[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[Kael]

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

I'm pretty sure most people are running 3 Shaman, which makes for 11 potential turn 1 plays. Regardless, either 11 or 12 is fine, as it nearly insures you have a powerful turn 1 play (whereas RUG is less likely to have an opener with either Delver or Stifle), and multiples are typically not an issue, as all three make for perfectly decent turn 2 or later plays. If they were dead cards post turn 1, your point would be relevant.

Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all.

Patriot and TA are tapout tempo decks, and Stifle is a less relevant card to their gameplan as a result. The card, being the flexible powerhouse that it is, is still usable, but not necessary like it is in Canadian or bUrg.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

You're coming off as a fanboy who has been drinking the "Stifle Kool Aid" who has bought into this "4 of or nothing" rhetoric. Regarding the tempo plan, you can see that Stifle is the LEAST important card in the tempo decks. That why most tempo decks outside of Canadian Thresh don't run stifles and for a time Thresh dropped stifle as well in favor of more spell pierce. You can search deck list and see how many tempo decks use fewer than 4 stifles and how many use none at all. SCG last week the 2nd place BUG deck ran 3 stifles, the 3rd place deck ran none. This is magic, the unsolvable game. This is also bUrg in the development thread where you go to find and do things different. When you already decided there are "TRUTHS" to card selection, you've already decided you have nothing to contribute and you're only parroting rhetoric.

I was expecting replies like this one ... Maybe I should've added; "In my opinion" - I can get behind 3 Stifles, but 2? For me, again - personally - I don't see the use. Like I mentioned, its effectiveness is derived from its redudancy. Besides, like pe5e mentioned, it is a part of a gameplan - a plan we can adapt nicely like RUG Delver:

You gotta be carefull here though. BUG, RUG and Uwr Tempo are entire diffrent decks when it comes to creating tempo plays. Simple because one of them doesnt play Stifle doesnt tell a lot about the role that Stifle can forfill in other tempo decks. RUG for example is the best deck for Stifle(even better than burg delver), while BUG and Uwr are slightly slower in there clock because of higher casting costs for their threats and disruption. They tend to tap out more often then we do so Stifle is less reliable here. RUG on the other hand can perfectly balance developing threats and disrupt the opponent because the entire decks costs only 1 mana(except Goyfs). So they want to make their deck as consistent as possible by playing playsets.

And since Burg is RUG Delver + black playing Stifle as a 4 off is logical because we are aiming for the same strategy as RUG Delver.

Yes, there was a time when RUG Delver was cutting Stifles in favour for more removel and Spell Snares. But that was back then when Maverick was still a deck to beat. Against Maverick Stifle is kinda bad particularly on the draw. But todays meta game is largely defined by 3-coloured decks and Miracles. Stifle is fantastic against those decks. If the meta shifts again towards decks that can neutralize Stifle then maybe we should cut Stifle again. For now though it seems wrong to do so.

And saying that Stifle isnt as powerful as it used to be seems wrong. Just because people can play around it doesnt mean it is bad. Daze and Spell Pierce can be ignored too but only if they staybalize and it is our job to prevent that. They also cant always play around it even if they know about it.

It's that pe5e replied before I had the chance or I would've basically said the same.

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?

Now, just to be clear: nothing is WRONG, really. Some of what we're saying might come off as us denying any other possibility, but we're just discussing what we - personally - feel works for us in BURG and try to explain why we feel that to be the case. For me, BURG plays a lot like RUG Delver and honestly, Stifle isn't just for the turn one fetch. A lot of the meta has slowed down with a lot of midrange, like BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, JUND, Deathblade, Miracles, Patriot/UWR Delver, etc; a lot of these decks operate on two or more lands. Cutting them off from the 2nd land is just as good as Stifling their first in a lot of ways. Over the months I've actually grown fond of the combination of DRS and Stifle / 1 mana softcounters. DRS gives us the possibility of Wasting their land and keeping DRS open to play around their Dazes or Stifling their fetch, sometimes even with mana open to play around a Spell Pierce or Daze. This often results in the Stifle 'sticking' instead of being a 1 for 1 trade with a counter / softcounter. Being able to overcome opposing Wasteland tricks with an open DRS and a Stifle also becomes a lot easier.

For example, if I'm on the play and have a hand that has; Wasteland / DRS / Daze / Delver / Stifle / Fetch or Sea or Tropical / Spell Pierce/Bolt/Cantrip-or whatever there's almost no way they'll overcome the jump you gain on them. Play DRS, Daze their one-drop, Waste their Dual, Play a Delver and keep DRS open for Stifle/Spell Pierce/Bolt (depending on your draws), the tempo gained is so huge that you're highly favored to win that game. I playtested a lot today with a friend of mine who mains BUG Delver (and pilots it really well) and I went 5-0 in a row due to these absolutely dirty hands that are worth mulliganing into (which wasn't really that often). In a meta like we have today, it feels that Stifle is once again at the top of its game - and no, that's not the Stifle-fanboy in me talking.

I'm pretty sure most people are running 3 Shaman, which makes for 11 potential turn 1 plays. Regardless, either 11 or 12 is fine, as it nearly insures you have a powerful turn 1 play (whereas RUG is less likely to have an opener with either Delver or Stifle), and multiples are typically not an issue, as all three make for perfectly decent turn 2 or later plays. If they were dead cards post turn 1, your point would be relevant.

Patriot and TA are tapout tempo decks, and Stifle is a less relevant card to their gameplan as a result. The card, being the flexible powerhouse that it is, is still usable, but not necessary like it is in Canadian or bUrg.

Exactly. And besides, those decks have a gameplan that's a lot slower than ours / RUG Delver's and therefore can't really optimize the window that Stifle does actually present us.

[sawatarix]

Came back from the weekly tournamanet in berlin with my Burg Delver Deck,finished first.

The Deck is a real Powerhouse and to me it feels like a better version of Team America.
I still run these Creatures:

4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmnogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique

The 2 Cliques could also be other Creatures because they are only great in midgames.
They are pretty hard to cast if you don't have a shaman on board.
Grim Lavamancer in the maindeck could also be an idea.


One of my favourite Sideboardcards is nihil spellbomb.
This card cantrips and helps against any deck with nimble mongoose/knight of the reliquary/life from the loam which is quite problematic sometimes.
Grim Lavamancer are also nuts against any fair deck, they kill every creature except tarmogoyf.
grim lavamancer and lightning bolts are the strongest arguments to play this deck over team america.

In future I'm going to experiment with cards like izzet staticaster and electrickery instead of golgari charm , see how it goes.

[Flojo82]

Can u please Post your complete List.

Thx

[Hof]

Nice results. I might try this deck soon.
Grim Lavamancer is certainly very powerful, but considering your maindeck reliance on the graveyard (deathrite and goyf), don't you expect some fair decks to bring in graveyard hate against you? I would fully expect D&T to bring in 2-3 Rest in Piece for example. How effective is Lavamancer in those cases?

[sawatarix]

rest in peace is fine, we have spell snare and abrupt decay to handle it.

My current list hasn't really changed:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion CLique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sb:
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Counterspell
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the loam

[Kamus]

Read carefully: Playing less than 4 stifles DOES NOT MEAN "Stifle is bad"


I've been playing this deck since Sasan started this thread, I often don't bother posting in this thread because I see a lot of theory crafting that goes no where, or some eager beaver thinks they reinvented the wheel when they post up their list and it looks exactly like the same lists from last year.

I don't like 4 of stifle in this deck is because the deck runs 4 shaman and 4 delver, thats 8 turn 1 plays. Your best turn 1 plays are pushing a Delver or a Shaman. Its ok for Canadian Thresh to have 4 stifles because it doesn't run shaman and play mongoose turn 1 is not optimal. Thus Thresh has 8 turn 1 plays with delver or stifle.

Seriously, why are you trying to stop me from saying its fine to play less than 4 stifles?

Did you forget Ponder, right?
Using RUG Delver as example, I can say I usually prefer to play Ponder on turn 1, instead os stifle.
Stifle is not a bad card at all, it does amazing things in several games, but I feel I'd like to have another card in my hand the majority of times. Mongoose is terrible in turn 1, Delver is usually the best card to be played, but in a situation I do not have a delver for turn 1, I think I prefer to ponder, instead of leaving my land untapped, expecting my opponent plays a fetchland to stifle, when actually it will NOT happen MANY times.

[Satisfied_Yeti]

I can say I usually prefer to play Ponder on turn 1... I think I prefer to ponder, instead of leaving my land untapped

I really dislike Pondering on my first turn unless there is something specific I am looking for. I'd rather play my land and pass the turn, especially if I have Stifle. This is even more true if I do not know what my opponent is playing.

[Kael]

Missed the registration for one of the Saturday side events at GP:Portland, so I only ended up playing 1 event. Ended up a pretty miserable 3-2, losing to TA and Belcher, of all things. I played this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Fire Covenant
2 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

Round 1: Team America with Confidants, Stifles, and TNNs

Lose the roll, game comes down to a very close race between TNN and my DRS. Definitely punted, as on an earlier turn I ended up tapping out for an Abrupt Decay (killing a Goyf, I think) with Force, Blue card, Fetch in my hand, while continuing to beat down with a Mongoose. Sandbagged the Fetch out of habit, but he was down to 1 card in hand and his only real out was TNN with counter backup, he has TNN + Daze for my Force. Sideboard into more of a controlling role, bring in most of my removal, side out Dazes, Pierces, some number of Forces. Keep a hand with a few removal spells, Wasteland, Loam, and lands. eat his Deathrite and Goyf, and start knocking out his lands with Loam + Wasteland. He never has enough mana to resolve another threat, but his Delver flips, and takes me down over 6 turns as I Dredge one of my Decays away, topdeck a Submerge the turn after I Wasted his last land (a Bayou), and shuffle off of two Ponders, not finding anything else. He only manages to find 1 other mana source after the first few Wastelands, but it's a fetch, and he refuses to crack it, either because he's expecting Submerge, or he's scared of Stifle. On the last turn before I die, I decide to wing it, and hope he's just really scared of Stifle. In an act of desperation, I make an effort of tapping two of my lands to cast a Delver, tapping myself out, and make a show of passing the turn without using the extra mana. On my end step, he attempts to capitalize on my "blunder" by cracking his fetch (no idea why, I just tapped myself out into his lethal board), getting a Trop. I let the fetch resolve, then try to Submerge the Delver. He Dazes... Apparently he left in Daze on the draw.

Round 2: Jund

He runs out Bloodstained Mires on turns 1 and 2, attempting to crack both on his second turn. First gets a Bayou, I Stifle the second. His only other mana sources are two Groves, so even though Punishing Fire eats my Deathrite, he never gets to BBE or Lili mana, and 3 Nimble Mongeese beat him down. Game 2, He keeps a 2 lander, and never draws another land. 2 angry Mongeese take him out quickly, as he decided to Hymn me twice, giving me Threshold on turn 3.

Round 3: Bant

He floods a bit in game 1, Decay and Force take care of his Knights while my Tarmogoyf easily races his Sylvan Safekeeper and Hierarch. Game 2 I mulligan to 5, but I have Loam, Wasteland, Bolt, and two lands. Bolt his Hierarch and Waste lock him out of the game pretty early. Ancient Grudge did work, taking out two Engineered Explosives before he could activate them.

Round 4: Belcher

My opponent arrives nearly 10 minutes late, but that wasn't an issue given his choice of deck. I beat him game 1 easily off of Pierce + Force. I keep Fluster, Force, blue cards, Delver, and land game 2, but he opens with Chrome Mox, Petal, then Land Grants, revealing another Land Grant, ESG, and Empty. Can't find an answer to the Goblins in time. Game 3 I draw one of those lovely hands with Taiga as the only mana source and no Force. 6 has no lands, no Force. 5 is double Force, triple blue card, which is pretty good, all things considered. I pass, and he Land Grants, revealing Swarm, Seething Song, LED, LED, Petal, Rit, Wish. I can't hope for much better, as I can Force the Swarm now and then Force his Wish next turn. I draw another blue card and pass back. He goes Petal, Rit, Song, LED, LED...Empty. What a player.

Round 5: Burn

Deathrite barely keeps me alive in both games as Tarmogoyf beats him to death. Nothing special.




Despite some fairly frustrating losses, I really like the manabase like this. The Taiga isn't ideal, but it's just something we have to deal with, and it really helped in a few games. Going down to 2 red sources felt pretty solid in the games I was jamming against Jordan and Greg, along with the 5 rounds I played it in. I'm going to stick pretty close to this list for now, I think.

[Rosy]

sawatarix thanks for the list

Is spell snare really that good in this deck? I know it is a nice tempo card and you can counter quite a lot of cards with it but it is a situational card. I personally add another copy of spell pierce.

[pe5e]

Is spell snare really that good in this deck? I know it is a nice tempo card and you can counter quite a lot of cards with it but it is a situational card. I personally add another copy of spell pierce.

Well, Spell Pierce is just as situational as Spell Snare is. What card you play or if you play a split depends on the cards you face more often. Also Spell Snare is a hardcounter at every stage of the game, which can be pretty relevant since Pierce could be played around here. I like to play a 2/1 split of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare main and some number of addional Snares in the SB.

[Rosy]

Well, Spell Pierce is just as situational as Spell Snare is. What card you play or if you play a split depends on the cards you face more often. Also Spell Snare is a hardcounter at every stage of the game, which can be pretty relevant since Pierce could be played around here. I like to play a 2/1 split of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare main and some number of addional Snares in the SB.

I understand that Spell Snare is hardcounter at any stage of the game but I suppose that you dont want the game to be too long with this deck. I guess Spell Pierce might be slightly better in RUG (or deck with Stiffles in general). Oldschool counterspell would be great but there is that taiga issue

Anyway I will test 2/2 split and see..

[sawatarix]

because some people asked me about my decklist during the last couple of weeks, here a short explanation why i moved frokm the opening list.

I have been playing the deck since it was spoilered after grand prix strassbourg last year with 4 nimble mongoose alongside stifle, spell snare and 2 tarmogoyfs (later true name nemesis to combat decks like death/taxes and jund).
the deck felt great until grand prix paris this spring when i lost to many rounds because of the manabase.
i mean, the manabase has always been the weakest part of the skeleton, as we all know.
but not making day 2 because of it was so...frustrating, i remember the loss to merfolk because i had 2 pyroblasts in my hand and 2 tropical island and 1 underground sea on the battlefield.another game a single wasteland took me completely out of the game until i drew my taiga with my hand full of blue cantrips.

so, i noticed to myself after that: play more lands/deathrite shamans.
the 19th land came in and also the 4th shaman.
tarmogoyf came also in, this time the whole playset because our bad/harder matchups are the grindy ones like shardless bug or jund where nimble mongoose is not the best thread against opposing tarmogoyfs.accoringly spell pierce got a place in the main deck instead of spell snare: tarmogoyf is weak to removal spells like swords to plowshares or dismember so spell pierce has a protection role in this deck.

stifle is also out and most of you will say: 'stifle is a great card to generate a tempo advantage/protect our manabase'.while this is true, it is not really playable before turn 3 because all i want to do with this deck is to deploy threads on turn 1 and on turn 2 and then keep mana open to disrupt my opponent/protect my dudes/kill theirs.so stifle would be active after my opponent has already 1-2 lands in play which is not ideal.
keeping a mana open to stifle a fetchland on turn 1 is far from good if we don't have a creature to pressure our opponent at the same time.
it is similar to a time walk: if we don't have any creatures the time walk is just a 'draw1, untap all your lands' which is not great at all.
drew levin also wrote a rug delver primer 2 years ago and he also argues against stifle.


if you have further questions, please let me know.

[Tormod]

I hav been playing bUrg as long if not longer than Sawatrix and i am in full agreement with Sawatrix on his current list which is a first because in the past we have differered over card choices. A lot of our discussion from last year iss exactly the same as the discussions im reading now. Goyf vs goose. Stifles, abrupts. #shaman, taiga...Perhaps the meta game we are facing have become similar, after all we live half way around the world from each other.

Sawatrix does an excellent job explaining his choices.

Another thing I have been thinking about. Some folks like to say that burg is rug with deathrite and that always felt like an awkward explanation. Then I saw the Prague Champs 4th place list called "Bug with Bolt". So I realise that for some burg is rug with deathrite and for some its Bug with bolt. Which will Influence design.

[sawatarix]

For me the deck has become Bug with bolts and more importantly pyroblast and grim lavamancers (but without clunky shit like hymn to tourach or tombstalkers in the main).
especially grim lavamancer is really underplayed in a format full of creatures with toughness 1/2.

[Tormod]

I agree. Its my view that the stronger build of burg is BUG w/ bolts. The defining characteristics being 3+ abrupt decay, Tarmogoyf, 4 DRS.

The defining characteritics of "RUG w/ Drs" bUrg being stifles and mongoose.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I agree. Its my view that the stronger build of burg is BUG w/ bolts. The defining characteristics being 3+ abrupt decay, Tarmogoyf, 4 DRS.

The defining characteritics of "RUG w/ Drs" bUrg being stifles and mongoose.

That's a good way of looking at it. The list you guys run looks more like BURG Midrange and the lists some of us run is more in the vein of BURG Tempo. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I simply don't have 4 Goyfs, so I haven't been able to test the list you guys run, but for kicks I will proxy the two Goyfs and will test the list you two seem to like so much.

[Kael]

That's a good way of looking at it. The list you guys run looks more like BURG Midrange and the lists some of us run is more in the vein of BURG Tempo. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I simply don't have 4 Goyfs, so I haven't been able to test the list you guys run, but for kicks I will proxy the two Goyfs and will test the list you two seem to like so much.

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I just really don't like the idea of playing such a fragile manabase without Stifles as protection, but I suppose I'll proxy up some Goyfs and try it out as well.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

So, I've been assembling BUG Delver as well, since that's a deck I love as well and I've been collecting the Goyfs right now. Currently, I have 3 Goyfs, so I'm considering dropping the one True-Name for an extra Goyf in BURG Delver. The upside of the TNN is that it pitches to FoW, is virtually another shroud creature and can block meanies all day. However, Goyf can do this as well, especially in a Goyf/Goyf staredown, it's basically the same thing, but it can break a staredown, being able to get through Goyfs/chumpblockers. The other upside to TNN is that it can nullify a Batterskull. The downside is that it screws with our Golgari Charms (even though the chance is smaller, since I only run 1 TNN). The upside is is that TNN doesn't require green, so can be cast when they're trying to cut us off from green; however, Goyf is 1 mana cheaper. Haha, these things make making a decision all the harder. What are your guys' thoughts on this?

This is my current list:
LANDS [18]:
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

CREATURES [13]:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

INSTANTS [25]:
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

SORCERIES [4]:
4 Ponder

SIDEBOARD [15]:
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Fire Covenant
1 Bitterblossom
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Kael]

That's 59 of the 60 I've been playing - for me it was -1 TNN +1 Goose (I just love that guy too much). I've been messing around with Siska's UR Delverstill list the past few weeks, so I haven't gotten much of a chance to test the "BUG with Bolts" build.

I never liked TNN in the list, personally. To me, it feels like Fastbond in Vintage Gush without black. You rarely ever draw it, and when you do, it's generally not at a time where you can use it optimally. I find that I don't have my third land yet, or I still want to hold up Pierce/Stifle/Snare, or I want to AD something.