GP Detroit

[Phoenix Ignition]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.

[DragoFireheart]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.

[Nidd]

Ah, I see what you mean now.

Still though, considering 27% of the meta at the beginning of the day turned into 75% of the metagame by top 8 means we have at the very least an interesting result happening.

It is a bit early to judge, I'll give you that, but this is a pretty big sample size and outliers like this don't usually happen.

I am biased and on the side of unbanning some of the blue control cards to try to improve the format, though, so take everything with a grain of salt.

I'm all for unbanning a few cards. In my opinion, unbanning 1 of the cantrips (Ponder or Preordain, certainly not both), Wild Nacatl, Bitterblossom, Ancestral Vision and GGT would be easy picks. Sure, Bitterblossom goes into the BG deck, but playing it in Jund or even Ajundi looks fairly suicidal and there are certainly enough tools to deal with it.
While Wild nacatl might actually kill non-Naya Aggro (outside of Affinity), there are no "real" Aggro decks in the format, anyways, so the format would actually gain something.
1 of the cantrips would strenghten Storm and Twin, while also strenghtening Control. Ancestral Vision would also be a nice boost to Control (or even Combo. Suspending it against Control looks very sweet.).
GGT is a complete joke, keep Dread Return on the list and all it does is improve this terribad Dredgevine deck that noone cares about currently.
I also think Chrome Mox would be nice to have in the format, but that would probably mean that Twin would become overwhelmingly strong. Splinter Twin would have to get the axe.
Finally, Sword of the Meek is fine by me. What's holding back Control in the moment is the lack of a good finisher and Sword of the Meek solves that just fine.

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.

No.

[DragoFireheart]

No.

Then enjoy your hilarious ban list of stuff like Wild Nacatl and Blazing Shoal.

[JDK]

Get over your personal hatred for me saying that there need to be more forms of nonbasic hate in the format, it's childish.

I don't hate you, I just wanted to remind you about our "discussion" about GB.dec a few days ago. "Told you so", nothing more.

Anyway, classic Drago in here.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't hate you, I just wanted to remind you about our "discussion" about GB.dec a few days ago. "Told you so", nothing more.

I suppose you'd be happier with someone who is rigid and doesn't change their opinion with new information? Seriously, think about what you're trying to get out of your comments so far. Would you be happier if I take up the opposite position as you just so you can keep derailing this topic with random arguments and inflammatory posts?

As for reprinting Wasteland, I don't think it's the stupidest idea proposed so far. In fact, I find it worse that decks can decide to splash two colors just for Ajani Vengeant and still make top 8 at a GP. There is so little punishment for excessively greedy manabases that I don't think unbanning stuff like Jace or Ancestral would even change anything, the BGx decks could just as easily throw in a couple blue shocks and play the new cards as well. Even Wild Nacatl is easy enough to splash 1 Sacred Foundry for and use in these decks.

Fundamentally different cards, like Thopter Foundry and GolgariGT would be good to freshen up the archetypes, possibly, but I think they're too underpowered at this point to do anything.

[DragoFireheart]

As for reprinting Wasteland, I don't think it's the stupidest idea proposed so far. In fact, I find it worse that decks can decide to splash two colors just for Ajani Vengeant and still make top 8 at a GP. There is so little punishment for excessively greedy manabases that I don't think unbanning stuff like Jace or Ancestral would even change anything, the BGx decks could just as easily throw in a couple blue shocks and play the new cards as well. Even Wild Nacatl is easy enough to splash 1 Sacred Foundry for and use in these decks.

Fundamentally different cards, like Thopter Foundry and GolgariGT would be good to freshen up the archetypes, possibly, but I think they're too underpowered at this point to do anything.

Which is ironic since they're banned. FFS, Dredge isn't a DTB in Legacy because of that 1 CMC planeswalker. WotC is utterly incompetent when it comes to managing Modern. It's a shame because Modern has great potential too.

EDIT: I also find it disheartening that Jund is doing so well again despite the ban on Bloodbraid Elf. That to me says that WotC banned the wrong card. I wonder what other cards on the banned list are wrong cards?

[Phoenix Ignition]

EDIT: I also find it disheartening that Jund is doing so well again despite the ban on Bloodbraid Elf. That to me says that WotC banned the wrong card. I wonder what other cards on the banned list are wrong cards?

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in decks that are basically, "good cards thrown together," it may be impossible to just ban 1 card and hope to make the deck even with other decks. The best card of a few archetypes of decks was banned at the start of modern, but many of these cards were make-or-break the archetype cards. Faeries can't be nearly as good without Bitterblossom, Jace being banned hurts true control decks beyond measure, Thopter Foundry was pretty much it's own archetype of control. Some of these cards were just leagues above other ones.

Bloodbraid was pretty good card advantage. It mid-late game jund nearly unstoppable. But even without it, they have stuff like Liliana, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze. These cards are just so much card advantage, SOoze is the only one that doesn't actually provide card advantage against every deck, but life gain and killing Graveyard combos is close enough. The deck is playing a bunch of anti-synergetic cards (Goyf + any of the graveyard removal stuff), but the cards are just so good on their own that it's really hard to point to a specific problem.

I'd expect any 1 of these cards being banned in BBE's place wouldn't stop the deck from being Tier 1, there are just so many forms of card advantage in these colors (and so few in other colors).

[DragoFireheart]

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in decks that are basically, "good cards thrown together," it may be impossible to just ban 1 card and hope to make the deck even with other decks. The best card of a few archetypes of decks was banned at the start of modern, but many of these cards were make-or-break the archetype cards. Faeries can't be nearly as good without Bitterblossom, Jace being banned hurts true control decks beyond measure, Thopter Foundry was pretty much it's own archetype of control. Some of these cards were just leagues above other ones.

Bloodbraid was pretty good card advantage. It mid-late game jund nearly unstoppable. But even without it, they have stuff like Liliana, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze. These cards are just so much card advantage, SOoze is the only one that doesn't actually provide card advantage against every deck, but life gain and killing Graveyard combos is close enough. The deck is playing a bunch of anti-synergetic cards (Goyf + any of the graveyard removal stuff), but the cards are just so good on their own that it's really hard to point to a specific problem.

I'd expect any 1 of these cards being banned in BBE's place wouldn't stop the deck from being Tier 1, there are just so many forms of card advantage in these colors (and so few in other colors).

I personally don't think BBE is as good as any of those other cards, but I digress.

Then maybe the solution is to ban all of those cards if WotC does not want to unban stuff to try and balance Jund out. Course, if WotC does that...

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't think they're as stupid as everyone thinks. At least in some respects.

They know that Modern became a laughing stock when it got bans on the best cards at every opportunity. In fact, I think that's where most of The Sourcer's opinions on the format came from. They even unbanned Valakut as their last official action affecting the metagame in the format, which did make a small splash and 1 of those decks even top 16ed this GP. I expect they're just being extremely cautious now. Modern has been under fire for all of these bannings and I expect it's the last thing they'll want to do.

Edit: Honestly if I had to bet on it I'd say they unban ~something~ if this BGx train continues for the next few months.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think they're as stupid as everyone thinks. At least in some respects.

They know that Modern became a laughing stock when it got bans on the best cards at every opportunity. In fact, I think that's where most of The Sourcer's opinions on the format came from. They even unbanned Valakut as their last official action affecting the metagame in the format, which did make a small splash and 1 of those decks even top 16ed this GP. I expect they're just being extremely cautious now. Modern has been under fire for all of these bannings and I expect it's the last thing they'll want to do.

I can agree with that. They're incompetent at times but I don't think they're stupid per say. I believe as well that they are quite well aware of the negative views held about Modern.

Edit: Honestly if I had to bet on it I'd say they unban ~something~ if this BGx train continues for the next few months.

Here is the current Modern banned list:


Ancestral Vision
Ancient Den
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Chrome Mox
Cloudpost
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Seat of the Synod
Second Sunrise
Seething Song
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Skullclamp
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
Wild Nacatl


They wont be unbanning artifact lands or Skullclamp. I'm sure the horrors of Mirridon in Standard is still alive in their minds. I also don't think they will touch anything that can speed up combo decks, so the mox, cantrips, and other boosters are off the list. Now it looks like this:

Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Blazing Shoal
Bloodbraid Elf
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Green Sun's Zenith
Hypergenesis
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Punishing Fire
Second Sunrise
Sensei's Divining Top
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of the Meek
Umezawa's Jitte
Wild Nacatl

I can't imagine them unbanning anything that will help Jund. Jitte, Elf, GSZ, Punishing Fire, and Top can't be choices. Also, some other combo cards likely will stay on there like Shoal, Glimpse, and Dark Depths. They can't unban stuff like Ancestral Vision because cascade cards still exist.


Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Stoneforge Mystic
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I don't WoTC will ever consider JTMS or SFM after their existence in standard together.


Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

[Lord Seth]

Reprint Force of Will and Wasteland.

So your suggestion on how to limit the power of BGx midrange is to bring in a card that's ineffective against it and a card that improves it?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are safe but WotC hates dredge decks, and has written about it previously as a failure. I believe they will stay banned regardless.

Mental Misstep is a terrible card in all respects and will not be unbanned in Modern or Legacy ever.

Ancestral Visions can be unbanned because the cards with cascade are currently extremely awful in any normal deck. I don't think Preordain or Ponder are that scary, although if all of the cantrips are unbanned it probably would result in combo becoming a decent part of the metagame (which WotC also dislikes). Preordain or Ponder could probably be safely unbanned at this point, though I bet they're still hesitant on those.

Jace is iffy, as turn 3 Jace off of Deathrite Shaman is just too easy to do, but I'd like to see it happen. It'd give blue a viable form of card advantage that right now is only being held up by Snapcaster (which gets eaten alive by DRS + Ooze) and Cryptic Command (pretty hard to use in most decks). It won't happen unless they reprint it though, because like I said before, holy gods is that expensive.

[DragoFireheart]

So your suggestion on how to limit the power of BGx midrange is to bring in a card that's ineffective against it and a card that improves it?

FoW is terrible against Jund. However, it's great against other combo decks. If other combo decks can be put into check with FoW instead of a ban list, combo decks can be allowed to become faster, which will make them better at killing Jund, which will make Jund weaker. Jund works well with Wasteland but wasteland also works against Jund as well depending on the deck using it. It would also be used to keep the combo decks in check.

My thoughts were to allow decks to keep Jund in check rather than a banned list.

Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return are safe but WotC hates dredge decks, and has written about it previously as a failure. I believe they will stay banned regardless.

Mental Misstep is a terrible card in all respects and will not be unbanned in Modern or Legacy ever.

Ancestral Visions can be unbanned because the cards with cascade are currently extremely awful in any normal deck. I don't think Preordain or Ponder are that scary, although if all of the cantrips are unbanned it probably would result in combo becoming a decent part of the metagame (which WotC also dislikes). Preordain or Ponder could probably be safely unbanned at this point, though I bet they're still hesitant on those.

Jace is iffy, as turn 3 Jace off of Deathrite Shaman is just too easy to do, but I'd like to see it happen. It'd give blue a viable form of card advantage that right now is only being held up by Snapcaster (which gets eaten alive by DRS + Ooze) and Cryptic Command (pretty hard to use in most decks). It won't happen unless they reprint it though, because like I said before, holy gods is that expensive.

Yeah I forgot about Mental Misstep. Goes without saying! I disagree with the cascade because even in Shardless BUG the 2/2 isn't that great but the cascade effect is so powerful who cares?

So unban the kitty and sotm is what we agree on.

[Lord Seth]

Bitterblossom
Dread Return
Golgari Grave-Troll
Mental Misstep
Sword of the Meek
Wild Nacatl

I've narrowed the list down to this so far. Any disagreements?

I don't think they'll ever unban Mental Misstep. The thing about that card is that it's either completely innocuous (as in Standard) or absurdly format-warping (as it was in Legacy). Which way it would be in Modern I'm not sure, but it's just a gigantic risk without much potential gain.

But Ancestral Vision should be on that final list. You reject it because "cascade cards exist" but all the cascade cards suck. Bloodbraid Elf is banned and Shardless Agent doesn't exist in the format. What, are you honestly going to forego all cards that cost less than 3 mana just so you can play Ardent Plea and cascade into Ancestral Vision? It's crippling your deck just so you get to cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

Even if you do just play a more "regular" deck and hope to get lucky and cascade into it, you're still playing very subpar cards just so you can hopefully get lucky and, again, cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

[DragoFireheart]

What, are you honestly going to forego all cards that cost less than 3 mana just so you can play Ardent Plea and cascade into Ancestral Vision? It's crippling your deck just so you get to cast Concentrate for 1 less mana.

Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?

[Lord Seth]

Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?

Because Shardless Agent is a zillion times better than the cascade cards currently in Modern.

Not to mention you have much better stuff to cascade into.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Shardless BUG does this in Legacy, why wouldn't it happen here?

Because Shardless Agent isn't in Modern. Using Ardent plea to draw 4 cards? Be my guest but that mean's you're not running Path, Serum Visions, Remand, and basically all of the rest of the removal/counterspells that make UW decent in Modern.

The Demonic Dread and Violent Outburst are just bad in general, so if someone is fitting those in to draw 4, they can be my guest (and they aren't running Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, any hand hate... etc.)

[DragoFireheart]

Because Shardless Agent is a zillion times better than the cascade cards currently in Modern.

Not to mention you have much better stuff to cascade into.

Well, the cascade card in question is likely Ardent Plea. U/W. Could go R since that's a cool color. Let's assume Visions was legal. What else could you cascade into for UWR (as an example)?

Snapcaster Mage
Path to Exile
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix


There might be more, but what if we did green?

Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Scavenging Ooze

Ok, but what if we did four colors (making white a very light splash) and did BUGw? Remember, land destruction is not nearly as prevalent as it is in the other Eternal formats. The total list of good stuff might look like this:

Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Snapcaster Mage
Abrupt Decay
Thoughtseize
Dark Confidant
Ancestral Vision

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't see the problem, if you're running all sorts of 1-2 casting cost stuff and hope to hit Ancestral Visions your chance is going to be extremely small. What's more, in Modern there aren't a lot of alternate cost cards that let you get away with skipping the 1-2 cost cards (like Force of Will).

If you're diluting your deck with bad cards like Ardent Plea and giving yourself a 1 in 6 shot of hitting an Ancestral Visions, by all means go ahead.

Casting 3 mana for that chance isn't really scary when it's attached to such a bad card.