Bestow vs 'can't cast' effects

[TsumiBand]

There's a bit of a back-and-forth regarding why Bestow works in a certain way when compared against various "can't cast" effects; namely Aurelia's Fury and Moonhold. Allegedly - one can cast a Bestow creature as an Aura while under Aurelia's Fury's "can't cast noncreature spells" but one cannot do the same while Moonhold is in effect for "can't cast creature spells". However, the reason as to why it should be so is debated.

In my view - and I may be wrong - the relevant rule is 601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast.

Aurelia's Fury prevents noncreature spells from being cast. The first action one takes when casting is to move the spell to the stack; since Bestow does not apply until after the spell is on the stack, Aurelia's Fury does not prevent it from going onto the stack, and it cannot remove it from the stack if its card type changes.

Moonhold prevents creature spells from being cast. I cannot begin to cast a creature while this effect is active; therefore I cannot even put a creature spell with Bestow onto the stack in the first place.

Originally Posted by http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...?x=mtg/faq/ths
You don't choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you're casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.

The counter-argument was that its card type in hand has nothing to do with why it cannot be cast.

How the object exists in the hand isn't what Moonhold or Aurelia's Fury are concerned about. The reason it works is because, once on the stack, when casting a spell, spell type restrictions are checked before modal choices that do things like change a spell's type. That is why casting a creature card with Bestow doesn't trigger Animar, but does bypass spell-type restrictions.

So, we both believe that we understand the situation, but for different reasons. What is the proper explanation to the stated situations?

EDIT: Here is the thread for discussion where it originally came up - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-thread/page54

[rufus]

I think (and this is splitting hairs) there may be a distinction between "can't cast spell" and "can't cast card". Since Moonhold refers to cards and Aurelia's Fury refers to spells, the interaction with bestow may end up being different.

[Cire]

Wait. . . how does Bestow work with Blood Funnel ?

[Koby]

If a Bestow card is being cast with Bestow, it is not a creature spell, but instead a Enchantment - Aura spell.

[rufus]

Wait. . . how does Bestow work with Blood Funnel ?

Yeah, that's one to add to the list with Tallowisp and Kor Spiritdancer and a bunch of 'casts a creature' triggers.

It's clear that, if you're casting with bestow, the cost will be reduced because bestow goes into effect before the casting cost is determined.

It's not clear whether the counter ability is triggered, or if it applies if the spell changes types before the counter. Although, since it doesn't seem to target, the counter probably still takes effect even if the spell has changed into a creature.
Edit: It won't change (by itself) until the countering effect has resolved, so this is not an issue.

However, it's not immediately clear whether the counter triggered ability goes off. (AFAICT, Until now, spells haven't had their types change while being cast.) So the triggers might have 'before and after' like the Second Chance conditional triggers, trigger based on the card properties at the start of the casting process, or at the ones at the end of the casting process.

[TsumiBand]

If a Bestow card is being cast with Bestow, it is not a creature spell, but instead a Enchantment - Aura spell.

That's true but it isn't the relevant conundrum.

I'll point to the Theros FAQ, again:

New Keyword: Bestow
Bestow is a new keyword that represents the ability of some enchantment creatures, denizens of the gods’ realm of Nyx, to infuse their essences into others. Creatures with bestow can be cast either as creatures or as Auras targeting a creature.
Nimbus Naiad
{2}{U}
Enchantment Creature — Nymph
2/2
Bestow {4}{U} (If you cast this card for its bestow cost, it’s an Aura spell with enchant creature. It becomes a creature again if it’s not attached to a creature.)
Flying
Enchanted creature gets +2/+2 and has flying.
The official rules for bestow are as follows:
702.102. Bestow
702.102a Bestow represents two static abilities, one that functions while the card with bestow is on the stack and another that functions both while it’s on stack and while it’s on the battlefield. “Bestow [cost]” means “You may cast this card by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost.” and “If you chose to pay this spell’s bestow cost, it becomes an Aura enchantment and gains enchant creature. These effects last until one of two things happens: this spell has an illegal target as it resolves and or the permanent this spell becomes, becomes unattached.” Paying a card’s bestow cost follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e–g.
702.102b If a spell’s controller chooses to pay its bestow cost, that player chooses a legal target for that Aura spell as defined by its enchant creature ability and rule 601.2c. See also rule 303.4.
702.102c A spell’s controller can’t choose to pay its bestow cost unless that player can choose a legal target for that spell after it becomes an Aura spell.
702.102d As an Aura spell with bestow begins resolving, if its target is illegal, the effect making it an Aura spell ends. It continues resolving as a creature spell and will be put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller. This is an exception to rule 608.3a.
* You don’t choose whether the spell is going to be an Aura spell or not until the spell is already on the stack. Abilities that affect when you can cast a spell, such as flash, will apply to the creature card in whatever zone you’re casting it from. For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.
* On the stack, a spell with bestow is either a creature spell or an Aura spell. It’s never both.
* Unlike other Aura spells, an Aura spell with bestow isn’t countered if its target is illegal as it begins to resolve. Rather, the effect making it an Aura spell ends, it loses enchant creature, it returns to being an enchantment creature spell, and it resolves and enters the battlefield as an enchantment creature.
* Unlike other Auras, an Aura with bestow isn’t put into its owner’s graveyard if it becomes unattached. Rather, the effect making it an Aura ends, it loses enchant creature, and it remains on the battlefield as an enchantment creature. It can attack (and its {T} abilities can be activated, if it has any) on the turn it becomes unattached if it’s been under your control continuously, even as an Aura, since your most recent turn began.
* If a permanent with bestow enters the battlefield by any method other than being cast, it will be an enchantment creature. You can’t choose to pay the bestow cost and have it become an Aura.
* Auras attached to a creature don’t become tapped when the creature becomes tapped. Except in some rare cases, an Aura with bestow remains untapped when it becomes unattached and becomes a creature.

Emphasis mine.

To me this clearly imparts the notion that its cards types in-hand are the primary factors in determining whether or not a spell could be cast under "players can't cast [spell type]" effects.
If an effect said, "Players can't cast Auras", it would not affect a creature with Bestow because it went on the stack as an Enchantment Creature.
If an effect says "Players can't cast creatures", it would affect creatures with Bestow regardless of whether they were being played for their Bestow cost or not, because it cannot even be placed on the stack due to the rules about casting.

601.5 - A player can't begin to cast a spell that's prohibited from being cast.

I think I'm right about this, but I wanted to be sure, because sometimes I assume things work a particular way and I'm right, but for the wrong reasons, which is not very great.

[Koby]

If a Bestow card is being cast with Bestow, it is not a creature spell, but instead a Enchantment - Aura spell.

Emphasis added.

I think (and this is splitting hairs) there may be a distinction between "can't cast spell" and "can't cast card". Since Moonhold refers to cards and Aurelia's Fury refers to spells, the interaction with bestow may end up being different.

rufus already pointed out the difference between casting "spells" and casting "cards". Same can also be applied with Meddling Mage which cares only about cards cast, but not copies of spells of the same name.

In the case of Moonhold, it prevents cards (checks printed text) from being cast.
In the case of Aurelia's Fury, it prevents spells (checks modes) from being cast.

Bestow changes how a spell is cast. A card rarely changes its printed text (Sleight of Mind notwithstanding).

It is also the reason why Animate Dead targets "creature cards" rather than "creatures". The former is the physical aspect, the latter is an object on the battlefield (and may not necessarily be a creature card - i.e. Opalescence).

Cards remain unchanging in all zones.
Spells exist only on the stack.

Bestow cards can only exist as an Aura when it is cast as a spell with its bestow cost. Any other way to put them onto the battlefield will put them there as a creature.

EDIT: clarify.

[rufus]

rufus already pointed out the difference between casting "spells" and casting "cards".

It might just be a templating thing. Consider Exclusion Ritual which does bridge the gap a little by comparing the properties of a card and a spell. (If they make another un-set, I kind of want them to print a nameless 2/2 creature with no casting cost and morph 0.)

Cards remain unchanging in all zones.

Not so much. Stuff like Painters Servant will change cards all over the place.

Based on the way that split cards behave, say with Iona, Shield of Emeria, I now believe that the bestow will be interpreted to mean that cards cast with bestow are considered to be auras at all times on the stack until the spell resolves. I can't help but think the phrasing of the ability in the official rules could have been a bit better.

[Koby]

Good catch. That statement is untrue after finding a few exceptional cases.

[phazonmutant]

This situation was explained pretty much verbatim in Riki Hayashi's recent article on SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Is-Theros.html
For those that don't know him, he's a well-respected L3.

When you bestow, you technically start out by casting a creature spell because that is what is printed on the card. Since the base state of the card is that of a creature, when you first put the spell on the stack, it starts out as a creature spell, and it doesn't become a noncreature until the step in casting a spell where you decide whether to pay it with an alternate cost (this is the same point where you would choose to pitch a blue card for Force of Will). It's a very small window where it's a creature spell. Basically, it only interacts with things like Aurelia's Fury.

If you get targeted with an Aurelia's Fury during your upkeep, you can no longer cast noncreature spells during your turn. This includes instants, sorceries, and, yes, Auras. However, a bestowed card doesn't become an Aura until after you have started casting it as a creature spell and then partway through choose to use the alternate bestow cost to change it into a noncreature spell. By then, it's too late. You started off trying to cast a creature spell, which is all the Aurelia's Fury restriction cares about.

To address Koby's point, no. More verbosely, it's a templating thing for everything I can think of. As Riki mentioned, while it's true that at all points where you could interact with the spell on the stack it's an Aura, it's a creature for the first half of casting the spell (the process of moving a card from a zone to the stack).

[rufus]

When you bestow, you technically start out by casting a creature spell because that is what is printed on the card. Since the base state of the card is that of a creature, when you first put the spell on the stack, it starts out as a creature spell, and it doesn't become a noncreature until the step in casting a spell where you decide whether to pay it with an alternate cost (this is the same point where you would choose to pitch a blue card for Force of Will). It's a very small window where it's a creature spell. Basically, it only interacts with things like Aurelia's Fury.

If you get targeted with an Aurelia's Fury during your upkeep, you can no longer cast noncreature spells during your turn. This includes instants, sorceries, and, yes, Auras. However, a bestowed card doesn't become an Aura until after you have started casting it as a creature spell and then partway through choose to use the alternate bestow cost to change it into a noncreature spell. By then, it's too late. You started off trying to cast a creature spell, which is all the Aurelia's Fury restriction cares about.

I'm not sure you "start out by casting a creature spell". A card gets moved on to the stack as part of the casting process and can have it's properties changed, as part of the casting process, before then. This happens with abilities like morph, and with split cards.

When 'you chose to pay the bestow cost' is vague. Riki suggests that the ability takes effect when the alternative cost choice is announced 601.2b, but the choice could have happened earlier. (IRL players will typically make that choice before playing the card, right?) If - mechanically speaking - the choice happens before the spell goes on the stack, then the static ability is in effect, and the bestow spell is never a creature on the stack until it resolves.

I don't know whether it matters in this context, but the passage conflates "can't cast cards" and "can't casts spells".

N.B.: The example is a little sloppy. Aurelia's Fury only prevents players who have been damaged by it from casting spells, so if, for example, a player is targeted, but the damage is prevented, he or she can still cast non-creature cards.

[TsumiBand]

I'm not sure you "start out by casting a creature spell". A card gets moved on to the stack as part of the casting process and can have it's properties changed, as part of the casting process, before then. This happens with abilities like morph, and with split cards.

When 'you chose to pay the bestow cost' is vague. Riki suggests that the ability takes effect when the alternative cost choice is announced 601.2b, but the choice could have happened earlier. (IRL players will typically make that choice before playing the card, right?) If - mechanically speaking - the choice happens before the spell goes on the stack, then the static ability is in effect, and the bestow spell is never a creature on the stack until it resolves.

I don't know whether it matters in this context, but the passage conflates "can't cast cards" and "can't casts spells".

N.B.: The example is a little sloppy. Aurelia's Fury only prevents players who have been damaged by it from casting spells, so if, for example, a player is targeted, but the damage is prevented, he or she can still cast non-creature cards.

A player probably already decided that a spell would be cast for its Bestow cost, but the game treats the decision as having happened after it's on the stack already. That's why controlling Yeva, Nature's Herald lets you cast a creature with Flash and summarily lets you cast a creature for its Bestow cost as an Aura with Flash.

And yeah this whole "cards vs spells" thing is a bummer. I honestly think it's a red herring in this discussion; really the point of contention seems to revolve around when the card/spell type actually changes. The Theros FAQ and Tabak have been clear on this; the spell changes types after it has already been moved onto the stack as a creature spell. It follows creature casting timing restrictions, and then when the Bestow choice is made later, the spell loses the type "Creature" and gains the subtype "Aura".

I find Riki's post to be both in-line with Tabak's message and additionally fairly clarifying for aspects of the confusion. I'm still not entirely sold on checking for triggers and stuff - did I trigger "when you cast a creature" effects, or "when you cast an Aura" effects? I'll need to read moar. But I am positive that the spell initially moves onto the stack as a creature and then changes when the Bestow cost is actually paid.

[Koby]

Just got confirmation from Matt Tabak (@TabakRules) that Bestow cards are indeed "creature spells" until the Bestow option is picked during the steps in casting it. Thus, it would become affected by any interaction that involves creature "cards" and "spells"; at least initially.

[TsumiBand]

Just got confirmation from Matt Tabak (@TabakRules) that Bestow cards are indeed "creature spells" until the Bestow option is picked during the steps in casting it. Thus, it would become affected by any interaction that involves creature "cards" and "spells"; at least initially.

Right.

So if I'm on the right page, the relevant thing here is the object we're initially trying to put on the stack is a creature spell. Bestow may change that as you pay for the spell, but by that point the spell is already on the stack and can't be affected by a "can't cast" effect, because it is already cast. A 'can't' effect would never have allowed you to move the card/spell to the stack in the first place.

[Koby]

Right.

So if I'm on the right page, the relevant thing here is the object we're initially trying to put on the stack is a creature spell. Bestow may change that as you pay for the spell, but by that point the spell is already on the stack and can't be affected by a "can't cast" effect, because it is already cast. A 'can't' effect would never have allowed you to move the card/spell to the stack in the first place.

That I'm not so certain, and trying to clarify with him. Stay tuned.

[phazonmutant]

Right.

So if I'm on the right page, the relevant thing here is the object we're initially trying to put on the stack is a creature spell. Bestow may change that as you pay for the spell, but by that point the spell is already on the stack and can't be affected by a "can't cast" effect, because it is already cast. A 'can't' effect would never have allowed you to move the card/spell to the stack in the first place.

Correct, although technically bestow changes its type as you choose alternate costs, before you pay (if only slightly).

[Offler]

This situation was explained pretty much verbatim in Riki Hayashi's recent article on SCG: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Is-Theros.html
For those that don't know him, he's a well-respected L3.



To address Koby's point, no. More verbosely, it's a templating thing for everything I can think of. As Riki mentioned, while it's true that at all points where you could interact with the spell on the stack it's an Aura, it's a creature for the first half of casting the spell (the process of moving a card from a zone to the stack).

As I was reading about bestow for some time and wondering how it works, now the things are getting somewhere.

1. People in my city expected bestow to be an ability, not an alternate cost.
2. Riki's explanation seems to me very precise. At the time when card with Bestow is on my hand and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is in play, I can cast it normally or for its Bestow cost.

For example, an effect that said you can cast creature spells as though they have flash will allow you to cast a creature card with bestow as an Aura spell anytime you could cast an instant.

3. If something say that "Non-creature cant be cast" it does not apply to "Enchantment Creature" with Bestow from same reason as Teferi's Flash DOES apply. At the time when its being cast its still "Enchantment creature". It changes its type to "Enchantment - Aura" only in case if I decide to pay Bestow cost.

Is my understanding of the Bestow correct?

At all this mechanic will give some headaches to my co-players once we start to discuss about it...

[rufus]

Another wrinkle - does casting with bestow count as a creature spell for the purposes of cards like Insist?