[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[big_EZ]

Hey everyone,

So, I'm pretty new to legacy, and I wanted to solicit some advice/opinions. I like delver strategies in modern, as I prefer the tempo and controlling game style. I really like the style of Canadian in legacy, but I don't really like how mongoose can just feel really irrelevant sometimes. So, I've been drawn to this deck because I like how the threats feel like they don't get outclassed as much.

My question is this: how does the Yu/Friedman style list compare to something like the BUG list Jim Davis ran in Baltimore, with Confidants and stifles and no Hymns? Both strategies appear very similar, with Davis' list just being lower to the ground while also running stifles for added disruption. Obviously TNN is a great evasive threat, but are the bolts and snaps worth the much more fragile mana base? Would this strategy just obviously outclass the BUG strategy in any matchups, or vice versa?

Thanks for all your help!

[NegatorITA]

Few guidelines to give you an idea. The in/out numbers are not synced as I figure them out on the spot..

Miracles
---
Out:
2-4 L.Bolt
0-2 Wasteland
2-4 Daze

In:
2 P.Needle
2 P.Truths
2 Flusterstorm

Delvers
---
Out:
2-4 FoW
2-4 Daze (play/draw)

In:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

D&T
---
Out:
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 FoW

In:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Dismember
2 P.Needle
2 Thoughseize

Combo
---
Out:
3 A.Decay
2 TNN
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Underground Sea
0-4 L.Bolt (trim this last)

In:
3 Surgical E.
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 P.Needle?

pretty useful, thanks, I was wondering where all these surgical are needed since I usually get off with two, surely three would help alot vs lands and the new turbo reanimator :)

[Whitefaces]

I've got a tournament in a couple of days and I'm umming and arring over playing something like the below, Grixis Delver or Bant Stoneblade. I'm expecting quite a lot of Miracles, Delver and DnT.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

I'd build a sideboard going off the guide below of what to cut vs the popular decks.

Miracles
- 2 Bolt
- 3-4 Daze
- 1-2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver
- 4 Daze/FoW (usually 2/2 split)
- 1 Counterspell

Eldrazi
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
- 1-2 Daze/FoW

DnT
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2-4 Daze
- 1 Counterspell

Storm
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 0-2 Lightning Bolt

Lands
- 3-4 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell

Shardless
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will


Any input would be appreciated!

[Manipulato]

I've got a tournament in a couple of days and I'm umming and arring over playing something like the below, Grixis Delver or Bant Stoneblade. I'm expecting quite a lot of Miracles, Delver and DnT.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

I'd build a sideboard going off the guide below of what to cut vs the popular decks.

Miracles
- 2 Bolt
- 3-4 Daze
- 1-2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver
- 4 Daze/FoW (usually 2/2 split)
- 1 Counterspell

Eldrazi
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
- 1-2 Daze/FoW

DnT
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2-4 Daze
- 1 Counterspell

Storm
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 0-2 Lightning Bolt

Lands
- 3-4 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell

Shardless
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will


Any input would be appreciated!

Hi,
same situation, will play my locals on Saturday too.

My suggestions:

Miracles -> Boarding is ok

Delver -> I would take out Kolaghans Command for sure, to clunky for what it does. I personally board out all my pierces in Delver MU´s especially OtD because I never have the U open to cast it but with this configuration I´m unsure about that because we dont play Goyf now, means we have more mana open to cast the pierce and Angler cost´s just 1 mana which works better with pierce.

Eldrazi -> Boarding is ok but I would not cut any Dazes or FoW´s.

DnT -> Pierce and CS ok, but I would not take out 2-4 Daze because the current builds are quite cc3 heavy and if you can shut down Vial your Dazes become strong. Would probably take out 2 FoW 2 Daze 2 Pierce 1 CS.

ANT -> I would take out 2 TNN 3 AD 2 Bolt maybe 1 Command, depending on how many cards you want to bring in out of your SB. Gurmag is slower but something needs to close the game and if you take out 4 creatures you just have 4 Delver 4 Shaman 2 SCM which are a poor clock especially if you miss your Delver opening.

Lands -> Kolaghans command needs to go here, rest is ok.

Shardless -> I would probably take out all 4 FoW´s because this is a grindy MU and losing value is tough + Pierce counters the most annoying cards like Lili, Deluge, Night of Souls Betrayal etc...But 2/2 is not that bad too...

But I need to test sideboarding with this new list too and am not 100% sold on the boardings atm.

Greetings

[crush]

My 2c:
vs Delver: Spell Pierce is key if you want your DRS to live (which is rather good), so I would keep them in.

vs Storm: you can cut one land (U.Sea or Tropical)

vs DNT: I usually only keep in FoWs (3-4x) and overload on removal/artifact hate. You really need to have an answer ready for Mom and Vial. Everything else can wait ;-)

[Whitefaces]

Hi,
same situation, will play my locals on Saturday too.

My suggestions:

Miracles -> Boarding is ok

Delver -> I would take out Kolaghans Command for sure, to clunky for what it does. I personally board out all my pierces in Delver MU´s especially OtD because I never have the U open to cast it but with this configuration I´m unsure about that because we dont play Goyf now, means we have more mana open to cast the pierce and Angler cost´s just 1 mana which works better with pierce.

Eldrazi -> Boarding is ok but I would not cut any Dazes or FoW´s.

DnT -> Pierce and CS ok, but I would not take out 2-4 Daze because the current build are quite cc3 heavy and if you can shut down Vial Daze becomes strong. Would probably take out 2 FoW 2 Daze 2 Pierce 1 CS.

ANT -> I would take out 2 TNN 3 AD 2 Bolt maybe 1 Command, depending on how many cards you want to bring in out of your SB. Gurmag is slower but something needs to close the game and if you take out 4 creatures you just have 4 Delver 4 Shaman 2 SCM...

Lands -> Kolaghans command needs to go here, rest is ok.

Shardless -> I would probably take out all 4 FoW´s because this is a grindy MU and losing value is tough + Pierce counters the most annoying cards like Lili, Deluge, Night of Souls Betrayal etc...But 2/2 is not that bad too...

But I need to test sideboarding with this new list too and am not 100% sold on the boardings atm.

Greetings

Thanks for the reply!

Delver - I totally agree on Pierces OTD, I'll board them out there. On the play is a little different because of the reasons you mention, but I think they'll be cut too. I quite like the Command as a late game bomb in Delver matchups though. I will most likely have 2 Baleful Strix in the SB too so plan to take a very controlling role.

Eldrazi - You're right, my friends said don't cut FoW or Daze too, I'll keep them in!

DnT - That's fair, I like 2/2 fow and daze actually, especially since I have a lot of ways to kill Vial. There will probably be a Null Rod in the board.

Lands - I was thinking of Command to kill Chalices or Spheres if they bring them in, but there are decays already, I'll cut the command.

Shardless - Hmm, I used to always take out the full set of Forces from the Delver side but have been having success leaving two in. They just have a stronger late game than us so we need to find the right angle, which I've found to be efficiency. The tempo from a FoW can be game changing and Pierce only matches up vs the cards you mention really, Lili, Deluge and NosB. Daze already taxes them very hard.

My 2c:
vs Delver: Spell Pierce is key if you want your DRS to live (which is rather good), so I would keep them in.

vs Storm: you can cut one land (U.Sea or Tropical)

vs DNT: I usually only keep in FoWs (3-4x) and overload on removal/artifact hate. You really need to have an answer ready for Mom and Vial. Everything else can wait ;-)

I think I agree with Manipulato on Pierces, they've usually been quite poor in the delver MU after board. But I'll be boarding in a Fluster or two.

Good point on Storm, I'll cut a trop probably.

DnT, this is what I've done in the past. Hmm...

[Manipulato]

Jarvis where are you? Would be cool to hear your opinion on those boarding strategies.

[jarvisyu]

Jarvis where are you? Would be cool to hear your opinion on those boarding strategies.

So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

[Whitefaces]

Thoughts on this?

SB:

2 Baleful Strix
2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember
2 Dread of Night
1 Thoughtseize - potentially a Leovold instead, it would come in vs DnT, Storm, Lands and other combo too.

Miracles: 8
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 1 Pithing Needle
- 2 Bolt
- 3 Daze
- 2 Wasteland
- 1 Kolaghan’s Command

Delver: 7
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Daze
- 2 FoW
- 1 Counterspell
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Dismember
+ 2 Pyroblast

Eldrazi: 3
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 Counterspell
+ 2 Baleful Strix
+ 1 Murderous Cut

DnT: 6
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 1 FoW
- 2 Daze
- 1 Counterspell
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 2 Dread of Night
+ 1 Dismember
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Storm: 9
- 2 Gurmag Angler
- 2 True-Name Nemesis
- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 1 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Tropical Island
+ 3 Surgical
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 2 Fluster
+ 2 Pyroblast
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Lands: 5 - 5 may be too few, could be lacking here. Leaving in 2 Daze feels bad too.
- 2 Daze
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Counterspell
+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Thoughtseize

Shardless: 5
- 2 Spell Pierce
- 2 Force of Will
- 1 ?
2 Baleful Strix
2 Pyroblast
1 Dismember

Decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Kolaghan’s Command
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

I agree with this to an extent, I will definitely board differently from person to person, but it's nice having a rough plan laid out :)

[Manipulato]

So much of how I play magic is based on what I've seen in game 1 // how my opponent plays, so I generally do NOT have a sideboarding guide, nor do I encourage the use of one.

I'm much more willing to discuss philosophical approaches to matchups.

Sure I see your point and it makes sense but how Whiteface said it´s good to have a rough plan vs the common decks.
But if you want to discuss philosophical approaches how do you see the Eldrazi MU with the Friedmann list? In the past I saw the MU like a race, land Delver/Goyf and tempo them out with counters and wastelands but without Goyfs I think it goes more into the control/midrange direction...How do you see that?

[redtwister]

As a long-time DnT player who is moving to Grixis and 4C to become a better player overall, I think a lot depends on thinking about what your opponent played game 1 (I agree with Jarvis on this).

For example, you want a high chance of stopping Vial, but also being able to stop the curve of mom into Thalia 1.0 into Prelate is huge.

One thing I would look for is, did they play Cavern? If you see Cavern game 1, I think counters are worse than overloading on artifact hate, but if I didn't see it, then 3 FoW and 2 Daze is a solid decision. I will say, Cavern is more common now rather than less with DnT since they have a lot more humans. Secondly, if you see Serra Avenger, I would expect 0-1 Cavern because WW is actually super important for non-vial draws. Thirdly, did you see Thalia 2.0? Then Cavern is more likely and fetching will be more complicated. At that point, you want to emphasize killing disruptive creatures and less on countering because you can be facing 2-3 Caverns in the Thalia 2.0 builds.

[Whitefaces]

As a long-time DnT player who is moving to Grixis and 4C to become a better player overall, I think a lot depends on thinking about what your opponent played game 1 (I agree with Jarvis on this).

For example, you want a high chance of stopping Vial, but also being able to stop the curve of mom into Thalia 1.0 into Prelate is huge.

One thing I would look for is, did they play Cavern? If you see Cavern game 1, I think counters are worse than overloading on artifact hate, but if I didn't see it, then 3 FoW and 2 Daze is a solid decision. I will say, Cavern is more common now rather than less with DnT since they have a lot more humans. Secondly, if you see Serra Avenger, I would expect 0-1 Cavern because WW is actually super important for non-vial draws. Thirdly, did you see Thalia 2.0? Then Cavern is more likely and fetching will be more complicated. At that point, you want to emphasize killing disruptive creatures and less on countering because you can be facing 2-3 Caverns in the Thalia 2.0 builds.

Thanks for the input. I'm quite familiar with all styles of DnT as lots of my friends play it, I agree with your assessments. The Cavern / Avenger point hadn't occurred to me though! Good to keep in mind :)

A summation of what you just said is why I prefer Force of Will over Daze post SB, since we're boarding into more removal and artifact removal for equipment/vial, assuming things match up the way we want it to FoW can be used on their SB cards (I like being aggressive with it to protect an early delver from StP and PtE for example), or for a huge tempo swing. I tend to save Wastelands vs DnT for Karakas or Caverns too, so FoW can still catch creatures later in the game.

[jarvisyu]

Sure I see your point and it makes sense but how Whiteface said it´s good to have a rough plan vs the common decks.
But if you want to discuss philosophical approaches how do you see the Eldrazi MU with the Friedmann list? In the past I saw the MU like a race, land Delver/Goyf and tempo them out with counters and wastelands but without Goyfs I think it goes more into the control/midrange direction...How do you see that?

i don't think you can realistically hope to control them forever, so i just try to kill them.

they have too many big guys, and cavern is gonna force a big guy through at some point

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
went 3-1-1 today and finished at 4th place at my local store. Played the Friedmann list for the 1st time and was quite satisfied.

Here is the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
2 Dismember
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Electrickery
1 Dread of Night
1 Kolaghans Command

My MU'S were:

Round 1: BG NicFit Won 2:0
Round 2: BR Reanimator Won 2:0
Round 3: Esper Deathblade Won 2:0
Round 4: Death & Taxes Draw after time 1:1
Round 5: Goblin Moon Stompy Lost 1:2

The loss vs Goblin Stompy was really frustrating because I never drew Lightning Bolt in G2 when he was at 1 life for 3-4 turns and G3 I never ever drew a 2nd creature , just a lonely Shaman which drained him to 10 life, every creature even a SCM would have won me the game but instead of a cantrip or creature I drew FoW, Daze, Pierce, AD which did absolutley nothing because he had enough mana and all of his creatures are Decay proof with cc4 Cost me the 1st place...

Things I noticed and some feedback:

- Snapcaster Mage was super great! Always helped me and always a good topdeck. Bolt + SCM just gave me so much reach and can turn a game completley.

- Gurmag Angler was ok but not great, I had some problems casting him here and there but the biggest problem was the antisynergy with SCM, I had to delving away some cards I wanted to stay in the GY for later SCM.

- FoW had always something to pitch, a blue count with 28 cards is perfect and even if I boarded out some pierces or Dazes you have still a reliable U count.

- The manabase feels perfect for a 4c deck! Without Goyfs you have only AD with green mana in the deck which means you can fetch and play a Grixis Delver manabase with a light g splash for AD. The manabase becomes way more solid & the dependence from all 4 colors at the same time sinks alot. The 3rd Underground Sea is also a good insurance for double Wastelands on the oponents side.

- Dread of Night was great vs DnT and superior to Sulfur Elemental because the DnT player had 2 Swords in his hand which are another reason I prefer DoN over the Elemental. 2 needles were also great.

All in all I'm still a bit unsure if I should play 3 Tarmogoyf instead of the 2 Angler & 3rd SCM just because of the antisynergy between both and more aggression/faster gameplay. But the better manabase is also worth it.

We will see, keep on bUrgin guys.

[theMonster]

Nice result, Manipulato. I played a local last night and went 3-0-1, beating Slivers, Infect, and Eldrazi and drawing with Lands. (We played a 30-minute game 2, and I needed one or two more turns to win game 3 in time).

I played the Friedman maindeck with -1 Pierce and +1 Counterspell. My sideboard was super meta-driven:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Arc Trail
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Kolaghan's Command

Several Chalice decks and multiple DnT/Elves in the room, no Miracles. Arc Trail was actually pretty good against Infect. I played it over Forked Bolt out of fear of Sanctum Prelate on 1. Thought it was fine. Perhaps Marsh Casualties should be Electrickery instead; I see very little opposing True-Name Nemeses locally, and the instant speed and ease of casting it probably outweigh the fact that Mother of Runes can save a creature. I also should probably devote one slot to Dread of Night or Sulfur Elemental and would play a Painful Truths in an open meta.

And I'm off the Counterspell. I've been boarding it out more frequently of late, which tells me I shouldn't play it. It's great versus Miracles, yes, but I can play other cards for that matchup. In that slot I guess I'd play either the third Pierce/one of the sideboard Thoughtseizes or something like Dismember/Terminate, depending on the meta.

Read some good things on here and elsewhere about Leovold, Emissary of Trest. Any other thoughts on him? Seems good against Port/Wasteland, Brainstorm, removal, discard ... The mana cost scares me, but the effect seems powerful. I guess you'd have to cut the third Snapcaster for him, right? Anyone else think that's worth exploring?

Also, do you think it's viable to play a miser's Grim Lavamancer in a DnT meta, maybe in the sideboard? You'd probably play Goyfs instead of Anglers so as not to tax the graveyard, right?

Thanks, y'all.

[blablub]

How do you win against Eldrazi without Goyfs or Strixes? They just overrun me everytime :( of course i played against draws which are on the topper side but espically on the draw, i feel there are too fast. Are there any tricks or Sideboard Updates?
I feel if you can stabilze with Nemesis and Jitte u will win, but it feels hard to not fall too behind. I need your help :D

I have thougt about Toxic-Deluge to clear their Board on Turn 3. X=5 might be to hard though :(

[NegatorITA]

is there any reason why nobody plays this over marsh casuality?

or are you tell me you expect to have 5 mana with double black in time for the -2/-2?

[Manipulato]

is there any reason why nobody plays this over marsh casuality?

or are you tell me you expect to have 5 mana with double black in time for the -2/-2?

Well, to be honest, I did not know this Card exist, it´s a new Card from Kaladesh...
Defenetly worth considering as a replacement for Electrickery, Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties but cc3 is not optimal, quite expensive for what it does...

[NegatorITA]

Well, to be honest, I did not know this Card exist, it´s a new Card from Kaladesh...
Defenetly worth considering as a replacement for Electrickery, Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties but cc3 is not optimal, quite expensive for what it does...

It is indeed more expensive, yet it's "the best" at what it does in this deck at least, doesn't kill nemesi, avoid MoR, has istant speed... I wish they would make one at cc 1B, but I guess it would just be OP or deal with all creatures (like Golgari charm does)

[MXG]

I managed a 5-0 yesterday with the Friedman/Yu list, after going for 2 Baleful Strix maindeck over the Gurmag Anglers and a slightly modified sideboard, to taste.

While Gurmag is insanely powerful, I think that the inherent clunkiness of this list as compared to, say, Grixis Delver, means that I was more likely to be losing a game while stuck these harder-to-cast cards and that when I'm resolving Gurmags, I'm generally going to be winning that game anyway. The cantrip effect of Baleful Strix is not to be understated, and it really helps smooth out the deck's draws, as well as increase the clock while mitigating the effects of Terminus. Baleful Strix plays D about as well as Gurmag (easier to remove, but blocks Flying and cantrips), and at no point in the league did I wish the Owl were a Fish.

2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 ANT
2-1 Miracles
2-1 BUG Delver (Hymns and TNNs)
2-0 Miracles