I like Zillas list a lot, except for the Hymns. Discard just doesn't make sense when you can blow up all the lands and sit pretty behing Daze and Pierce. I'm not so sure if TNN is really that great here either, and agree with Zilla that Goyf is just superior.
Surgical Extraction definitely gets the nod for gy hate of choice in the 'board, I would also play at least 3 Snapcaster.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly.Originally Posted by Jander78
"Got any trade boogas?"
I just like TNN more as a 3 drop. Snapcaster is nice, but he's a 2/1 body. This deck need resilient evasive creatures,Tombstalker is a better 3drop also.
Thanks, I really like the idea of UB delver. To be honest, I don't own any goyfs which is why I really want to make a UB version of delver that works well. If we can have just as many threats and disruption as the tri color delvers without the greedy mana bases they have I think we can develop a pretty good deck here. The way I see it we have access to the best 2 LD cards in the format (not to mention stifle shenanigans). We have access to the two best discard options. There is a stable mana base. We also have strong threats like TNN and Tombstalker. Strix is a beast against any large creatures, especially answering goyf and making reanimator think twice about attacking with griselbrand. Liliana is a great option at a 3 drop, and if you want more power, you could even consider adding a JTMS.
I'm considering doing something with adding death's shadow and possibly a snuff out/watery grave or 2 to help with the shadow. I think the list is pretty decent threat-wise without them though, Tombstalker is a beast.
I also see some value in a volrath's stronghold or Creeping tar pit as additional lands and Phantasmal image or Main Deck Vendilion cliques/snapcaster mages as added disruption.
I would like to add a ponder or 2 also, but I can't figure out what to cut. Maybe dismember and a daze. I find daze to be pretty underwhelming any time after turn 4 and it is usually just something I pitch to FOW. Any suggestions for a replacement (or an argument to keep it in)
In my humble opinion, I really don't feel the need for deathrite shaman in this list. It kind of kills the tempo of the deck not to mention having to add a bayou or two and streatching the mana base thinner. If I'm going to add green to the list I might as well just play abrupt decays and buy some goyfs and call it bug delver.
I'd much rather thoughtseize or leave land open for stifle or play a delver that can possibly swing for 3 next turn. Turn two is really my bread and butter anyway. I don't wan't to have to leave land open for deathrite when I can either hymn, play sinkhole, or play strix and cantrip and have something to combat a goyf. Of I could ponder/brianstorm and leave one open for stifle or drop a delver. I just feel like not playing deathrite leaves much more options than actually playing him. I do think he is very useful mid to late game however.
What are people considering for a sideboard:
submerge, pithing needle, Vendilion clique, snapcaster, an extra TNN or Tombstalker, tormod's crypt, spell peirce, disfigure, maybe flusterstorm. Not sure yet.
Thoughts/ideas are greatly appreciated.
Tombstalker is a great card, but Bob is just better in most cases. You could probably play one 'Stalker with four Bobs and be fine.
Snappy isn't there for the body, it's the utility he offers. I see no reason to not play green though. It gives you Goyf, Decay, and Shamans lifegain ability which is pretty relevant against Reanimator and Dredge.
I'd start here if I were to play this-
//LANDS-19
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
//CREATURES-16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
//SPELLS-25
4 Stifle
3 Sinkhole
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
EDIT-Derp forgot the Delvers....
Also, I fail to see how DRS kills the tempo of the deck. It virtually gets you ahead on land drops and pings for damage later on.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
The reason not to play green is that this isn't bug delver, I think it has a separate thread. Of course we could play green, but that's not the point I thought. Your list looks really good, but it's basically bug delver with sinkholes.
I see your point about DRS and maybe killing the tempo is not the right way to say it, but it doesn't actually get you ahead on land drops and pinging late game isn't really what I want to do, I would prefer to drop a TNN or stalker and use that as a win con. Also, I would prefer to try not to splash green. The deck is pretty strong without it. I would consider running DRS using just the black and mana ability or maybe add just one bayou.
For your list, I would add a bayou or 2 instead of the 3 trops because sinkhole is a BB drop that you will want to play on T2 and the 2 bayous will give you a better chance to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
I'm pretty happy with how my most recent list plays, I got a bunch of testing in today, and it felt pretty smooth. I had a mull to 6 that turned out disgusting; I accelerated into two TNN off the back of a DRS, and went to town. Second game I dropped a stalker and mopped up after controlling my opponent's mana, and pinging with DRS. Delver was consistently removed, but the elf tends to stay around, making it a better turn 1 play. I might add 1 bayou so that I can exile reanimator targets with DRS, but other than that, I haven't had a game where I felt outclassed, and I'm pretty happy with just playing UB. Sometimes they hit mana consistently, and you don't draw into your LD, but you can usually slow them down enough during the early game to establish dominance with your superior threats.
So far I've played against belcher, UWR delver, BUG control, enchantress, D&T, reanimator, and it's performed pretty well. In my opinion, DRS is absolutely essential if you want to run TNN in a tempo deck, since it makes the mana so much better, and provides excellent support for your airborne and unblockable threats once you get into the midgame. That extra turn of acceleration lets you put so much more pressure on your opponent, and lets you go down to 18 lands pretty comfortably. More importantly, it accelerates you while slowing your opponent down.
With creatures, we really want the necessary 25+ spells to flip delver; personally, I think 27-29 is about the right number, but then, I tend to have poor luck on blind flips (I drew 8 land in a row in one game today, though I managed to win off the back of a sinkhole and wasteland on a manascrewed opponent). I also run a singleton creeping tarpit, which is cheeky given how lean the mana is, but hasn't caused *too* many problems so far, and has been a benefit in some matchups. I might remove it if it starts to noticeably cost me games.
Edit: Also, I'm not sure that goyf is necessarily what you want in this deck; TS goes straight over the top for 5, giving you the ability to completely ignore ground-based threats.
This deck seems really interesting! I might test it out.
new list with nemesis and deathrite
=> can you give me advice ?
ps : dont care about manabase and side (it's test)
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Diabolic edict
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
I think you should be running 4 DRS, since the acceleration is what makes casting TNN viable in this kind of deck, and makes you more resilient to land hate. Also, I don't think bob, snaps and young pyro are really doing much for you. Bob is awesome card advantage, but in a tempo deck, it's often better to just drop a threat that can win the game on its own, rather than drawing more cards. Bob doesn't really do that, and (IMO) is better in midrange lists that aim to pull ahead on cards. The same goes for YP; I think his real home is likely to be in a midrange list that abuses his ability to crap out tokens. The synergy with Cabal Therapy and Probe is awesome, and I ran it myself for a little while, but I eventually found that a hardcore mana denial and disruption strategy was more effective, the reason being that hand destruction won't stop your one threat from being removed.
Slim your creature suite down to the 11-13 most essential threats; if you want to go grixis, i would stick with DRS, Delver, maybe TNN, and toss up between either tombstalker or grim lavamancer. You probably don't want both due to the anti-synergy between the two cards, but TS will help you close out games, whereas lavamancer will help you dominate the field. Bob isn't much use since he doesn't attack, and is an extra card that won't flip delver, and the same goes for YP. Also, I would cut the probes and go up to 4 ponders; whether or not you include stifle is up to you, though I personally like to keep it around to exile suspended ancestrals, and stop liliana from edicting my TNN.
At this stage, you have a bunch of flex slots that you can fill out how you like. You can include chain lightning for the additional reach with lightning bolt, edicts, dismember, spell pierce, hymn, etc. I suspect that if you had a bunch of bolt effects with DRS, TNN and Delver, the deck would be pretty scary. Also consider spell pierce, it's one of the best counters in the format right now, and only gets better with wasteland (which your list probably does need, if only to keep from getting dominated by punishing fire decks, and to slow down combo decks like reanimator).
Tombstalker and Delver would like to see some Ponders in there. Baleful Strix is OK, though only really good, if run alongside equipment, actually it doesn't fit a tempo scheme at all imo. Also: -1 Island, -1 Swamp, + 1 Bloodstained Mire, +1 Marshflats/Tarn. This not only makes it easier obtaining UU/BB, but also is a nice way of getting cards in the yard, being able to shuffle away BS cards, enhancing Ponders AND Delvers - you can, reveal, pump him and then fetch shuffle and draw another card.
That's how I'd adjust it:
3 TNN
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
1 Liliana of the veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Dismember
2 Vapor Snag
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Seems like a decent list, though I'm not sure if thoughtseize is what you want as a tempo deck. I think I would change them to an extra spell pierce, and complete the 4-of FoW and either ponder or daze. That's just me though. Have you tried testing this kind of list?
In the spirit of argument for playing Thoughtseize, examine this line of play:
Turn 1: Underground Sea, Thoughtseize, Daze in-hand. If you daze, a really cool play is a t2 Sea -> Delver or Shaman.
Are those not insanely strong plays? I think that's awesome. And in a 2-c list, so slick.
-ABC
I think Deathrite Shaman is really good, but it does add something else to compete for that turn 1 mana. This maybe make Stifle slightly awkward. Focusing on True-Name Nemesis sort of changes the game plan to a 3 cost threat, so maybe the acceleration is worth sandbagging the disruption but when I think of tempo decks, that turn one Island should be used for a Delver or a Stifle. I have no answer, just thoughts. Another thought is Shadow of Doubt. It was mentioned earlier, and I like it. It counters a fetchland activation, not to mention Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Imperial Recruiter, Natural Order, and Enlightened Tutor, for the same mana investment as Sinkhole, and it draws a card. It doesn't have the ability to take apart an existing manabase, but maybe would be worth investigating some sort of Stifle/Sinkhole/Shadow of Doubt split. It can always be cycled if it's dead, and plays well with Snapcaster Mage. And lastly, I think Hymn to Tourach is too good of a card to not play, unless you have some really compelling reasons. (Like a meta full of Goblins and Elves) I could be wrong, but in the current meta of "fair" decks and combo decks, Hymn just rules. It's alao a great turn 2 answer to their own turn 3 TNN:)
LOL. Then basic lands must be useless as well? Your counterargument against casting sinkhole is this giant straw man of .... "Play awesome creatures!" "Combo off and winzzzzz!"
I think taking BUG, cutting Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay for True Name Nemesis and Sinkhole should be pretty viable, the problem tho' is that you're left with serious gaps in board removal and a 2cc wall. I think it's the kind of gambit that would have an advantage in the aggro-control mirrors but end up folding to something like Goblins.
Still have sb for games 2 and 3 - things like e. Plague and golgari charm.
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Happy to see some players looking at Blue/Black.
My recent findings,
Hymn is too good
Deathrite is way too good
Stifle/Sinkhole aren't amazing
Tarmogoyf > Tombstalker > Confidant
The last one being awkward for this thread, but an important footnote. I think the deck needs Tarmogoyf, as that 2 drop creature slot is awkward. I started thinking about Tarmogoyf over the Sinkholes, and it's just a much safer gameplan. You get almost as many free wins, and plenty more where the wall mattered. In moving away from that LD stuff, i do alot better in lategame "Stoneforge situations". Anyone been making Sinkhole better? it is very hard to make work.
Do you guys think baleful Strix is good enough without sfm to beef it up? I don't want to splash green for anything more than abrupt decay and if I splash, it will be for sfm, not goyf.
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What's your latest list?
It might be a meta thing, but my experience of stifle/sinkhole has been pretty good. From what I've learned, the first turn stifle is almost never what you want to be doing, but that doesn't make it a dead card by any means. If I'm on the play and have a DRS or delver, I will generally run it out to force them to remove it. If they don't, I can wasteland them on my turn two, and then play another one drop with stifle mana up (with DRS), or play a land and sinkhole them, or another threat with stifle mana up. If they do remove it, I can play a land, play a threat, wasteland them (and be in the same position as we would have been first turn, only with stifle mana up this time), or sinkhole them, and be two lands ahead. If they miss a land drop at that stage, they probably won't reach 3 mana all game. If they do somehow make it to planeswalker mana, I have stifle for liliana's edict, and Jace's bounce against tombstalker. At the worst, you can pitch it to force, and save your brainstorms and ponders for extra dig. That's not even mentioning undermining Iona's ETB, making griselbrand pay 7 life: do nothing, or stifling emrakul's annihilator trigger. It even gets around mom. Maybe it's just me, but I think stifle is the most underrated counter ever printed, especially in this day and age.
In your previous list, you were running 4 sinkholes, which I think is too many. The card is dead if they've managed to get ahead on lands (although if that's the case, they're likely flooding out). I run 3 because realistically, it isn't as versatile as a lot of the other cards we're running maindeck, and against some decks you'd rather side it out. That said, in a lot of matches, the tempo swing can be phenomenal, and players just aren't ready for it. Wasteland into sinkhole is just disgusting, and effectively puts you on the play if you drew first. Not to mention, the card allows you to consistently pressure mana bases harder than most other tempo decks, though you have the same amount of disruption. I guess my biggest question would be, what decks are you having trouble with? So far death and taxes is the only deck that I haven't beaten with any kind of consistency (though the games have generally been close), and I attribute that to the skill of the player, combined with the fact that they don't have many non-basics for us to target.
Forgot to mention:
I don't particularly like strix in this type of list. I think tempo decks need pressure; since you may only have one or two threats on the field at any given time, those threats need to be able to close out the game on their own. Strix is an awesome card, and I actually tried running it in UB tempo for a while, but it doesn't close out games. I had many games where I would play strix into an empty field, draw a card, and then my opponent would proceed to play around it and win the game while I chipped away for one damage at a time.
As for shadow of doubt, I played it as a two of in the board. It's awesome against reanimator, elves, and storm, but you shouldn't too worried about storm. Reanimator can be tough, but DRS makes it hard for them (especially if you include one green source), and I've yet to play against elves in any serious capacity, though I suspect they would beat the crap out of us.
If you are worried about elves, you are in black, which sports some of the best removal for the pointy-eared wretches in Toxic Deluge and Perish. Even Engineered Plague. I think elves loses post-board. Plus, between wastes and sinkhole, they will have a hard time keeping a Cradle on the table, and that will really help us.
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