Originally Posted by Togores
Couldn't agree more
Overdosed on confidence
What do we think about carpet of flowers once again in the sea of delvers?
It's *so* bad against Leovold I'm gunshy. If you can come up with a sideboard plan for Pile and such that leaves you with extra slots just for Delver, I suppose that might work. The card has always been insane vs Delver.
They play more creatures than we're going to board in answers. They also play more answers than we play threats. Getting into any sort of back and forth with Delver seems like a very bad place to be.
I liked him almost exclusively vs Miracles. I tested a ton vs Anuraag and was well over 50% postboard against him with a board plan that included Confidant. In that particular matchup the body was relevant too, because you could often get in for 2 several times and then minitendrils for lethal became much more viable. I've never liked him vs anything that can answer him with a card that is good otherwise (Liliana, Lightning Bolt), or anything that is going to make him unable to attack.
When I have him in the board I bring him in for the mirror, because that so often is a discard fest that devolves into topdecking that he's pretty good as a way to recover and flashback therapy for more discard, but I'd never include him in the board just for that.
I'll try Night's Whisper next time I sleeve this up. Oddly enough I've never actually tried it, even though I've been playing this for years. I should remedy that.
I actually don't think I would board in very much against that deck, I think xantid MIGHT be a good choice in that mu since the lists I've looked at have 5-6 cards in their board which would be better then their single target removal suite. I haven't had too much experience, but I find the standard plan has worked so far on mtgo. Just save your brainstorms to hide your business the best you can, and remember that a good line if rituals are in excess is to use one to beat out soft permissions (spell pierce) if required.
I've been a bit out of the loop recently, but got some games in today against solid control and other combo. Beat Charbelcher, but lost to Esper Mentor. Won a match against Grix Pyro (my first match against it in some time) today by the skin of my teeth (2–1), but it involved the opponent's making a major play error. (I guess I would've won G2 if I'd named Mindbreak Trap off a Therapy instead of Flusterstorm, but that's another story.) Maybe it's not relevant, but I feel like it's a similar matchup to Grix Delver and The Pile: lots of discard and countermagic backed up by an existential threat (Leo/PyroTherapy and/or more countermagic than you can shake a stick at).
I really don't know of any specific answers I would've wanted for the matchup. Xantid would've been good in at least one game, but I think he kept bolts in for game 2, so regardless, I don't know that it would've been good at all. Also, opposing discard was a muuuch bigger problem than countermagic in two of the three games. I've never really liked Carpet because it only ever seems to bait out a piece of countermagic, then the opponent just draws into five more counters as the game goes on. Today iirc I 'boarded out Mox, Rain, a Preordain, and Ad Nauseam for Badlands, Empty, Tendrils #2, and Cabal Therapy #4. I didn't get a lot of mileage out of them, but a lot of that had to do with my not drawing the sideboard cards. There were at least two instances in which a Cabal Therapy would've won the game on the spot, but I couldn't find one.
Also, Togores is right about Dark Confidant. Maybe a case could've been made for it in the Miracles era, but it doesn't do anything for at least a turn, it bleeds us without giving the ability to just go whole-hog and draw 15 cards, and it's about the worst top-deck there is. I've not tried Night's Whisper because I've never felt the need, but I would definitely give it a shot over Bob. Dudes just don't seem to do much for me in this deck.
What are your guys opinions on the Control4daze (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16829&d=304114&f=LE) vs Surfinbird19 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16769&d=303708&f=LE) lists? Is bayou worth it? Isn't ad naus scary to run with 2 petitions? Also, is grixis ANT still an option? I know TES is sticking with it.
I like Bayou for having BB available with Usea. I don't play any DP but I think it's known as Surfinbird shows that it can be successful with AdN. Ground Seal is obviously good with PIF and stops DRS, snapcaster, SE, etc. seems good (playing Extirpate is more fun). I don't understand Sylvan Library. Maybe add Mirri's Guile and play a Serra SanctumAlso, I had a miracles opponent bring in multiple wear/tear targeting my LEDs. I assume he boarded them for Ground Seal.
But whatabout 1 trop over 1 bayou? not good or?I like Bayou for having BB available with Usea. I don't play any DP but I think it's known as Surfinbird shows that it can be successful with AdN. Ground Seal is obviously good with PIF and stops DRS, snapcaster, SE, etc. seems good (playing Extirpate is more fun). I don't understand Sylvan Library. Maybe add Mirri's Guile and play a Serra Sanctum
I thought you meant both. Usually Trop is played first and if you have more green than a few AD you might want an additional source so that's the reason for Bayou (plus others like I mentioned). Lots of builds use the 14/15th land spot differently and some play additional in the SB. Really depends on the other cards on the deck and playstyle. If it's budget then... Otherwise just experiment.
Maindeck is pretty stock. His 15 are weird though: he's running a manabase with tarn and double red source, but he's still playing decays, so he has to do it with the sole aid of
tropical island. More importantly, I wouldn't even consider leaving home without a mass removal in my sideboard, be it massacre or pyroclasm
Bayou will be worth it, depending on how heavy a green splash you want to add. I wouldn't bother in Brandon Osborne's list, it looks like the only time you'll be bringing in lots of green you're unlikely to be hit by wasteland, SurfinBird's list is fairly deep on green comparatively and more likely to need access to green against wasteland decks. Petition is a funny one with Ad Nauseam. It can lead to awful feel-bads when you just hit all your business, back to back, but also can give you a tutor that doesn't need an LED to keep the kill going. As for Grixis, try it yourself. There's plenty who still love it and like the extra basic.
For Sylvan library, I can imagine this is of use against slower control decks, as well as some chalice decks (Has value against 4c, miracles, stoneblade, I can even see a case being made against Loam and Lands)
This, agreed 100%. My first thought when I reveal DP is always an F-word, but then most of the times I look at what I revealed and I can see a line that wins anyway. Dark Petition's effect is just so much stronger under the right conditions, especially because you often burn a LED or two in the process of casting Ad Nauseam, making Infernal Tutors worse. Overall, i would dare saying that DP has a decent synergy with AN, despite costing 5.
Just chiming in to give another +1 to both Dark Petition feeling bad off of AdN, but ultimately being good, and for enjoying a straight grixis list that omits green (I think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, but I know I've had less trouble with stranded Decays trying to get hellbent and fewer draws where my island [trop instead of basic] is wastelandable).
I'm playing straight Grix right now because outside of the Miracles matchup and the occasional Leovold, I never really wanted Abrupt Decay for anything and found it to be extremely hard to cast without burning fast mana or leaving a huge door open for Wasteland. It felt like there were better cards I could be running to deal with each of the threats for which I was running it (the possible exception being Leo), so I cut it and haven't found myself missing it.
I haven't run other green cards in over a year, and I don't miss them—Carpet of Flowers least of all. I've said it before, but the only time I won a game off of Xantid Swarm, I got supremely lucky by, like, quad-cantripping into a kill the same turn the Swarm ate a Force. If your opponent has countermagic, Xantid Swarm does nothing; if your opponent doesn't have countermagic, Xantid Swarm does nothing.
Regarding the two lists you posted, I ran double-Petition for a long time, but I slowly came around to running a list more like Togores's or Control4daze's (only with 14 lands in the main; I hate that the optimal number for this deck is 14.5). I think they're both great, and that double-Petition actually isn't too bad with Ad Nauseam in the main. I think the major strength of double-PiF continues to be its resilience against countermagic and discards, which, in concert, seem to be taking over the format right now in Grix Delver.
[EDIT: double-Petition is extremely fast.]
I wouldn't ever, ever, ever bring back Dark Petition plus double-PiF plus Ad Nauseam. At Worcester two years ago, I think [EDIT: I don't remember for sure, but it was pretty much this bad] I died off of terrible AdNs three times in four consecutive games. Not quite sure why it's such a problem, but I suspect it's that when running that much business with AdN, the high-costed doubles need to either be Tutors or Tendrils; if they're not, it's much more difficult to attain critical mass and we bleed out really quickly without finding anything that works. Losing half your life and getting three usable cards out of it is literally worse than Infernal Contract.
This is an interesting point that I have been dealing with a lot lately.
I have often found that with 15 lands, I seem to get land flooded a lot, and/or draw lands at the least opportune times. However, going down to 14 I find that I seem to mulligan a lot more often (approximately 33% of the time by my last count).
Just curious what veteran stormers' experiences have been with this. For example, have any of the more mathematically / statistically minded of us done any calculations on what the no land (or land flood) mulligan percentage of 14 vs 15 lands are?
Placed 5th at EE7 this past weekend 9/16/17
Decklist:
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Dark Petition
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Preordain
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
SB:
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
2 Fatal Push
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
Matches:
R1 U/B Landstill 2-1
R2 Enchantress 2-1
R3 Big Red 2-1
R4 Death & Taxes 2-0
R5 Grixis Delver 2-0
R6 Grixis Delver 2-1
R7 Grixis Delver 2-1
R8 ID
R9 ID
Top 8:
R1 Turbo Depths 0-2 (Mull to 5 G1 due to no lands, G2 draw too many lands)
Great result, congratulate!
Your partial into matches is great and the Turbo Depth "report" is clear...pity that
Just a question about your fetchlands: needs Bloodstained Mire in no situations? VS Waste / Moon the self-confidence to fetch for Swamp it was not important?
Congrats Hrothgar, pretty sweet run!
Did anyone play in MKM Hamburg this past weekend? I read there was about 300 player and Sneak and Show won... Also, a lot of Leo decks.
I ended 7-2 in Hamburg ending 17th where the Ranking points (And what Im copeting for) where only for top 16.
Somehow all my opponents lost in last round :/
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