Would you like to see Survival back in the format?

[Barook]

Survival of the Fittest

Many people love this card. Unfortunately, it was banned because it dominated with Vengevine before its ban. Necrotic Ooze combo was also part of the reasoning to ban it.

But times have changed. We now have

Scavenging Ooze
Phyrexian Revoker
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Rest in Peace
Surgical Extraction

among other things to handle Survival and its problematic aspects. And that doesn't even count old answers like Pithing Needle.

My question now is: Would you like to see a paradigm shift to bring Survival back, even if it means that Vengevine (maybe Ooze and other future cards) have to go?

[nedleeds]

The more apt comparison is now we have Green Sun's Zenith. They both compete for business slots. We also have Craterhoof and Natural Order which is in most cases just a faster better version of the Vengevine kill (in some cases it's not, but it's certainly comprable in terms of speed and color commitment). We have Show and Tell into Yawgmoth's Bargain and Omnijoke. We cast no spells and make a 20/20 flying indestructible turd.

In addition to what you've listed, we have

Grafdigger's Cage
Thalia

[Koby]

Fuck Vengevine, and fuck Basking Rootwalla.

I found a new set of toys:

Loyal Retainers, Griselbrand, and (Necrotic Ooze). :grin:

[Dzra]

Scavenging Ooze
Phyrexian Revoker
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Rest in Peace
Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Terminus

My question now is: Would you like a paradigm shift to see Survival back, even if it means that Vengevine (and maybe Ooze) have to go?

Yes, I would love to see Survival back and I don't even think it's necessary to ban Vengevine (perhaps Ooze would necessitate a ban at some point). There are plenty of new cards printed that are very good against Survival, particularly Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Survival is a great example of a card that pushes a deck to be non-Blue by making every non-creature spell in your deck a potential liability. (Similar examples that come to mind are Glimpse of Nature and Aether Vial.)

I don't just think Survival is safe to unban; I think Survival would be great for the format.

[JPoJohnson]

Fuck Vengevine, and fuck Basking Rootwalla.

I found a new set of toys:

Loyal Retainers, Griselbrand, and (Necrotic Ooze). :grin:

I would be shocked if you built a deck that DIDN'T focus on Griselbrand haha

[Scott]

Yes, I would love to see Survival back and I don't even think it's necessary to ban Vengevine (perhaps Ooze would necessitate a ban at some point). There are plenty of new cards printed that are very good against Survival, particularly Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace.

Survival is a great example of a card that pushes a deck to be non-Blue by making every non-creature spell in your deck a potential liability. (Similar examples that come to mind are Glimpse of Nature and Aether Vial.)

I don't just think Survival is safe to unban; I think Survival would be great for the format.

I don't pretend to be an expert on SotF. Is the consensus that most SotF decks today would be non-blue?

[Barook]

The only problem I see with Survival is that it's on the RL. One would expect a massive price surge a few days before a possible unban. Thanks, insider trading!

[Dzra]

I don't pretend to be an expert on SotF. Is the consensus that most SotF decks today would be non-blue?

It'd probably depend somewhat on the meta. For example, if the presence of Survival causes an increase in Storm combo then I might expect more Survival decks wanting to run FoW. In general though, the card definitely pushes a deck builder towards maximizing creature packages and minimizing spells (aka Blue cards). The latest and most successful iterations of Survival before it was banned were basically what we'd called Maverick today with the addition of Survival and Vengevine.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Would.

I'm even considering to pick up a set just in case.

[Gheizen64]

Unban Survival, MM, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Mind desire, frantic search, Earthcraft, Memory jar tomorrow plz.

Yes i'd like Surv back very much. Pretty green intensive for a weaker SnT.

[Megadeus]

I would love it. FInally got my Vengevines in the mail. Would love to use them in something that isn't completely awful

[Final Fortune]

Unban Survival, MM, Black Vise, Mind Twist, Mind desire, frantic search, Earthcraft, Memory jar tomorrow plz.

Yes i'd like Surv back very much. Pretty green intensive for a weaker SnT.

Add Skullclamp and I'd endorse this 100%, aggro needs broken shit too please.

[Gheizen64]

I think surv would mainly played in an elves! base nowadays. Time to dust off those EPlagues, and fuck you TNN

[Dreg]

Survival is an interesting card. I would like to see it again.
Pre-vengevine survival decks were something elegant. They required a decent amount of thought to play and were not unstoppable machines of death. I always liked the toolbox-style of those decks, they were a good example of proper reaction to every situation. But that might just be my personal infatuation with the deck itself.

I find Vengevine to be the real culprit.

[Gheizen64]

Add Skullclamp and I'd endorse this 100%, aggro needs broken shit too please.

Elves! would become the only possible aggro deck with clamp. Which in turn would make Enginereed plague the best card in the format, and red actually good again i think. Why not. TNN isn't the best with clamp anyway.

[Barook]

I think surv would mainly played in an elves! base nowadays. Time to dust off those EPlagues, and fuck you TNN

Maybe, but it also has a competitor in GSZ which can accel on T1.

[Final Fortune]

Elves! would become the only possible aggro deck with clamp. Which in turn would make Enginereed plague the best card in the format, and red actually good again i think. Why not. TNN isn't the best with clamp anyway.

I'll see your Elves and raise you an Affinity sir, Stoneforge Mystic wants you to jack into the Matrix.

Oh and unban Survival of the Fittest for Christ's sake, the worse thing it could do is abuse Loyal Retainers.

[Nonex]

Vengevine damaged Survival beyond repair long before the ban. Since the format's inception one could build pretty much any version of his/her choice, with any color combination, any gameplan and any creature package. You could run almost any pet card of yours and do well with it. It was very difficult to find two identical or considerably similar lists unless one player blatantly copied the other. There wasn't a specific list proved to be the best. You could adapt to any metagame that wasn't dominated by fast combo with all colors at your disposal. Survival was Johnny's dream come true.

Then Vengevine came and replaced most strategies and win conditions. Anything you could come up with was practically always inferior to simply attacking for 16 on turn 3-4. Spike entered Johnny's territory and came up with a GW list all Spikes and Timmies would later copy. All the variety in colors and roles we saw during the last years disappeared. The standard, tested, by default list had finally appeared (getting later strenghened by Necrotic Ooze). This is how Vengevine actually killed Survival.

Now, given all the years Survival has been in the format and never really dominated it, I deduce it wasn't the problem. Seeing how Vengevine has gotten no presence in Legacy except from getting in a few Elves lists, I can safely say it isn't dangerous either; so the problem can only lie in the interaction between the two, and one of them had to go. Which one should get the axe is highly subjective.

That said, even if we've received a lot of varied hate lately, and even if we could just unban Survival for the format to remain fine, I'd like to see Vengevine banned for the above reasons. I'd like to see Survival go back to its roots and become a swiss army knife again. Though that's just my opinion.

(Now that I think of it, a +Survival -Vengevine alone might not solve everything. I sure wouldn't want to see Survival decks racing to see who puts more TNNs into play in the shortest amount of time.)

[Barook]

(Now that I think of it, a +Survival -Vengevine alone might not solve everything. I sure wouldn't want to see Survival decks racing to see who puts more TNNs into play in the shortest amount of time.)

The origin of this thread is actually from the B/R discussion thread about what should be banned/unbanned to make the format healthier and more fun. Of course TNN has to go.

[apple713]

Survival is an interesting card. I would like to see it again.
Pre-vengevine survival decks were something elegant. They required a decent amount of thought to play and were not unstoppable machines of death. I always liked the toolbox-style of those decks, they were a good example of proper reaction to every situation. But that might just be my personal infatuation with the deck itself.

I find Vengevine to be the real culprit.

Unfortunately in these situations you are forced to ban the enabler which was survival. Eventually it will enable something else they print and become a repeat offender.

I disagree with their decision but i understood it at the time. Its time to unban it