Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 165

Thread: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

  1. #41
    Member
    lavafrogg's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2005
    Location

    Phoenix, Arizona
    Posts

    1,329

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    I am going to say that even testing a 1cc spell against a chalice at 1 is shady and deserves a game warning. I know that it is a players own responsibility to ensure their own triggers are occuring but that is just moral gray area between cheating and playing to win. I would hope that everyone who plays this game has the morals to play by the rules and has fun doing so.
    "eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"

  2. #42
    Everybody's a jerk! You, me..........this jerk.
    Parcher's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    DuPont Circle
    Posts

    1,520

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Sad times indeed when I am the voice of reason. This is not a Bertoncini situation, where many incidents were documented by multiple players over years of play. We have one unconfirmed act, that it is still not 100% a cheating situation. With no coroboration, save for a few vague comments on being over competitive. Cheating is fucking serious in this game. And so are accusations of such. It is extremely unfair for anyone to catch that label without some significant proof.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGruber View Post
    Look, I will suck your dick. I will suck your fucking dick. I will do it, just join my team. Iíll suck your dick. You can fuck me or get fucked by me. You can watch me fuck something. Just point at something, Iíll fuck it for you. Just tell me what you want me to fuck!
    ~ Team Unicorn Motto

  3. #43
    Pray for Rain
    Tammit67's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2010
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA, USA
    Posts

    1,534

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    Sad times indeed when I am the voice of reason. This is not a Bertoncini situation, where many incidents were documented by multiple players over years of play. We have one unconfirmed act, that it is still not 100% a cheating situation. With no coroboration, save for a few vague comments on being over competitive. Cheating is fucking serious in this game. And so are accusations of such. It is extremely unfair for anyone to catch that label without some significant proof.
    Thanks Parcher, this needed to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713
    Stuff like this shouldn't be happening. The through process behind it is ...."if i can miss the trigger without my opponent catching on I can gain advantage. When he catches it theres no penalty for me.

    I feel like if there were harsher penalties people wouldn't be tempted to manipulate the rules.
    There are harsher penalties. Your example is textbook cheating:
    Quote Originally Posted by Infraction Procedure Guide
    4.8. Unsporting Conduct ó Cheating
    Penalty Disqualification

    Definition
    A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense
    committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it.

    Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:

    ē The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
    ē The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.


    If all criteria are not met, the offense is not Cheating and should be handled by a different infraction. Cheating will
    often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error, and must be investigated by the judge to
    make a determination of intent and awareness.
    Examples
    A. A player alters the results of a match after the match is over.
    B. A player lies to a tournament official about what happened in a game to make his case stronger.
    C. A player allows her opponent to put a creature into the graveyard even though the creature has not been
    dealt lethal damage.
    D. A player notices that his opponent resolved only half of the triggered ability of Sword of Feast and Famine
    and decides not to call attention to the error.
    E. A player peeks at another playerís picks during the draft.
    F. A player, after seeing his opponent mana weave and randomize insufficiently, pile shuffles to undo the
    weave instead of calling a judge.
    G. A player adds cards to his Sealed Deck pool.
    H. A player realizes he has accidentally drawn an extra card, then fails to call a judge in order to avoid a
    penalty.
    He is intentionally missing a trigger to gain an advantage from it, that is cheating plain and simple. He should just let the trigger resolve and just target you with the spell. An investigation should have occurred.

    A link to the rest of the IPG for the lazy: http://www.wizards.com/ContentResour...Guide_PDF1.pdf
    Matt Bevenour in real life

  4. #44
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2005
    Location

    I actually live in actual Chicago
    Posts

    679

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Pretty obviously cheating and if the same judge came back to the table I would expect a game loss. Allowing the Crop Rotation to resolve is just a wuss move from the judge.

  5. #45
    Everybody's a jerk! You, me..........this jerk.
    Parcher's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    DuPont Circle
    Posts

    1,520

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meekrab View Post
    Pretty obviously cheating and if the same judge came back to the table I would expect a game loss. Allowing the Crop Rotation to resolve is just a wuss move from the judge.
    Yeah, that it the part that threw me off. I have both played against, and watched Rudolph play. Would I call him over competitive? No. Would I believe he could have missed the trigger for Chalice on Brainstorm? Then made a joke about it to a judge? Sure. That seems right in line with what I have seen from him. But he is a very deliberate, some would say slow, player. And after missing the Brainstorm, his playing too quickly to allow a response on the Crop again seems not only fishy rules-wise, but out of character.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGruber View Post
    Look, I will suck your dick. I will suck your fucking dick. I will do it, just join my team. Iíll suck your dick. You can fuck me or get fucked by me. You can watch me fuck something. Just point at something, Iíll fuck it for you. Just tell me what you want me to fuck!
    ~ Team Unicorn Motto

  6. #46
    banned

    Join Date

    Jul 2013
    Location

    black metal bed room
    Posts

    2,188

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    That's very nebulous of course, so just examine the player's actions. You can't just 'speed' your way through a part of the game, that's asinine. Can you imagine how great combat would be? "I'm thinking abooooout... maaaaybe.... hmmmmmmmm. I miiight pass the tuuuuurn, or I miiiiiiiight...." opponent: "will you just GO alre-" you: "ZOMGATTACKYOUWITHEVERYTHING" *writes your new life total down* opponent "hey wtf man i'm not at 6 you didn't give me a chance to block" you: "well too bad, I already wrote it down"
    That's how small kids play Magic, don't you now?

  7. #47

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Of course game loss cause he intentionally didnt pass priority twice. Not so hard?

  8. #48
    Clergyman of Cool
    lordofthepit's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2009
    Location

    Daisy Hill Puppy Farm
    Posts

    1,954

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    That's how small kids play Magic, don't you now?
    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...0#post10496370

  9. #49
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2008
    Posts

    2,202

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    That's how small kids play Magic, don't you now?
    I still remember a time when Legacy was played by adults with jobs.
    Luck is a residue of design.



    I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
    http://soundcloud.com/vacrix


    Expect me or die. I play SI.

  10. #50
    Site Contributor
    Quasim0ff's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2013
    Posts

    1,433

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I still remember a time when Legacy was played by adults with jobs.
    We play vintage now


  11. #51
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,464

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quasim0ff View Post
    We play vintage now
    So the playerbase of Vintage died because of old age?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I still remember a time when Legacy was played by adults with jobs.
    Or bratty little kids with rich parents.

    Doesn't it come down in this and the other threat that judges are too soft?

    If rules were enforced accordingly more often instead of this wishy-washy comfort bullshit, than maybe cheating would be less rampant.

    The tournament rule change about missed triggers opened up an entire new can of worms. I'm expecting it to be altered sooner or later since it opens up alot of possibilities to cheat.

  12. #52
    Site Contributor
    Quasim0ff's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2013
    Posts

    1,433

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    So the playerbase of Vintage died because of old age?
    IDGI.

  13. #53
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2012
    Location

    Tienen
    Posts

    302

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    Sad times indeed when I am the voice of reason. This is not a Bertoncini situation, where many incidents were documented by multiple players over years of play. We have one unconfirmed act, that it is still not 100% a cheating situation. With no coroboration, save for a few vague comments on being over competitive. Cheating is fucking serious in this game. And so are accusations of such. It is extremely unfair for anyone to catch that label without some significant proof.
    Indeed. And on top of that, there was a judge present, a person, tested and verified for competent knowledge of the game, who decided that a simple sanction sufficed. There's no reason to second guess that judge, post an unverified tale of the event in question, and accuse that person, with his name mentioned, of cheating. The chances that this person is an active member of this forum are slim, it's likely that this person is being tarred and feathered atm without even knowing it. THAT is immoral behaviour.

  14. #54
    itsJulian.com - Legacy Videos
    Julian23's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Location

    Munich / Germany
    Posts

    3,141

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    The chances that this person is an active member of this forum are slim, it's likely that this person is being tarred and geathered atm without even knowing it. THAT is immoral behaviour.
    I thought it was pretty common knowledge that he goes by the handle of Rock Lee here.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  15. #55
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2012
    Location

    Tienen
    Posts

    302

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    I am going to say that even testing a 1cc spell against a chalice at 1 is shady and deserves a game warning. I know that it is a players own responsibility to ensure their own triggers are occuring but that is just moral gray area between cheating and playing to win. I would hope that everyone who plays this game has the morals to play by the rules and has fun doing so.
    Nonsense. There is absolutely no rule in the books against playing into a chalice or counterbalance. For all you know, this guy is filling up his graveyard for a tarmogoyf he intends to cast later. Or he could be building up storm. And even if there is absolutely no other rational explanation than that he speculates on the stupidity/forgetfulness/sloppy play of the opponent, that is absolutely okay in my book. This is no different from the famous 'fear for all legal targets' Profane Command play in that GP top 8 a few years ago. If you can only win the game when your opponent misplays, then speculate on the misplay. A chalice trigger is HIS responsability.

  16. #56
    Member

    Join Date

    Feb 2012
    Location

    Tienen
    Posts

    302

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    I thought it was pretty common knowledge that he goes by the handle of Rock Lee here.
    If that would be the case, the same effect could still have been achieved if the OP had mentioned 'this forum's Rock Lee' instead of the name.

  17. #57

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan View Post
    Nonsense. There is absolutely no rule in the books against playing into a chalice or counterbalance. For all you know, this guy is filling up his graveyard for a tarmogoyf he intends to cast later. Or he could be building up storm. And even if there is absolutely no other rational explanation than that he speculates on the stupidity/forgetfulness/sloppy play of the opponent, that is absolutely okay in my book. This is no different from the famous 'fear for all legal targets' Profane Command play in that GP top 8 a few years ago. If you can only win the game when your opponent misplays, then speculate on the misplay. A chalice trigger is HIS responsability.
    100% agreed, suggesting that intentionally playing into a Chalice is cheating is absurd.

  18. #58
    bruizar
    Guest

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by davelin View Post
    100% agreed, suggesting that intentionally playing into a Chalice is cheating is absurd.
    As a MUD / Workshop player I frequently dump my voltaic keys into my own chalice for 1 to get rid of cards so I can survive under the bridge (ensnaring bridge).

  19. #59

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    i can understand that but his violation was intentional and intentional violations of the rules should have stricter punishments IMO. I deserved a warning for failure to maintain game state but he defiantly deserved something stronger IMO.
    Intentional is up to the judges discretion, but consistently reporting GRVs helps build the case.

    This is why if everyone just calmly calls a judge on everything that merits a GRV (assuming competitive REL) these people will get weeded out eventually. If you are just a benign but awful player you'll quickly learn to adapt or you will stop wasting your $20-40 on entry until you do. It's (correct me if I'm wrong but I have some experience with it), GRV, GRV, Game Loss for each after. The judge has the discretion to determine whether missing the trigger was "beneficial".

    E.g. round 1 vintage champs I am fucking around with Tangle Wires and other crap and forget my Mana Crypt roll. As I move into my main phase I look at the dice and am pretty certain I missed the roll. A bystander confirms with me that I in fact missed the trigger. I call a judge on myself. It's an easy situation since the possibility of taking damage is clearly to my opponents benefit. The judge using his discretion determines I acted out of stupidity and not malice. My opponent confirms he'd like me to roll for it. I bolt myself and we move on.

    If in round 5 I was acting with malice and already had 2 GRVs I'd have to think long and hard about being a cheating piece of dog shit and trying to skip my crypt roll.

    There are scores of cheaters at SCGs, there are also scores of people who actually think they can take Wasteland with Vendillion Clique. It's not my job to determine intent. So I just call a judge every time. If I get a few intentional cheaters in the early rounds and discourage them from cheating later then great. If I'm just catching awful / nervous / new players in my wake then oh well. They'll be better off for it.

  20. #60
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: Cheating or clever use of the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Intentional is up to the judges discretion, but consistently reporting GRVs helps build the case.

    This is why if everyone just calmly calls a judge on everything that merits a GRV (assuming competitive REL) these people will get weeded out eventually. If you are just a benign but awful player you'll quickly learn to adapt or you will stop wasting your $20-40 on entry until you do. It's (correct me if I'm wrong but I have some experience with it), GRV, GRV, Game Loss for each after. The judge has the discretion to determine whether missing the trigger was "beneficial".

    E.g. round 1 vintage champs I am fucking around with Tangle Wires and other crap and forget my Mana Crypt roll. As I move into my main phase I look at the dice and am pretty certain I missed the roll. A bystander confirms with me that I in fact missed the trigger. I call a judge on myself. It's an easy situation since the possibility of taking damage is clearly to my opponents benefit. The judge using his discretion determines I acted out of stupidity and not malice. My opponent confirms he'd like me to roll for it. I bolt myself and we move on.

    If in round 5 I was acting with malice and already had 2 GRVs I'd have to think long and hard about being a cheating piece of dog shit and trying to skip my crypt roll.

    There are scores of cheaters at SCGs, there are also scores of people who actually think they can take Wasteland with Vendillion Clique. It's not my job to determine intent. So I just call a judge every time. If I get a few intentional cheaters in the early rounds and discourage them from cheating later then great. If I'm just catching awful / nervous / new players in my wake then oh well. They'll be better off for it.
    Agreed on the better players for it part. After I called myself for having a wish target in my main board at SCG it definitely taught me to go over my sideboard before a match begins. Bad players will either quit or improve after their mistakes cost them games enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)