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Thread: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

  1. #1441

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    @1
    Two forms of interaction are certainly not necessary against combo (countering being the superior one because it prevents topdecking into outs and turn-1-kills otd). In fact a deck like Shardless BUG is so mediocre against combo (though it has FoW and Discard) that it started splashing white JUST to have Meddling Mage for the combo matchups.
    Xantid Swarm is pretty garbage against my 4 Bolts and 2 Golgari Charms. Speaking of storms you pretend like Storm never beats a Thoughtseize. When they have (put) a Tutor on top it can happen that they just laught at you getting one of their 3 rituals/artifacts, going for Past in Flames/Ad Nauseam next turn.
    Also Discard doesn't prevent your opponent from topdecking an enabler for his combo. It's kinda like BUG plays against the opponent's hand, RUG is playing against the whole deck. The disadvantage RUG has here is that they don't know about their opponent's hand, but they already have topdecks covered in their head because they already account for these cards. And often times, you just have to play to your outs and it's enough.
    I'm also not saying that RUG is superior as it has certain weaknesses like Carpet of Flowers or a quick Empty the Warrens (reason why I like Golgari Charm), I'm just pointing out the strengths that imo get often times neglected when comparing these decks' plans.

    @2 Yes, because I waited longer with Brainstorm, I'm in a better position. The reason for that is that often times you can pretty much divide your deck into lands/creatures/combo-hate when you look at it. It's vital to have the lands and creatures at the start, but the longer the game goes ("long" meaning past turn 2) the less you want lands and (more) creatures. You have to filter really hard to actually get to combo-hate*.
    With BUG you often have to Brainstorm if you have (almost) no action in hand, digging less deep (trying to find discard-sorceries). When you keep Brainstorm up for the worst-case and are able to cast it perhaps several turns later because the opponent DIDN'T go off this turn you had nothing in hand, you get rewarded by being able to shuffle away more "garbage" that got stuck in your hand.

    @3
    My creatures might be smaller, but my Delver flips slightly more often and I have Bolts so it should be kinda even. Which Combo-decks play REB? Painter and Show&Tell? Well, against Show&Tell I have my own REBs so it kinda evens out, right? And against Painter thanks to my own REBs I can destroy Bloodmoon when they go off and stop them, so it doesn't seem that bad. REB seems pretty good against combo that play it themselves imo.
    To the Show&Tell Matchup: It's one of the best for RUG because they have to fight over a single expensive spell (at least cmc3) which is just awesome when you rely on stifling their mana, spell piercing and dazing them. Thoughtseize is pretty good here as I know, but Hymn e.g. is sometimes just bad when you're unlucky. Relying on it sometimes just costs you the game and is really bad when they e.g. Pondered or Brainstormed, leaving an important spell on top.

    *It's irrelevant here if that's a Thoughtseize or a Spell Snare here (your example of spell pierce which is rather bad against Storm is better against Show&Tell), Combo loses to a hand full of counters as well as to a bunch of discard with counter backup if played correctly. Even without Gitaxian Probe I can tell how to play (sometimes to my outs) a lot by which cards I have in my hand.

  2. #1442
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    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Manipulato View Post
    Does anybody know what Tomas Vlcek (10th place) played at that turney, he's known for playing 4c Delver too I think, would be great to get his list too.
    Miracles, I guess.


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  3. #1443

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    So I'm working on this deck because of a peculiar local meta, dominated very sharply by other Delver decks, Miracles, and Storm. I'm scrapping any and all planning for other matchups.

    The MD I've got going on is the same as the one on the first page, the "Official burg.dec" with one change, switching the TNN out for a Sylvan Library. I love Sylvan Library, and when I think of the reason to play green I think of this card before Goyf. So there's that.

    What I'm mostly tinkering with is the sideboard here, and this is what I have so far.

    2 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Dark Confidant
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Vendilion Clique

    ...so I haven't 100% neglected every other matchup, but I'm directing my thinking towards Miracles/Delver/Storm specifically. The Delver family is diverse also, featuring RUG, BUG, Grixis, and UR Delver. My idea is to use Dark Confidants as double duty in the Delver mirror and against Miracles, with Liliana of the Veil doing double duty against combo and Miracles.

    My worry, aside from the simple possibility of hitting other matchups for which I'm completely underprepared, is that these Delver folks will be bringing in extra removal. I am not, although I do have extra threats. I also have no answer to a zombie fish, as Lily can't come in against a mana denial deck with my tenuous mana configuration.

  4. #1444

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    The list in the primer is very outdated. Here are my comments:
    - You have to play all 4 Shamans, playing less then 4 is simply wrong imo.
    - I would only play Mongeese if I would expect a lot of Miracles and/or Lands, otherwise Angler is way superior.
    - Confidants in the SB are wasted slots, Miracles and Combo are already very good matchups.
    - I have never tested Liliana, but BB in the casting cost seems prohibitive in a 4c deck
    - Same goes for RR from Vortex (did test this one)
    - I would add some grave hate in the SB
    - I would add another Golgari Charm, a Forked bolt and a couple Submerges if you expect a lot of Delver mirrors
    - edit: forgot a 1-of dismember; also a must have in sb

  5. #1445

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    Thanks for the advice. I managed to get some testing in today against BUG Delver and can reflect on the suggestions you made. Most of all, I think I must have somehow missed how similar this deck is to RUG. The last thing I tried was Grixis Delver and YP and Therapies, but the list that I miss was that sweet Noah Walker DTT deck. Both of those play out very differently than the way this does, but I think I like the change.

    Nimble Mongoose was great in those games against BUG, but Angler would have been at least as vicious and totally unconcerned about keeping Tarmogoyf out of his way. I think I'll take your advice and stick an Angler in the deck, moving DRS up to 4 and putting the last Mongoose slot into counterspell or removal. Since I'm splashing black for Abrupt Decay anyway, I think the third one might as well get this slot.

    The sideboard now looks like this (with 4 DRS, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Gurmag Angler, 3 Abrupt Decay, and a 2-1 Snare/Pierce split in the MD):

    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Vendilion Clique
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember
    2 Submerge
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Pithing Needle

  6. #1446
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    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    How sketchy is my mana going to be if I play a Bayou over a Trop? (And 3 Decay.)
    "I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
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  7. #1447

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    I think it's going to be pretty sketchy. Getting back to the original theory of the deck and comparing this idea with running a Taiga as the nonblue dual, Bayou doesn't do the same work of allowing all spells to be cast off of just two lands. Bayou + Volcanic can't cast Abrupt Decay, and Bayou + Sea can't cast Lightning Bolt, so against decks that don't pressure your manabase we'd need to play 3 lands. One less card to Brainstorm away.

    Comparing Bayou with Tropical Island, the job this card is supposed to do is deploy a T1 threat with Daze active.

    On Bayou's plus side, it would be nice to be able to use one land for DRS drains or summoning monsters and keep the island untapped. Sea+Taiga+DRS can't do this, it's necessary to lower the shields during opponent's end step if I want to drain. Bad things can happen in that moment.

  8. #1448

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    This deck has moved away from being able to play everything with two lands (Sea+Taiga) to a more midrange aproach.

    You will eventually find out that the deck works at its best with 3 lands in play. Usually you want to cast something (threat, cantrip), leave mana up for DRS activation and still be able to cast something.

    Take a look at the list posted few pages back with P.Truths and 19 lands for reference (this list is an attempt to mimic the lists running Dig Through Time when this was a deck to beat).

    Regarding Bayou, I tried it in a heavy black build with 19 lands, but I believe playing only blue duals is the best approach.

  9. #1449

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    Indeed, there are a lot of very interesting lists and a great conversation on those past few pages, I wish I had read more of that in the first place instead of sticking my foot straight into my mouth. Using Painful Truths to push the deck back into more or less where it was with Dig Through Time is a thought that hadn't occurred to me, as Truths is so far behind where Dig was in terms of power level.

    This is a very interesting time to be playing Delver of Secrets as a player, with two Delver variants in the DTB section and neither BURG nor RUG far away from that. I don't know what I should play.

  10. #1450

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    When you all say "play Gurmag Angler over Mongoose" what do you suggest for the third and fourth substitute? You can play 4 Mongooses, but only 2 Gurmag Anglers.

  11. #1451

    Re: [DTB] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    (snip) You will eventually find out that the deck works at its best with 3 lands in play. Usually you want to cast something (threat, cantrip), leave mana up for DRS activation and still be able to cast something. (snip)
    This is indeed what happens. For several reasons, it's hard to play the game with just 2 lands in play. Taiga is pretty useless most of the time, especially now that I've cut Mongoose for Gurmag Angler (with an Abrupt Decay in the extra slot). The pleasant feeling of sitting on the ideal Sea+Taiga disappears once the Sea gets Wasted and the blue mana is gone.

  12. #1452
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Top 4 Split a 61 player Legacy for Staples event with the following list:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Dark Confidant
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Stifle

    9 Blue Fetchlands
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Dismember
    2 Golgari Charm
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Null Rod

    I beat Shardless BUG, UR Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam, then double drew into T8. In the Quarterfinals, I beat Dark & Taxes. The deck was great and I wouldn't change a thing. It's more aggressive than RUG Delver while simultaneously having the sustaining power of BUG Delver. Deathrite + Delver + Bolts is an unreal amount of reach.

  13. #1453
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Top 4 Split a 61 player Legacy for Staples event with the following list:

    I beat Shardless BUG, UR Delver, Elves, and Aggro Loam, then double drew into T8. In the Quarterfinals, I beat Dark & Taxes. The deck was great and I wouldn't change a thing. It's more aggressive than RUG Delver while simultaneously having the sustaining power of BUG Delver. Deathrite + Delver + Bolts is an unreal amount of reach.
    How did your 1-ofs treat you? Would you rather have Gurmags, Snaps, more bolts, 2-of one of them?
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    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.
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  14. #1454
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    How did your 1-ofs treat you? Would you rather have Gurmags, Snaps, more bolts, 2-of one of them?
    I liked both Bob and TNN, although Bob did more heavy lifting yesterday, and I won a few games off of my opponent being forced to remove Bob lest they fall behind, while my Delver and Goyf just clock out for a quick lethal. Being able to stretch an opponent's removal in a time sensitive way is extremely valuable, especially when running Stifle, Wasteland, and Daze. TNN, on the other hand, is great for winning through board stalls, resolved Batterskulls, or a plethora of other situations where the deck could otherwise fall apart. The 1-1 split allows me to threaten different angles of attack, making it difficult for the opponent to anticipate what is coming.

    I opted not to run Gurmag Angler for two reasons: The first reason is that deck is already relatively soft to Rest in Peace (4x DRS and 4x Goyf), and having more threats that don't care about the Graveyard helps win those sorts of games. This came up in the Quarterfinals. The second reason is that the deck is currently great against Jace, and I didn't want to open up another angle to attack my creature base. I opted not to run SCM for the Graveyard-hate reason, as well.

    Since I can't register 5 Lightning Bolt, and the metagame has become very lock-piece-centric, Abrupt Decay is extremely valuable. 4 Lightning Bolt + 2 Abrupt Decay is where it's at, in my opinion.

  15. #1455
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Is this one of you guys? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378053#online echecetmat35

  16. #1456
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    Is this one of you guys? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378053#online echecetmat35
    The Jaces are interesting. Has anyone else in the thread been testing with JVP?

  17. #1457
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Hey guys,
    today I played the Tomas Mar list to a 4:1 at my locals.
    MU's were:

    Round 1: Burn -> Won 2:1
    Round 2: Death & Taxes -> Won 2:0
    Round 3: BW Deadguy -> Lost 0:2
    Round 4: TES -> Won 2:1
    Round 5: BUG Delver -> Won 2:0

    I changed the list a bit, here it is:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    3 Spell Pierce

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Painful Truth

    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay

    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Nihil Spellbomb
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Murderous Cut
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Ancient Grudge

    I did not draw Painful Truths alot but when I drew it then it was good, but I boarded it out against most oponents in G2. It really gives you an edge against Miracles, Shardless BUG or something like NicFit but it's too clunky against faster decks like Delver or taxing decks like DnT. 2 is a fine number right now for me.

    The TES MU was super close and I only won because my opponent punted G1 hard, even with 2 additional TS it seemed not that easy, maybe I add a 3rd copie...

    The Snapcaster Mage was super all time and sealed the deal against my last round op with BUG Delver after I flashbacked a Bolt ftw...Will defenetly keep him.

    All in all the best performing Delver deck I piloted the last couple of month.

    Greetings
    Currently playing
    Eldrazi

  18. #1458
    MTGO Name: Adelorenzi
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I made a variation of Silviawataru's 4c deck:


    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 Gurmag Angler
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Painful Truths
    1 Sylvan Library

    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs (Budget replacement for Scalding Tarn)
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Karakas
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Dismember
    1 Go for the Throat


    and took it into a league. So far I have beaten Bob Huang playing a Lands brew (game 3 I probed him and his hand is 2x Misty, 2x Loam, 2x Molten Vortex, 1 Exploration, so I pithing needled Misty which bought me enough time to win with Goyf and 2 Deathrites. I even drew Karakas to bounce just in case he found Marit Mana ^^), and also a Reanimator deck which punted game 1 reanimating something that let me lethal him with DRS when he already had a Griselbrand on board.

  19. #1459
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post
    I made a variation of Silviawataru's 4c deck:


    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Tarmogoyf
    2 Gurmag Angler
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Painful Truths
    1 Sylvan Library

    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs (Budget replacement for Scalding Tarn)
    2 Misty Rainforest
    3 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Golgari Charm
    1 Karakas
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Scavenging Ooze
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Dismember
    1 Go for the Throat


    and took it into a league. So far I have beaten Bob Huang playing a Lands brew (game 3 I probed him and his hand is 2x Misty, 2x Loam, 2x Molten Vortex, 1 Exploration, so I pithing needled Misty which bought me enough time to win with Goyf and 2 Deathrites. I even drew Karakas to bounce just in case he found Marit Mana ^^), and also a Reanimator deck which punted game 1 reanimating something that let me lethal him with DRS when he already had a Griselbrand on board.
    Iīm not sure if I want to play a Delver deck which has such a weak G1 against combo decks, and even in G2&3 it doesnt get way better...The manabase is also really suboptimal, the badlands has to go for sure and instead you should play a 2nd Volcanic, the Catacombs are also bad but ok if you dont have the tarns...

    I changed my MD meanwhile too and am now trying 2 TNN, 1 Sylvan Library & the 4th Bolt instead of the 2 Painful Truths 1 Snapy & 1 Kolaghans Command and till now I like it...This build is slightly worse against Miracles & Shardless because you lose 2 Truths but Library & the TNNīs are still solid...I also added the 4th Wasteland after that MD changes because without the 2 truths & command etc your casting costs in view of colors gets better (truth Needs 3 different Colors, Command 2 & Snapy 2). I really liked the changes till now...
    Currently playing
    Eldrazi

  20. #1460

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Hey,
    someone of you knows what the guys at the Prague Eternal Event played? i saw Thomas Mar and another guy on Camera but cant get the correct lists. Especially the list with confis looks interesting :)

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