Misdirecting Hymn to tourach is one of the most satisfying things you can do in Legacy (behind bouncing a swords onto a TNN) but, I often just find myself wishing it was a FoW instead and the match-ups that I want to bring it in against are often ones where I would side out FoW anyway (YMMV).
The first LL would almost certainly be targetting my opponents in my meta so 2/2 might be a better split. You're probably correct with the GY hate although I miss having the 'I win' button against dredge/re-animator that Leyline can provide. Opposition might be over-performing because people just aren't ready for it but, I think it's worth testing further as it's another angle for opponents to try and deal with while they have the threat of the combo still hanging over them.
Opposition feels like a weak win-more card. If you got a board, why not just attack and win? Just like food chain it's dead on an empty board. I wouldnt want more than 4 of those cards. Since our deck is so clunky already I would want as many cheap effective cards as possible for the fast decks. The midrange battle, where'd we wanna play 4 cmc enchantments, is already favored.
LL seems good though and misdirection can be good in the right meta and specially if you run the full playset of griffins.
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I assume most of us play in regular groups where your choice of deck can probably be guessed in advance? It's good to throw some spice into the mix occasionally and see what happens... sometimes it just throws people off a little and sometimes you find something worth keeping. I'm not suggesting that Opposition is new tech that everyone should run, simply that it's worked out well for me in games where i've managed to resolve it.Originally Posted by JackaBo
After two weeks hiatus I'm back playing in the local league , going 3-1 last night. We were whooping 46 people which is in the realms of the Stockholm Moderns League attendance.
I'm back to my old snapcaster list, and I'm very happy with that, he won me one game and was valueable in others.
The list:
19 creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman, Baleful Strix
3 Mistollow Griffin
2 Snapcaster mage, Vendillon clique, Fierce Empath
1 Gurmag angler, Emrakul the eons thorne
23: Spells:
4 Food chain, Brainstorm, Force of will
3 Abrupt decay, Ponder, Manipulate fate
2 Thoughtseize
18 Lands:
4 Verdant catacombs, Polluted delta
3 Underground sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou, Swamp, Forest, Island
15 Sideboard:
For combo: 3
Duress, 2x Flusterstorm
For creature decks:5
Toxic deluge, Murderous Cut, Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict, Umezawas Jitte
For grave decks: 3
Grafdiggers Cage, 2x Surgical Extraction
Miscellaneous: 4
Pithing Needle, Null rod, Sylvan Library, Golgari charm,
Match 1 versus Miracle 2-1
I'm happy to recognize this opponent being on Miracle (and also currently in the lead in our League). Miracle hasn't been big in our LGS, and last season I only faced it once. This deck is a miracle killer so I was even more happy to see five players playing miracle-esque decks this evening.
Game 1: I have a great hand with thoughtseize, fow+ Griffin and a food chain. I thoughtseize seeing counterbalance and clique plus lands. I take the clique, and feel very much in command of the game. A few turns later i get the Griffins going and he scoops.
I board into deluge and engineered plague, thinking he might side into mentors. I also bring in null rod and library. Out comes the full playset of strixes.
Game 2: I keep a hand with DRS and Decay which feels safe. DRS get the plow and he lands a T4 Jace which I cannot preasure. he runs away with the game and I en d upp loosing with 3 decay in hand and no targets.
I board out deluge (for a needle for jace) but forgets about plague.
game 3: Again i get a hand with thoughtseize fow + Griffin and all the combo pieces. I take (again) a clique with thoughtseize and sees Fow and flusterstorm. On my turn 3 I play food chain when he's tapped out. He FoWs pitching Flsuterstorm and I know he's out of answers. I Fow back pitching Griffin and proceeds to go off.
Conclusion: Thoughtseize is so good. Takes a card + gives valueable info!
Match 2 versus MUD 1-2
Game 1: I know this guy is usually on Nic Fit so I keep a one lander, but with ponder and Thougthseize. I take a risk and fetches a uSea to cast thoughtseize for ponder next turn. I see he's on MUD and takes the Metalworker. He has kuldotha and Spine of Ish sah. I find my second thoguthseize and takes the Forgemaster as well. Then I bait the Spine with DRS Before I land Food chain and wins from there.
I board into Null rod, Murderous cut and Edict, taking out 2x Cliques and a ponder (I usually take one out versus chalice decks).
Game 2: he lands an early lodestone and I stare in disbelief at my Decays in hand. I get Food chain on-line but he cleans up with Ugin and I scoop.
Game 3: This game he develops a fast board with a revoker on my Shaman. I play ponder seing my whole combo and gets ready to go off next turn. However I miscalcuates my mana, counting the revokered shaman as a source and put the land which would have won me the game too far down. This gives him an extra turn to activate Forgemarster into Sundering titan for the win. Had he searched for Blightsteel or anything else I would have won.
Conclusion: Again thoguhtseize was great. Need to ponder more when playing ponders.
Match 3 versus Goblins, with Thalia 2-1
We played a casual game before the event so I know what he's on and that he's seeking revenge! When I draw my hand I see that I forgot to board out after last match, and has a null rod in hand. Since he plays Vials I guess it's not aweful and knowing there's some extra removals in the deck feels good. Btw, does anyone know what's the correct thing to do in this situation?
Game 1: I die to an unanswered Piledriver with only blue blockers.
I have a great sideboard with cut, deluge, golgari charm and jitte. I board out the vendillon cliques and the thoughtseizes.
Game 2: T1 DRS, T2 Food chain T3 Emrakul!
Game 3: This one is close. We both build a board but he's shipping away with a Piledriver each turn. I get the half-combo going but he's close to a alphastrike, amassing enough goblins to boost his piledriver. Then i draw golgari charm and kills like 3 goblins, delaying his alpha strike and puts him at a one turn clock. Then he lands Krenko and it's hasty because of that goblin lord-guy. Luckily snapcaster saves my butt, flashing back golgari charm before his attack.
Conclusion: Snapcaster is so good after board.
Match 4 versus eldrazi: 2-1
I have faced this player before: He's the best of the "eldrazi players" and we're usually pretty even, but last time he won 2-1 even when mulling to five in our final match.
Game 1: I keep a one-land DRs + ponder hand thinking I'm on the play, then realize I'm not and he plays chalice on one. Luckily his hand is slowish and I get to draw another land allowing me to play. I keep off his threats by flashing in snap to block mimmic and FoW:ing a TKS. Eventually I find food chain plus Griffins who takes the game.
i sideboard out thoughtseize, vendillon clique and 1 ponder for my whole anti-creature package of five cards. I like thoughtseize vs eldrazi but not on the draw.
Game 2: I keep a combo hand, but he has an agreesive hand. After I have established Food chain plus Griffin for the win he plays All is Dust and I'm dead.
Game 3: I mull to six and he to five. I keep a hand with doubble strix and a decay, which feels nice. He has a heavy tomb hand which inflicts a lot of damage on him. First strix trades with Mimmic, second with Smasher. Even thought he's putting on all the preasure we're even in life thanks to several tomb activations. Then i natually draw all my three Griffins and play them one by one while he's out of gas.
Conclusion: I've been siding out FoW versus Eldrazi because of Cavern of Souls, but I'm pretty sure they are worth keeping in.
I'm happy with both maindeck and sideboard for now. My Vendillon cliques came out almost every game, but on the other hand they are only in the deck to disrupt combo, disrupt miracle and preasure planeswalkers which wasn't necessary in 3/4 games.
With the general rise of Death n taxes and the local rise of Miracle I might consider another Null Rod.
I'm happy for feedback on both deck and sideboarding strategies.
Last edited by JackaBo; 10-16-2016 at 10:33 AM.
When you present your deck to your opponent in G1 it has to be exactly like the 60 cards listed in your main, otherwise you get a game loss. This may vary based on REL but happens even if you had no ill intentions (ie: you forgot to side out the previous match).
If you are aware of this infraction (and don't call the judge) or are doing it on puprose you are disqualified from the tournament because it's cheating.
I think you didn't know how the Tournament Rules work, but you should have figured out that playing with the right side in G1 is a clear advantage and should have called the judge: otherwise what would be the difference between you and a cheater who willingly use side cards in G1?
Ignorance is strength
This seems reasonable but the thing is there is no deck list for these events. Not sure if that matters though.
It's quite funny because me and my opponent discussed the situation. My thought was that I was at a disdvantage with cards for another match-up and that taking them out and drawing new cards would be a free mulligan. I'll be sure to call for a judge next time instead.
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Went 1-3 in a tourney today before dropping.
Beat Shardless (2-0)
Lost to Reanimator, Eldrazi, and SneakFit (all 1-2)
My list is the same one posted a few comments back - Shardless agents and a 2-2 split of Lost legacy and Manipulate fate are the only real deviation from the norm if you can't be bothered scrolling up
Reanimator - G1 They open with a Delta fetching a Usea into Ponder. I put them on Delver or Tinfins. I play out a deathrite while they durdle. I therapy them to see Entomb, BigG, reanimate, Iona, and a thoughtseize... I now realize i'm up against a proper reanimator deck and, as I have no meaningful interaction, concede to hide the food chain in my hand. G2 They get a T2 Blazing Archon of all things into playI take a few beats but eventually get my own combo online and soon the board is deadlocked with Griffins, Emrakul, Ashen rider, and some strixi. Lost Legacy takes out his FoW and Griselbrands meaning my opponent will have to get through a scavenging ooze, a grafdigger's cage and my own FoW's if he wants to win ( his library is much smaller than mine). At this point we were almost at time and I concede 1-2 in the interests of sportsmanship and sanity. My opponent tells me afterwards that he'd put me on shardless when side-boarding and wouldn't have sided in the damned Archon if he'd know I was running FoodChain.
Eldrazi - G1 I Combo out pretty quickly. G2 I get stuck under an early chalice but manage to decay it a few turns later. I get the food chain and a single griffin online but draw dead for 5 turns while being punched in the face by successively larger Eldrazi beasties. G3 follows a similar pattern where drawing into 3 lands in a row after getting Food Chain down (with an Emrakul in hand) leaves me needing to topdeck a griffin/MF/LL to win.... naturally, I draw a fetch.
SneakFit - G1 Lost Legacy takes care of his Sneak attacks on T2 but it matters not as he tops into threat after threat with an Inferno Titan eventually causing me to scoop after a toxic deluge wipes my board. G2 - I combo out T3. G3 I therapy T1 naming top and see a hand of high end creatures and not much else, 3 turns later he has top, phyrexian tower, a million lands, woodland bellower... I have an explosive turn where I manage to get the chain online, Clique my opponent, flood the board with griffins, brainstorm, and shardless into another brainstorm but all my extra draws give me is land. My opponent casts his Inferno titan and it's game over.
Sometimes the cards hate you :(
I don't think I did myself any favours with the way I built the deck though. I was expecting a mostly unfair meta and saw the exact opposite! Lost Legacy was pretty sweet and I think it has a place in this deck as a one-of; being able to exile the griffins or snipe an opponents win-con/hate is fantastic... the 2/2 split with MF is probably not worth it though as it makes fetching against wasteland decks very troublesome. I should have left the Shardless Agents behind... all I was ever hoping they would do was to cascade into Brainstorm to help me dig out the missing parts of my combo... I might as well have run 3 ponders instead!
I'm thinking that the deck should be built to get the combo as fast as possible with the griffins as a back up plan. I know that's contrary to how this thread has tended over the past few months but I honestly get better results when I build the deck that way round. Every game I lost today (with the exception of that damned Blazing Archon) I lost because I ran out of gas and I simply cannot see a more efficient way of fixing this than to run more cantrips and maybe go down to 19 lands.
Food Chain, as it stands, is not going to be a Tier1 (or even Tier1.5) deck and i'm cool with that... i want to have fun playing this game and constantly running out of things to do because i've tried to make the deck more efficient at winning through it's secondary plan is not doing it for me. I know that S&T does the whole 'Put a big thing into play and win' plan better than us but Food Chain has a charm all of it's own and I will contimue to play it.. albeit a more combo focused version than I am currently.
I'm curious to hear how the fast-combo adevnture goes! I'm sure there are many unexplored ways to configure this deck. I actually think Food chain is Tier 1,5 material - Alluren are showing results now that many people play it and I believe Food Chain is as strong as Alluren. The meta right now are favorable. Miracles is a good MU, Lands is a good MU. Eldrazi and Death and taxes are absolutely winable - we're neither dead to Chalice nor Thalia.
I'm sticking to my list posted a few posts above and I was rewarded with a 4-0 today!
Match 1 versus UG Food chain. First game I combo off, second game he combo off, third game I control the board with a jitte. UG food chain... so much worse than BUG.
Match 2 versus HelmLine. Game 1 decay a bridge and win with clique + griffin beatdown. Game 2 he goes off rather fast. G3 I get to combo off.
Match 3 versus Reanimator. Last time this guy was on Elves so I keep a hand I should have shipped. G1 he reanimates Iona pretty fast but he names green! That means I still get to play. I manage to crawl back into the game via Angler and Strix but he reanimates Griselbrand and wins. G2 and G3 I board out decay plus some combo pieces and play the control game successfully. I eventually win G3 putting emrakul into play on his show'n'tell. Living the dream :D
Match 4 versus Eldrazi. G1 is very close, he beats me down to like 4 life. I get some life via shaman and stabilizes with griffins and eventually Empath into Emmy. G2 I keep a questionable hand and looses to T1 chalice, T2 Knot, T3 Endbringer. G3 I goes like this: T1 do nothing, T2 MF, T3 Food chain (which I topdecks after his Knot!). T4 draws a land into 3 griffins. T5 topdeck Empath.
The deck feels great. Sure the Snapcasters are debatable but they are never totally dead cards, and they really shine after board. I think I might try a lost legacy in the board, maybe instead of the Duress.
Judging by the lists in the last couple pages of this thread, no one plays Tidespout Tyrant these days. Why? Honestly, I've never played Emrakul in my lists as it seems too clunky for me.
If I were to compare those two finishers:
Tidespout
+ deals with any problematic permanent, wipes the board with infinite griffins
+ can reset your own creatures for value
+ pitchable to FoW
+ can be cast off a single Gurmag/Tasigur or with Carpet of Flowers on the board
+ gives an edge in Show&Tell matches
-- dies to red blasts and stp
-- gives little benefit if the combo is disrupted in the middle
Emrakul
+ gives an extra turn (since we always cast it, less problems with Karakas)
+ is protected from removal
+ stops painter's mill plan (unless he has crypt to respond to trigger)
-- is essentially a blank without chain and enough fodder
-- can be potentially blocked (no certain kill next turn)
I am considering taking the deck to a yearly 100-man tournament in 2 weeks since it's the deck I've played the most in the past year, but I'm still not quite sure.
I've always preferred Tyrant. I sometimes have put Emrakul in my board since he is technically better against combo decks but I'd rather a lock creature like Void Winnower. Unfortunately, Winnower misses too many relevant cards (Show and Tell, Ad Nauseum, Glimpse of Nature, GSZ). There are a couple lock creatures like that (Nullstone Gargoyle), but I can't think of one that just ends the game as dramatically as Emrakul.
Not sure if there's much to debate. Both kind of ends the game with the combo. There are some fringe cases where one card is better than the other. Other card-choices have larger impact.
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Played this at EW yesterday:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Misthollow Griffin
2 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Matches were:
- Miracles (Lose, I totally threw game 2 after winning game 1)
- Storm (Win, Null Rod = not fair)
- UR Control Delver (Lose, never really did much, not sure what happened)
- Storm (Win, See match 2)
- Belcher (Lose, durdled hard game 2 and couldn't find anything besides lands)
- Elves (Win, felt somewhat easy but opponent mulled to 4 in game 2)
- Painter (Win, I had infinite time game 2 and 3 essentially to assemble Tyrant)
- Opponent Conceded (He had some sweet looking food to eat)
- Belcher (Lose, game 3 came down to the last turn, he had to go for a Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils line to win and I had to draw 0 Force and 0 Flusterstorm, statistically against the odds for him but what happens happens)
Thoughts:
Agent underperformed hard for me. It was okay to meh last time I played this deck but this time it felt irrelevant.
I feel like I needed Emrakul for Belcher. At bigger events, I'll probably have to bite the bullet and include her.
After talking with my group, I'm going to try this configuration next chance I get:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Misthollow Griffin
2 Tidespout Tyrant
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Trying to determine if I should and how I would fit a Karakas in the maindeck. Also not sure if Leovold was actually good. He felt good (I won almost every game I played him AND he drew 12 cards against Storm) but I'm not sure he actually did anything.
After a week of test vs Eldrazi, Miracle and BG Dephts (worst matchup ever maybe), i have realize who Ponder is required to give at the deck the right shuffle effect needed.
Now i play with:
- 19 Lands (8 Fetchlands)
- 4 Brainstorm
- 4 Ponder
- 3 Manipulate Fate (and 3 Misthollow Griffin, not 4)
This combination of cantrip give me a good consistency and a good way to find combo pieces.
I've been running between 2-4 ponder and I've settled for 3. I usually side out 1-2 ponder versus chalice-decks cause I want more action and less durdle.
I went 3-1 today.
M1 loosing 0-2 versus Esper Mentor with CB. Game 1 I mulled to 4 before I saw a land.
M2 Won 2-1 versus miracle. G2 i loose because of a 1 lander greedy keep.
M3 Won 2-1 versus 4color fish with spellqueller who win his first game.
M4 Won 2-1 versus the new sneakFit deck.
Most memorable play: M4G3 i have griffin with jitte online and lots of lands (thanks explorer). He thoughtseizes me and takes golgari charm then lands sneak attack. I have empath in hand but doesnt draw chain. Next turn he plays fierce empath - that's my card, right? - then sneaks emrakul. I use jitte to clear his dorks and in beginning of attack i play edict. He shuffles GY into deck then GSZ for empath fetching emmy again and passes the turn. I topdeck snapcaster like a pro and flashbacks golgari charm to win the game.
That deck is very similar to ours. GSZ is a great card, I wish we could play it. But I'm glad we're on blue: cantrips finding our pieces and SB-cards, snappy to recur them and of course fow.
I also played five matches versus shardless agent before the league. Won 4-1. This deck is so much fun and I keep getting better and better results. I'm at 12th place in my league so currently qualified for the finals.
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Last edited by JackaBo; 11-03-2016 at 06:55 AM.
You all need serum powder in your life
Propose a list and one of us will probably test it.
If I were to play 4 Griffins I would play a misdirection, unless your meta is totally wrong for it. Pitching Griffins is the best feeling in the World and 2 for 1 using 0 mana is freaking awesome. Hymn, decay and ancestral visions are the most prominent targets but bolt, thoughtseize, StP and wear/tear is cool too. I also think you should consider the Empath + Angler package since it's awesome.
I tried Leo one time and he did perform, but not as much as I was hoping for (he took the snapcaster-slot for me, and snapcaster has won me games).
I also question echoing truthin the sidebaord... When you wanna combo, sure it removes hate cards. But this is also a grind-deck and bounce effects is too temporary in the long game IMO. I get that you dont wanna run Decay in main, but why not in the board?
Misdirection isn't that amazing right now. Between Shardless not being that big and the fact that we consistently beat Shardless, there isn't much else that's worth catching. My meta is also usually Elves, DnT, Miracles, Delver.
I haven't been a big fan of Empath + Angler. Feels too greedy to me. I can try it again but I'd be cutting clique for it and I'm not sure that'll solve the issues I'm having.
I'm playing 2 Decay. Truth only comes in against very specific decks. A lot of games I played over the weekend, Truth allowed me to open up my board and go off. There are bunch of match ups where you can sit and wait. Decay also isn't castable under Moon for me. I don't want to play the basic Swamp tbh.
So I started playing Legacy last month, my list has fluctuated a bit, originally had a white splash for enlightened tutor which I dropped in favor of just running the 4x Food Chain. Some good MUs for me, a lot of grindy/midrange decks that I feel good against most of the time. I keep getting paired up with an aggro loam player that has almost no meaningful interaction with me.
list:
//Creatures
4x Baleful Strix
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Fierce Empath
1x Genesis Hydra
4x Misthollow Griffin
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Scavenging Ooze
//Spells
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
3x Manipulate Fate
4x Food Chain
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
1x Sylvan Library
//Lands
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Underground Sea
1x Swamp
1x Forest
2x Island
Sideboard:
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Misdirection
3x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Overall I haven't done better than 2-2 but I feel like some of that is my play. After this last FNM I realized I had boarded out my 1x noble hierarch in every matchup and I rarely needed the extra mana dork. I moved my scavenging ooze to the mainboard since he's another body and helps to eat/recycle my griffins after they chump block.
So, I have four cards I thought might work in that spot
Scavenging Ooze
- Shrinks goyfs
- Recycles my griffins.
Mulldrifter
- Best case it's a 3 mana ritual that draws me 2 cards
- Middle case it's a 3 mana draw 2 spell
- Worst case I die because I have a 5 mana spell stuck in my hand
Eternal Scourge
- One more food chain enabler
- Doesn't really do much other than make the combo a little more consistent
Finally, a probably bad spice idea someone had for me:
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
- I can chump with griffins, exile and recast them during my opponents turn
- Meta has three shardless players, this is pretty good against them
- Clears the coast my combo if I'm ready to go off.
- The downside is that it's a 3/4 for 5 mana (with triple blue) which seems pretty bad
Others have already suggested Angler/Tasigur in that spot as well.
Go for angler or scooze IMO.
I went 2-2 today.
M1 facing burn. Lost 0-2. This match up is so bad. Boarded in 1 jitte, 2 flusterstorm, 1 duress and out with 2 thoughtseize and 2 Strix. How do you guys board? Have you dedicated burn-slots? I'm considering chill.
M2 versus 4c delver with snappy TNN and Angler. Won 2-1. Boarded in deluge, murderous cut and golgari charm. Out with 2 thoughtseize, 1 fow. Match up feels good if you hit your landdrops.
M3 versus death n taxes featuring new thalia. Lost g1 due to not fetching basics and he drawing wastelands.
Boarded in deluge, golgari charm, jitte, murderous cut, null rod and needle. Out with 2 fow, 2 cliques, 2 Strix.
Im iffy bout the SB-ing here. He played great and deserved the win. SofaI is also awesome versus this deck.
Game 4 versus UW stoneblade. 2-0. Easy peazy.
Same list as posted before
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