill my Deathrites, which single-handedly can turn games around. So we'll see.
This is more what I'm getting at. Probably off-topic for the thread, but still relevant. I'll take the discussion elsewhere.
We're playing black and red. X/1 white creatures really shouldn't be a problem. In addition to options like Dread of Night, Virtue's Ruin, Grim Lavamancer, etc., I personally am a fan of Darkblast (plays well with Pyromancer and I'm playing a Tombstalker list, so it feeds Stalker as well). We play Red, so it's not like we have a shortage of great artifact removal options either for their equipment.
Fundamentally, being a tempo deck (per the thread title) means you're going to be susceptible to Blood Moon (at least we're playing Red). Wasteland hurts us a little more than it hurts RUG simply because they function on a generally lower mana curve, but we can still just play through fine since we generally operate on 2 lands. Ports can be annoying, but we have our own Wastelands as well as plenty of Instant / free spells.
I think the main problem in the matchup was that I had to spend 3 bolts killing his 3 thalias in concussive turns.. + He played 2x Restoration Angels maindeck, as well as just sword of fire and ice and jitte.
Didn't have force/daze for 1st turn vial both games, which was hard to deal with as well...
Anyway: Played this list yesterday in a tournament:
13x Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
1x Grim Lavamancer
6x Removal:
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Dismember
11x Cantrip:
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Gitaxian Probe
12x Counters:
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Force
1x Spell Pierce
18x Land:
4x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard:
1x Perish
2x Fire Covenant
2x Baleful Strix
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Flusterstorm
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Electrickery
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Submerge
Went 4-1-1 (drew into top 8)
Round 1:
OTD vs Sneak and Show
Game 1 I had an early delver and a confidant (which he forced)
He went 2x Lotus Petal, Island, Volc Island, Tomb by turn 3 and had Show and Tell. I forced, He brainstormed and forced, I forced again (spent now) and he played his maindeck flusterstorm(....) He laid griselbrand and game was officially good.
Out: 4x Bolt, 2x Dismember, 1x Grim Lavamancer.
In: 2x REB, 2x Flusterstorm, 3x Cabal Therapy
Game 2: I won by having a ton of counters, as well as a T1 delver, T2 bob, T3 double waste his volc and tomb.
Game 3: OTD. He played t1 mountain. I gitaxian Probe and he reveals 2x Petal, Grisel and City of Traitors. I feel pretty good, ponder on t2 to see if I find a land (kept a 1 lander with delver, reb, flusterstorm, probe, force, daze and volc). I don't find on the ponder, and shuffle and find wasteland(...). Turn 3 I flip delver, and land Young Pyromancer. He has drawn flusterstorm, SnT, Island for his 3 draws. Stupid aggressive line I took, and I got punished for it.
0-1 (1-2)
Round 2: Oops, All Spells.
He wins the roll and goes for a t1 Spy. I force, and he doesn't have the pact so I win.
Same as before, both in a out.
He goes turn 1 probe which reveals and I don't have force. He doesn't have the win, so I play Probe and he has a lot of mana but, but they are all ritual based. He doesn't go for it, as he doesn't have any protection vs my flusterstorm. T2 delver from me, and I just sit on it untill I have to counter his spells with flusterstorm etc.
1-1 (3-2)
Round 3: Grixis Delver (THE MIRROR!)
Game 1 I keep a hand of stifle, delver, daze, ponder, waste and 2x fetch OTP.
T1 delver vs his T1 delver (I daze, he force back)
t2 wasteland his land, play ponder, see delver, bolt, probe. Draw delver, reveal probe to t1 delver, play t2 delver, play probe and see he is stuck on mana. he lands a confidant but I get another waste + a stifle in due time, and I chip away untill he is a at 6 life with 2x delver on board and a bolt in hand. He blocks one delver and goes to 3, and I play young pyromancer which he forces. I take 2 from bob, goes to 11 and he passes.
I play bob, and he forces (he is spent now) and I show him the bolt.
Out: 4x Daze, 3x Force (OTD)
In: 2x Strix, 2x REB, 2x Fire Covenant, 1x Electrickery
G2 I just have, he has all creatures, I have all removal (empty board by t4). (4 life to kill 2x Bob and 1x Delver with covenant, value!)
I land Pyromancer, and just grind him down with it. He kept a hand of basically all lands and creatures.
2-1 (5-2)
Round 4 vs Rakdos w. Deathrite+P. Fire
G1 I just go t1 stifle your land, t2 confidant, t3 bolt deathrite, waste your land play delver, and game was good.
I thought he was regular Jund, he I Brought in Perish
G2 he goes t1 Thoughtseize (take bolt), t2 deathrite thoughtseize (take covenant), t3 bob. I had no way to interact with Bob that game and he just won on the back on Bob.
G3 was just the same as G1, where I just tempoed him six feet under.
Matchup was so coinflippy, but I won the die roll so I was happy :)
Round 4, Mono-U omnitell.
OTD
He resolved an early Show and Tell, and had both pact+force for protection. The last 2 cards after SnT was Omni+EtI. GG, off to game 2.
Same as vs. round 1.
Both G2 and G3 I just had an early Bob, and won via the card advantage. The final game, I REB'd 2x Cunning Wish + Dazed a 3rd and I had double flusterstorm, force (+blue card) as well as 2x daze in hand when I double wasted his 2x tombs with him on 5. Pretty easy matchup, I think, due to the massive amount of permission (+ Therapy).
Drew with U/G infect in R6, so we could get something to eat.
Top 8:
Had no artifact hate in board (No1 had smash to smithereens) and got paired vs fucking DnT with maindeck resto angel as well as Sword of Fire and ice. Both games was sad for me. Worst matchup for me in the entire top 8.
Top 8 consisted of:
1x Sneak and Show
2x UWR Delver (eventual winner)
3x Mono-U Omnitell
4x Grixis Delver (me)
5x Death and Taxes (eventual 2nd place)
6x U/G Infect
7x U/W Miracles
8x Mono-U Omnitell.
Won about 45$ in ChannelFireball Credit.
The winner won about 80$ in CFB Credit + A FTV:20.
Tournament was a blast, and will keep on playing and testing this deck (Going to BoM Paris in november, where I'll likely be playing this list + another sideboard).
Sideboard config as of right now:
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Electrickery
2x REB
2x Flusterstorm
2x Fire Covenant
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Perish
1x Dread of Night
1x Surgical Extraction (replaceble card. As of yet, I haven't met any M/U's where I'd want Surgical.
I am thinking about dropping the spell pierce in the main for a cabal therapy, and add something else in the sb - or perhaps just keep the 3rd therapy in the sb (in order to go up to 4 vs combo).
Deck is performing insane vs. anything but d&t...... Stupid white weenie.
I've played Grixis at a number of local events recently and done well. List below. To recap quickly:
Saturday, 3-0-1 cut to top4, then 2nd at a 30ish person tournament. 1st got a Force.
2-1 Junk (w/ Stage-Depths) - cantrips allowed me to draw more relevant spells than him, and he never got an opportunity to Depths. Tombstalker closes.
2-1 Agent BUG - close games. I mana-deny him in G2. Game 3 I drop Tombstalker in a tight race with Tarmogoyf and narrowly get there with burn.
2-0 Big Zoo - Still a thing in my meta. Similar to Junk, cantrips draw me relevant spells and I am able mana-screw him by killing dorks and wasting. Tombstalker closes.
ID with UWR landstill. We played a bunch of G1s for fun and I crushed him 3-1.
2-0 Big Zoo - Same deal.
0-2 UWR Landstill - I guess he put his gameface on. G1 I keep a hand with 2 cantrips but no threats and am slow out the gates. He has removal + Snapcaster into removal. G2 I have nothing but men and only 2 lands and am slow out the gates. I do missequence though. So I have Pyromancer, Bob x2, Delver, and 2 Dazes at one point. I drop Bob, he plows with 1 mana up. Fine. He passes, I dropped Bob again, where instead I should have dropped YP. I fought his Snap -> Bolt with 2 Daze but he had the Force. I then dropped YP with no spells in hand and he killed it then killed me.
Sunday, 3-1, 12ish person tournament
2-1 Miracles - He had Punishing Fires, but fortunately I was able to dodge them. G2 CB killed me, then G3 Sulfuric Vortex very easily closed G3 after getting a couple swings in with creatures that got killed.
0-2 Agent BUGr Aluren - Yup. Played against Whippoorwill and he crushed me, not close. Very innovative and interesting deck! Value creatures going on anemic beatdown won the games, but I had to respect the combo so couldn't just board like against Agent BUG.
2-0 Miracles - I was able to mana-screw him when it was relevant and slowroll my threats so he had to burn Terminuses. Vortex won G2, but probably wasn't necessary. This matchup seems very very good.
2-1 Infinite Cunning (Mono-U Omnitell) - I somehow managed to snag g1. I boarded in like 10 cards, but he won g2. G3 I stripped his hand. Therapy is awesome.
Monday, 3-1, 35ish person tournament
2-1 Sneak & Show - He got g1, but didn't resolve a relevant spell sideboard games.
1-2 UR Nivmagus - Joke deck, right? I guess if there's no Abrupt Decays in the meta it's a fine choice. I think I boarded wrong and could have played tighter. G3 came down to topdecks with both of us in single digits, but didn't get there.
2-1 Miracles - Counterbalance is good, but Sulfuric Vortex is better
2-0 Miracles - This guy was playing a build without Vortex and with some Crucibles and Snapcasters. He didn't really stand a chance.
I'm liking the deck a lot. It has so much value! Also playing with quad Probe is very, very sweet. I think the deck is better suited to being somewhere on the board-control or aggro-midrange control spectrum instead of pure tempo like the SCG winning decklist. Stifle is good in Thresh, but Pyromancer encourages you to play a little bit longer game. I've built my deck to reflect that. It gets tempo draws, but can also stand up to more diverse late-game strategies than Thresh (I believe). Tombstalker is unreal. I just do not understand how people aren't playing more of him. He wins almost every race and is bigger than almost all removal and creatures. And finally, the list. It's similar to what I was running before.
// 14 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
1 Grim Lavamancer
// 28 Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
// 18 Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Wasteland
// Sideboard
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Electrickery
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Perish
1 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
I'm really torn on the 3 additional disruption slots. I don't believe Stifle is the right choice (although it has done well). Snare has been good for me so far, but I'm not sure it's better than Pierce. The games that I've lost have been to lots of 1-cmc removal and Show and Tell, so maybe it's better to play Pierce? I'd welcome thoughts on this.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Played this deck at SCG Seattle. Started off strong with 3-0, then lost 2 straight to Meathooks and Burn, then essentially stopped caring. Ended up 4-4 (drop to cube).
I can post a tournament report if anyone is interested. Otherwise I won't bother.
As far as the deck moving forwards, I definitely feel like it has some nut draws and some unique appeal. I'm very ambivalent about Tombstalker. It's very good many times and won a couple of tight races, but it might be the case that it causes your mana and other deckbuilding choices to just be worse. I really should try out the 4 Stifle list to see how it is.
As far as the highlights, I won against Joe Lossett! It was close, but Miracles matchup is definitely favorable. I lost 0-2 to Elves, but I feel like I made some decisions incorrectly because I've never played against Elves with tempo. It's way harder than playing against it with Miracles or TES.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
You should cut them.
Tombstalker was the least impressive part of the deck when I started playing it.
I cut it early, and haven't looked back at all.
I wouldn't mind a tournament report :)
hello
first of all, sorry for my english
i have seen that some people like eric hill (winner scg with grixis) play 2 baleful strix in side
someone can tell me why ? against what match up ?
Futhermore, what do you think about replace fow by cabal therapy main deck because we play 4 probe ?
Thanks for answers =)
I will publish my list tomorow to have yours advice =)
Strix is an amazing card right now: It cantrips and blocks everything from the other fair decks (Other than mirran crusader).
No, you need FoW. It is usually correct to side them out for cabal therapy in g2, but it is needed to play them main vs combo etc.
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