how have you found sylvan library to be? to me, it seems pretty good, but kind of random on the other hand...why not senseis top? seems like it wouldn't be as good if you top decked it late game and you need a combo piece...on the other hand, once it's out, it will help you find the pieces you need...with only 2, the chances of drawing one early on isn't super high...what is your take on the library? just curious
The Fish deck I was referring to is U/W/b. It is much tougher than Threshold for the very reasons you stated. It runs Stifle, Plow, and Mage maindeck. Grunt is also maindecked, and can occasionally be a problem in that it will shuffle burned trinkets back where you can't reach them. In the sideboard it runs Needle and Duress. No Threshold deck can match the pure hatred in these cards. Needle is probably the easiest to deal with, then Counters, then Mage. Stifle and Duress are the worst, which makes Fish the worst.
Sylvan is somewhat a place holder in the deck. It is golden against any Control or Aggro-Control deck since you can spare life to draw your combo. The amount of Fetchlands let you get the most out of it. The reasons there are only two are first, there is no more room. The other cards are not replaceable. And, it is horrible against Aggro.
Top has been exhaustively tested by several of us, and deemed a poor choice. Even running three, it couldn't be used effectively in time. The worst part was this it is an awful mana leech in a deck that can rarely spare it Sylvan when resolved needs no additional mana, and can just draw you straight into the needed cards.
~ Team Unicorn MottoOriginally Posted by MacGruber
I think this is one of those decks we should stick Exirpate in. Probably sideboarded but we need it there non the less. The ability to handle all Swords to Plowshares by taking card of one is a huge matter. Our 8 discard effects will help find targets easily.
Rather than run Deed in the board perhaps Hymn to Tourach will better combat the bad matches of Thresh and Fish. The deck has a decent match against aggro already by simply casting Gamekeeper. Thoughts?
Now playing real formats.
Okay, so Parcher drew my attention to the source, since this thread has been mildly necroed.
Exterpate in the SB? Hrm. That might be interesting, I'll admit, my sideboard has been in shambles, but that's because I moved Deed to the main, and then took out the infest.
I wrote an extensive 10 game report on TMD, here at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.ph...7773#msg457773
My list has changed however, to this:
//NAME: C:\Documents and Settings\Tash\Desktop\MWS Decks\GoldenGrahamsv3.2.mwDeck
4 Duress
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Bayou
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Living Wish
3 Sylvan Library
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Innocent Blood
4 Tainted Pact
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Scrubland
1 Chromatic Star
3 Gamekeeper
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
// Sideboard:
SB: 1 Gorilla Shaman
SB: 1 City of Brass
SB: 1 Auriok Salvagers
SB: 1 Orzhov Guildmage
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 3 Infest
SB: 1 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Gamekeeper
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
Like I said, Sideboard is in shambles. I'm thinking 6 infests are a bit much. Maybe exterpate in the SB. It might be worth trying.
I also haven't tested the Swarm, I just want to try it.
I dont like your lack for Innocent Blood. I find it a manditory answer to lackey. Its also a house against Meddling Mage and Jotun Grunt.
I ran Sylvian library in the deck and decided it would be better replaced by Nights Whisper. The card draw is immediate and its a great way to fight the threat of Counterspells.
Last night I tested a few games against gro and found Grunt to be a pain in the ass since he eats Therapy out of the yard and provides quick beats. My hand destruction needed to focus on Swords to Plowshares so I could combo off, I needed to fight counterspells by simply casting numerous Keeper/Salvagers. Nights Whisper will help by giving us more card advantage.
If by using Swarm you refer to playing him against counterspells dont forget you cant add creatures to the deck without severly messing up Gamekeeper. He can be kept as a wish target obviously.
Im trying to find ways to make the deck more consistant. Anyone familiar with Golden Gun my Reanimator deck in the N&D thread knows the shell based off Pull from Eternity. You combine the card with the already played Tainted Pact, and Serum Powder to power into a god hand. The deck would contain a small Reanimator strategy to get Salvager/Keeper into play after using Pull from Eternity. id imagine Reanimate would help combat countered Keepers anyways.
Ive done alot of testing and the consistancy of Golden Gun was amazing. I got turn one Akroma's constantly. The problem was my opponent would find and answer before dying. Salvagers would fix this issue by winning without the use of multiple combat phases.
Anyone more interested in this concept should help me try it out. Im working on the list now, Ill post it either here or in Golden Gun when its finished.
Now playing real formats.
Out of curiousity has anyone thought of putting four Xantid swarms in place of duress? It seems like it would give a much better thresh and solidarity match up.
I reitterate the fact playing Xantid Swarm really fucks up what Gamekeeper does when he dies. If your familiar with the deck you wouldnt suggest that.
Now playing real formats.
Thanks for the beat down Bane....It a very dumb suggestion on my part...and considering i woke up like 25 minutes ago...I should be cut some slack here...
I understand why now....ANd ive been play testing the deck for about a month now and will be taking it to a legacy tourni here in washington. If you all want i will take notes and post the results.
Sorry to be a dick but it was just mentioned on post before yours. Definitly post your results. The only thing this deck has missing is a lack of attention. Its close to tier one and the numbers it's put up prove it.
Now playing real formats.
Here is the list i'll be running....I took parchers list and made some changes to it...So if it does well, Parcher gets the creddit for it...
As for the decklist, here it is....
Lands:
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 PLains
2 Snow-covered Swamp
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Snow-covered Forest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
Spells:
3 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Tainted pact
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Innocent Blood
1 Chromatic Star
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Sylvan Library
2 Reanimate
Creatures:
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers
Sideboard:
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gurilla Shaman
2 Harmonic slivers
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Hymn to Tourach
Any last minute thoughts and suggestions would be great.
I know Parcher finds it useless but I like Kjedorean Dead as a wish target. You want Living Wish to read "1G: Kill Keeper" and the option of doing so with a land drop is terrific. But if you've already made a land drop for the turn you dont want to be out of options. Turning Living Wish into "1GB: Kill Keeper" is fine.
You can probably cut one Harmonic out of the side since there are very few situations where you'll be wishing for removal twice without already being dead.
I see the need for Meddling Mage removal in the board also. This can be Cabal Pit, Bone Shredder, or Gilded Drake + therapy flashback.
Now playing real formats.
I played this deck in a local tourney today and there were a couple of times I wish I would have had a bone shredder in the wishboard...
Well, Bone Shredder has been in and out of sideboards before. It's a good card for this deck, I just haven't found much use for it lately.
With 4 Innocent Blood, 1 Pyrite and 1 Aether maindeck I usually can deal with one Mage easily. If they get two before you can go off, that's a huge problem. But most of the decks that run him have few creatures in general. Slivers, for instance. But if you metagame for them you've already lost.
Please remember that this is not just a combo deck. I have won as many games against Threshold by swinging with Salvagers as I have with LED. Even the non-Hatfield versions only run 12-13 creatures. They will never block with the Mage, and the Mage can't get through Salvagers. If you only have Gamekeeper, they still will not block, as they don't want to chance a Salvagers even if you are kold on LED. They will also tend to sac their larger creatures to Innocent Blood to keep Mage on the board. This is where you want to Wish for Guildmage. He becomes a 3 point a turn swing. Two points of damage, then you gain a life. Even a Sliver or Monkey will help, as since they won't block, you are often trading two for two. With two or three creatures, they have to keep the Mage home, which gives you 2 for zero in the damage race.
Post board, Deed and/or Massacre makes Mage a non-factor. There are much worsecards they can sideboard in.
I have found with 4 Innocent Blood, 4 Cabal Therapy, and one Tower, I never used the Kjeldorn. I just don't think it's needed. If you have room, great. But as Tash mentoined, the sideboard for this deck varies widely. I don't have anywhere near enough room for such a narrow card.
@Beebles: Stronghold has been tested, and found wanting. The ability to use it at instant speed is mitigated by the fact that this deck taps out a lot. Even if you have a game in which it would be good, your opponent should find a hole to bypass it.
Hymn is a fine card, but this deck needs Deed. Why? The three worst cards against this deck are Mage, Needle, and Stifle (Gamekeeper trigger). Without Deed, Needle will always name Salvagers. With Deed, they can lose both their Mage, and Needle if they don't name it. Even if you only run two or three for show, you have to keep your opponents playing honestly.
Reanimate seems odd. Gamekeeper should never be in your graveyard. Salvagers should only be in play if you are winning, or playing against a Control deck. Countrol decks tend to put Salvagers where you can Wish for them. Burn-type decks are the only ones I can think that might put Salvagers in the 'yard unless someone gets lucky with a Hymn, and you don't want to be losing four life against Burn for any reason.
Lastly, do what you have to to up your Living Wish count to four. It's the most versitile card in the deck, and multiples are almost always welcome.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Rather than Kjedoran, Shredder seems like the candidate if you can fit it.
@Reanimate I agree. The only matches where it would work are ones against discard and there arent many.
@Hymn. I also found it lacking. The original The Game used Hymn in the maindeck but they didnt use the Salvagers shell and had the room. As a sideboard option Deed is much stronger.
This is my newest list.
Lands: 20
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
Spells: 35
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chromatic Star
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Pernicious Deed
Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers
Sideboard: 15
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
Im going without Tainted Pact for now. Its good and all but I think both Living Wish and Infernal Tutor are stronger. I really want to fit the Deeds maindeck and I think thats the best way.
Now playing real formats.
I agree with your list but have some questions. First: Why mox monkey? What does he add?
Second: In testing I have found it ok adding some Gemstone Mines and they rarely died when it mattered. Have you considered that?
Mox Monkey is ideal for multiple Pithing Needles or Tormod's Crypts, The decks most common enemies. I havent tried Gemstone Mine but I like fetches and duals.
Now playing real formats.
Ok, I can understand, but you can really only get him off a Wish-LED... Which means your taking out a single City Cup or you have to pay 7 more mana to eat a 3sphere.. Therefore, It seems like you want monkey after your going off... Which seems hard.
In testing against stax and other simular decks (Wildfire Stax, Sun Tower, and the original..) I had to hope he only got 1 and I could Sliver it out. If not, I scoop. Its unfortunately really that simple.
Sorry to necro this thread. With Goblins being more and more played, has anyone else considered a red splash beyond mox monkey? This would give us clasm as removal and a keeper outlet, and the awsomeness that is ancient grudge to fight pithing needles along side pernicious deed. Just a thought.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Short answer is that Goblins is one of this deck's easier matchups. They can't attack through Gamekeeper unless it is lethal. Innocent Blood slows them down enough for us to combo off. Then we have some combination of Deed, Massacre, and Infest to sweep if the combo becomes delayed. Post board, Deed deals with Chalice, Crypt, and Pillar easily. Plus, the Wishboard can grab individual answers to these.
The main reason, both outside of, and including Goblins, is the problematic manabase of this deck. Since it needs three to four lands to operate without accelerators, more than a single Dual for a splash of color becomes inherently dangerous. The deck need multiple Black, and Green, with a splash of White occasionally. The single Badlands usually only acts as a Lotus Petal to answer specific cards. With eight Fetchlands, and only 19-20 lands total, each land becomes highly important. Allowing the opponent an opportunity to take advantage of us having to grab an off-color Dual, just to splash for a color that does little more than the cards already available is not worth the risk.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Well incase anyone isnt on the ball with Future Sight cards theres the new tutor Summoners Pact which cost 0 mana and fetches a green creature. The first thing I thought when I read that off the spoiler was Gamekeeper! Ive had alot of games with this deck where Living Wish + LED was game over. LED mana is ridiculous to use off a tutor or a wish. We used to need the 1G to cast wish first, now we can pay 0 and float our triple green. This will obviously give the deck much more consistancy.
Heres my revised try at the deck..
Lands: 20
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
Spells: 35
4 Living Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoners Pact
4 Innocent Blood
4 Chromatic Star
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Pernicious Deed
Creatures: 5
3 Gamekeeper
2 Auriok Salvagers
Sideboard: 15
1 Gamekeeper
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Phyrixian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 City of Brass
1 Orzhov Guildmage
3 Massacre
2 Defense Grid
Pulling a Keeper out of the deck makes things easier as far as your win trigger goes. You'll dredge through more combo pieces reaching fewer creatures, and more likely hit a Salvagers instead of your other Keepers. Not needing as much mana during your combo turn will more likely give you the 1W needed to activate Salvagers. Is anyone else as excited about this?
Now playing real formats.
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