Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: W/B Helm Leyline

  1. #1
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    W/B Helm Leyline

    Maindeck
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Rest in Peace

    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Dark Confidant

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Duress
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Pithing Needle

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lotus Petal

    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Scrubland
    4 Swamp
    2 Plains
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Humility
    1 Circle of Protection: Blue
    1 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Aura of Silence
    1 Serenity
    1 Trinisphere
    4 Sadistic Sacrament
    4 Liliana of the Veil

    Other Cards in Consideration
    Moat
    Chrome Mox
    Cabal Therapy
    Hymn to Tourach

    Ancient Tomb
    City of Traitors
    Chalice of the Void

    Grafted Skullcap
    Phyrexian Arena
    Gravestorm

    Stoneforge Mystic
    Bitterblossom
    Phyrexian Totem

    Ethersworn Canonist

    Gameplan for the Deck
    The goal is to play Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace followed by Helm of Obedience and then activate the Helm for . This decks the opponent even if they have Eldrazi, Blightsteel Colossus, or Progenitus. In my opinion, this is the most efficient and resilient compact combo available in legacy. The other contenders are Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths and Painter's Servant + Grindstone, which are easier to cast, but both of those combos are vulnerable to creature removal, which is often run in the maindeck of opposing decks. This combo dodges all creature removal spells, and it is able to cause a lot of collateral damage even if you only resolve Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace to buy you time.

    If you can't use Enlightened Tutor and the fast mana to assemble the combo and win instantly, then you can search for something that will cripple your opponent or setup the Confidant + Top combo to get card advantage and use discard spells to keep your opponent under control.

    Why You Should Play this Deck
    The shell of the deck is modeled after the vintage deck "Dark Times", which uses a variety of compact combos including Leyline/Helm, Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths, and Strip Mine/Crucible of Worlds. It is a Null Rod deck which uses the powerful black vintage tutors, fast mana, and Dark Confidant to assemble a compact combo and win as fast as possible. In legacy, we can substitute Enlightened Tutor for the more powerful black vintage tutors, Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox + Dark Ritual for the fast mana, and we can still use Dark Confidant + Sensei's Divining Top to get card advantage.

    This deck is built to abuse Enlightened Tutor. Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor are both banned in legacy, so Enlightened Tutor is the next best thing that we have available. There is a huge variety of artifact/enchantment silver bullets at competitive power levels like Oblivion Ring and Pithing Needle, and both parts of the Helm/Leyline combo can be searched for with Enlightened Tutor in addition to Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox and Sensei's Divining Top/Phyrexian Arena, so it really is effectively a Vampiric Tutor in this deck.

    Deck Development
    So far, I have only played the deck once at a local tournament. I went 2-2 beating Tin Fins and MUD, but losing to RUG Delver and Goblins. I did go to 3 games against Delver, and I felt like the match could have gone either way. Goblins, on the other hand, did a number against me despite resolving an Engineered Plague.

    I added Moat to the list of cards under consideration because it would be amazing in certain matchups. I still like Humility though because it slows down those pesky fliers like Delver of Secrets, Emrakul, and Griselbrand.

    I think that Circle of Protection: Blue would be amazing against Delver and True-Name Nemesis, and it works great in conjunction with the graveyard hate which shuts down Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Grim Lavamancer. Between those two cards, you shut down most of the troublesome creatures in legacy.

    I also think that Chrome Mox should replace Lotus Petal because there is a huge potential to have dead cards in your hand. Extra copies of Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void could be exiled for Chrome Mox.

    I'm not sure about running 8 discard spells in the main. Some of them could be replaced with silver bullets from the sideboard or more versatile cards like Liliana or Hymn to Tourarch.

    Please let me know if you have any ideas about how to develop the deck. I will continue to post my tournament reports as I work on the deck. For next week, I will try replacing Lotus Petal with Chrome Mox. I'm also skeptical about Sadistic Sacrament in the sideboard when we could just use Ethersworn Canonist or other tutorable answers to combo.

  2. #2

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    You're missing Wheel of Sun and Moon.

  3. #3

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I think I'd rather play Dark Depths combo in this type of deck.

    Vampire Hexmage is more useful in general on its own than say, Helm of Obedience.

    And with Urborg, Dark Depths is another land drop.

  4. #4
    Storm Trooper
    JanoschEausH's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2012
    Location

    Bremen, Germany
    Posts

    264

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    You have linke one out against PNeedle or Revoker on Helm. DnT must be unwinnable.

  5. #5
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't really add anything. If you use helm, it just causes a draw because the cards keep cycling through the library. Between leyline and rip, we have plenty of ways to deny their graveyard already.

    Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage is a tempting combo. I decided to not use it because the Marit Lage token is vulnerable to creature removal like swords and edicts. Dark Depths is a liability against Wasteland, and it does actually nothing on it's own without Urborg, which is yet another card you have to find. While helm is useless on it's own as well, I think that the collateral damage from leyline/rip is actually better than the extra utility of hexmage. If you want to use the hexmage's ability on something else, you have to sacrifice the hexmage, whereas the leyline does everything while staying on the battlefield. The hexmage is also vulnerable to creature removal, so you don't really get a lot of benefit from casting it as a blocker on the turns before you can combo off.

    I have more than one out against needle/revoker. There's only one Oblivion Ring, but I have the 4 Enlightened Tutors to find it, so it's more like 5 outs plus Sensei's Divining Top. I can also use Duress/Thoughtseize to eliminate those threats preemptively. To be fair, I haven't played against DnT yet, so it remains to be seen.



    I just finished another weekly local event. I played the same list with the following modifications:
    -4 Dark Confidant
    4 Liliana of the Veil
    -4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox

    Dark Confidant works great with Sensei's Divining Top, and it's your only source of card advantage. However, most decks use some creature removal in the main, which is always going to hit confidant as it's your only creature. Replacing confidant with Liliana means that you're creatureless, and it's also a bigger threat on it's own. On the other hand, Liliana can't actually win the game for you, so if you're unable to win with helm, then you have no other routes to victory.

    Chrome Mox seems like a free upgrade over Lotus Petal because you have so many potentially dead cards. Dark Ritual and extra copies of Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace are great to pitch to a Chrome Mox. However, you don't necessarily need the consistent mana from Chrome Mox. Usually you only need the extra mana for a single turn such as when you're casting the helm. In those cases, Lotus Petal would be better. Chrome Mox really shines though when you can cast a turn 1 Rest in Peace, turn 2 disruption spell or Sensei's Divining Top, and a turn 3 helm.

    Here's my mini report for the local:
    Round 1: Punishing Jund
    The match was quite fair. Bloodbraid Elf + Lightning Bolt provides a fast clock against us. The collateral damage from Rest in Peace is amazing in this matchup though. The Deathrite Shamans and Tarmogoyfs are completely neutered. The match can vary wildly depending on which threats the opponent draws. Playing a Pithing Needle on Liliana of the Veil proved to be crucial, and in another game I ended up resolving a turn 2 Liliana of the Veil off of Dark Ritual paired with a Wasteland which seriously locked my opponent out of the game. I won in 3 games.

    Round 2: Nic Fit
    There seem to be a few players at my local who use this style of deck. The main threat is Pernicious Deed, but it is defeated by Pithing Needle an Revoker out of the board. Leyline and helm both dodge Abrupt Decay, which is huge. The opponent brought in Slaughter Games, which won a game on its own because I had no win conditions left. I had a slow draw that game though, so I should usually be able to race it. The opponent also had Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, but the fact that Rest in Peace exiles my own graveyard made those cards a little difficult to use. In one game, I had a fast hand, so it came down to the third game. I had a leyline with a bunch of extra rips in hand, and the opponent had a deed. I resolved helm, which didn't do much because the opponent can deed in response to my activation. The opponent had to keep up 4 mana though, so they weren't able to develop their board very much. They were clocking me with Veteran Explorers, but I was able to find a Pithing Needle to force the deed activation and then win by helming in response. My opponent also had an abrupt decay in hand, which could have killed the needle in response, allowing him to deed away the leyline, but they didn't have enough mana open to cast the decay + deed for 4. I won in 3.

    Round 3: Merfolk
    These were fast games. My opponent curved out, but I was able to win by being faster with Dark Ritual. My opponent had many creatures and a very fast clock, but not too much to interact with my spells, so a single Duress/Thoughtseize was able to clear the way for my combo. In one game, I resolved a Humility as a speedbump, but I still lost before I could find anything else. I sided in Humility, Engineered Plague, and Circle of Protection: Blue. I ran into the same problem with E. plague here as I did against goblins 2 weeks ago. With all the random lords that the tribal decks use, a single plague rarely does anything. My plan is to combine it with Humility and lock them out, but it's difficult to find everything fast enough. I might increase the counts of e. plague or Humility when I rework the sideboard. I ended up winning in 3 games.

    Round 4: 12 post w/ green
    We split this match because it was getting late, but it seemed like it would be very interesting.

  6. #6

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Hmmm......no Swords to Plowshares? Also I think trying to fit in an Ensnaring Bridge would be good.

    Too bad you don't have many enchantments, otherwise Serra's Sanctum could have been a decent accelerator.

  7. #7

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    12 post with green sounds like turbo eldrazi. I like the idea but I think that some of your numbers are off. 4 helm is asking to die with confidant, plus it's extremely clunky in multiples. Bring up the fact that you are running top and tutor and I think the slots could be better serving as removal. This feels like a turn 3/4 combo deck, which makes chrome moxen a solid choice. If nothing else I'd split petals and moxen. Black and White without vindicate feels wrong but that could just be me being nostalgic. I know that they are for the combo but I can't help wondering if LotV or RIP could be shaved for more removal slots. Cool deck, I like it.

    Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I like Ensnaring Bridge. I think I can try that instead of Engineered Plague.

    I would add Vindicate in a heartbeat, but it seems like Oblivion Ring is just better since it's tutorable and you don't really need to remove things forever - you just need to buy some time before you combo off.

    If I were to take out some of the extra helms or leylines, what are some cards that I could add instead?

  9. #9

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchar View Post
    I like Ensnaring Bridge. I think I can try that instead of Engineered Plague.

    I would add Vindicate in a heartbeat, but it seems like Oblivion Ring is just better since it's tutorable and you don't really need to remove things forever - you just need to buy some time before you combo off.

    If I were to take out some of the extra helms or leylines, what are some cards that I could add instead?
    I'd consider looking at [card]Enlightened Tutor[/cards] and the upcoming Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can use SDT to draw on your opponent's turn, and Bob isn't affected by it should you play that. Alternatively, you change those slots for Liliana of the Veil.

  10. #10
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Tidehollow Sculler would be a tutorable hand disruption spell. Maybe it would be a good idea to add some creatures. I could try playing with the stoneforge + equipment + revoker + dark confidant package since it is able to apply pressure by attacking in addition to the combo kill. In this case, I'd probably want to take out some of the fast mana and sensei tops to make room.

  11. #11
    Magic Player

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Boston
    Posts

    157

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Quote Originally Posted by Malchar View Post
    Wheel of Sun and Moon doesn't really add anything. If you use helm, it just causes a draw because the cards keep cycling through the library. Between leyline and rip, we have plenty of ways to deny their graveyard already.
    Yes and no. Wheel can also target you so that none of your cards are exiled with RiP. This works because you have two replacement effects and get to choose which one you want to apply.

  12. #12

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I don't understand the role of Wasteland in this deck. You're not looking for temp, and don't you want to make your land drops to enable a combo turn? Also, adding more fetchlands will enable more Top+Fetch+Top turns, which is crucial when looking for combo pieces and/or recovering from disruption. Might it make sense to do:
    -4 Wasteland
    +3 Black Fetch
    +1 Godless Shrine

  13. #13
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Cutting wasteland makes a lot of sense. I frequently don't want to be trading lands because I need to be able to cast helm for 4. Most opponents are happy to stay on fewer land than that. Now that I think about it, wasteland was just a relic from an earlier build.

  14. #14

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Put another fetch in, like Arid Mesa or Verdant Catacombs.

  15. #15
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I played at a weekly event again. I used the same version as last time with the chrome moxes and Liliana in the main. Here are the results:

    Round 1: Elves
    It went to three games, but I felt like it was pretty close. I'm able to dodge their hate cards like abrupt decay, but I have difficulty interacting with them. It ends up being a race. In the third game, I resolved humility on turn three, but he had an aggressive draw and just killed me by attacking with 1/1's. Wasteland was actually decent in this matchup, but it's still probably correct overall to take it out of the deck.

    Round 2: Jund
    I had a quick combo in the first game. Again, being able to blank abrupt decay was huge. For game two, I swapped Liliana for dark confidant since I figured that jund could capitalize on Liliana better than I could, and it paid off. I opened with swamp, dark ritual x2, dark confidant x2, sensei's divining top. I was able to keep the opponent off of their threats with wasteland and hand disruption, and I just killed him by attacking with the confidants.

    Round 3: Patriot Delver
    This match went to three games. I think I had Liliana every game, and she was quite good. In the game that I lost, I had Liliana vs. meddling mage on helm and a delver. I could have stabilized but he played another delver to eat the sacrifice. In the other games, I was able to resolve a quick Liliana and she completely locked out my opponent.

    Round 4: Burn
    I ended up losing here. It was difficult to find the correct kinds of disruption. A goblin guide on turn one caused a ton of damage that I couldn't deal with. I need to resolve a dark confidant or Liliana asap to stop their creatures. I also have to get a few discard spells to stop the burn. It went to three games, and some of them were pretty close. I got lucky in the game that I won because my opponent fireblasted to zero land, and then I resolved a Liliana to make her discard a bunch of topdecked burn spells that she couldn't cast. After a few turns of that, she started drawing mountains again, but then no other spells. I sided in dark confidant over Liliana because I figured that I could use it to trade with early creatures or burn spells. I ended up keeping a skeptical hand with one land, and I wasted too many turns before I could find additional land.

    In every situation, chrome mox was better than lotus petal would have been, but I didn't actually draw it that often anyway. For next week, I'll try removing wasteland and adding ensnaring bridge to the sideboard. As for fetchlands, would 5 or 6 be a more ideal number?

  16. #16
    Member
    Malchar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2007
    Location

    Roseville, MN
    Posts

    946

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I played at my weekly tournament again last Wednesday. I went 1-2 drop unfortunately, but each match went to three games, and they felt pretty close.

    This week, I beat burn - the same opponent that I had lost to in a previous week. Dark ritual was crucial because it allowed me to go off much sooner than normal. Burn has minimal disruption, so it's just a race. The opponent did bring in smash to smithereens, but I was able to pick that off with my hand disruption.

    I lost round two against rug delver. I think that I overvalued Liliana, and in one game I went all-in on resolving a quick Liliana, but the opponent easily overwhelmed me with creatures.

    I lost the third round against nic fit. The games were close. The helm/leyline combo dodges abrupt decay, but pernicious deed can still be a problem. There is a good chance that you can race against pernicious deed, and you also have pithing needle to shut it down. I made a mistake in game one because I didn't realize that I was playing against nic fit right away. I thought it was just jund or something because I was facing scavenging ooze and kessig wolf run. I played a preemptive needle on the wolf run to save some damage, but then the opponent played a deed, and I was never able to get enough gas to power through it.

    I'm going to start looking into some alternative mana bases. I might try using some sol lands, mox diamond, or maybe mox opal with artifact lands.

  17. #17
    Site Contributor
    Monkey_Island's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2013
    Location

    France
    Posts

    97

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    I have been tinkering lately with this deck:

    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Helm Of Obedience
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    4 Leyline Of The Void
    4 Rest In Peace

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Swords To Plowshares

    2 Toxic Deluge

    3 Liliana Of The Veil
    3 Sorin, Lord Of Innistrad

    2 Fetid Heath
    1 Flooded Strand
    4 Marsh Flats
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Scrubland
    4 Swamp
    4 Plains

    SB:

    4 Leyline Of Sanctity
    3 Defense Grid
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Humility
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Oblivion Ring


    First I tried a sol Lands mana base with Urborg but I had still trouble to reach double black for hardcasting LotV or Liliana. Mox Diamond could be a solution but we would have to remove 4 spells and add 4 lands somewhere... Sorin was good. His tokens chump block non flying creatures like a boss and it is an alternative win con. The lifegain also will be helpful if you add sol lands.
    I am willing to try Sol lands again and maybe a WB talisman or signet. Bottled Cloister and Ensnaring Bridge also fit well in this deck. I have also yet to try the Stoneforge package with Batterskull... For the record, I also tried a mono black version with Night's Whisper but the lack of tutor + RIP was too harmful.

    I am just throwing ideas here but I think this deck has some potential. It has access to the best removals of the format (StP + Deluge), good PW and as you stated top the best compact combo of the format... Furthermore, I had fun once opening with Fetch, double Dark Ritual, Leyline Of The Void and Helm Of Obedience!

  18. #18

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Monkey, have you tried a straight swap with the Chrome Mox?

  19. #19

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    Monkey, I would suggest some Thoughtseizes in there. To clear away any problem cards, like countermagic or say hate bears. Plus getting to see what's up on the other side.


    Maybe also a Cabal Therapy/Gitaxian Probe package with Lingering Souls to provide more discard and chump blockers until you set up the combo? Probably way too many slots devoted to that though. I also thought about Ancient tombs but there are too many colored spells.


    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Lingering Souls
    4 Helm of Obedience
    4 Rest in Peace
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Dark Ritual
    3 Sensei's Diving Top
    22 lands

    Should probably find a way to throw in an Oblivion Ring. And there's no card draw either, well I guess there's a cantrip and then Top smoothes out draws. But they aren't Bob.

  20. #20
    Site Contributor
    Monkey_Island's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2013
    Location

    France
    Posts

    97

    Re: W/B Helm Leyline

    @ Darkenslight: Do you mean, Mox Diamond in place of Chrome Mox? I never tried Mox Diamonds in a build with less than 24 lands...
    @ Wilkin: Thoughtseize and Therapy are interesting. I tried Hymn but spot discard seems better. Lingering Souls also crossed my mind. Maybe Sorin + Lingering Souls is enough tokens to remove the Gitaxian Probes...

    I will test your suggestions and also retry Bottled Cloister + sol lands.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)