Yes
No
Just brainstorming on the fly... but something like this would probably be the first list that I tested.Originally Posted by Hof
//Land 22
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
//Creatures 30
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Vengevine
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Basking Rootwalla
1 Memnite
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
//Other 8
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Swords to Plowshares
It's possible that Loyal Retainers should be in the SB and Thalia is good enough to be MD instead. It's also possible that we don't care about Wastelanding and would rather just have more Cradles/Green sources. Scavenging Ooze and Scryb Ranger are also possible MD inclusions. Quad Revoker is a concession to what is likely a poor Sneak and Show matchup.
Anyways, it's fun to think about. Scary looking deck.
I've heard that before actually, and I'm not averse to the possibility with Wasteland and Abrupt Decay running around. My only real concerns would be budgetary but that's probably a lost cause at this point in the format. Actually an expensive deck without a dual-heavy mana base might actually ease some pressure on other decks. Part of the problem is that right now the best decks are almost entirely blue-based three color good-stuff decks.
That's a declared goal I guess, but it's putting the cart before the horse to presume it supersedes the major unstated goal of this format, as any other game; to be fun and interesting.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
You forgot Anger and Squee, Goblin Nabob.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
+1
So the question is, would I like to see the most interesting Magic card of all time. The most skill intensive, the most testing, the most dynamicly green card ever back in Legacy. Who in their right mind says No to this? BAN VENGEVINE, UNBAN Survival! They got it wrong from the beginning... and BAN SHOW AND TELL already. They got it wrong from the start, Survival was nothing but awesome. Now they print True-Name Nemesis and ruin magic forever. Awesome all around.
I don't agree with most skill intensive, but Survival was certainly a very fun and interactive archetype. As a control player most of the time I found it really frustrating to struggle with, like trying to lop the heads of a hydra (even with maindeck Humility,) but it was very engaging and led to interesting games, for the most part.
And there were so many different ways to build around Survival, most of which in no way resembled other decks played before or since in other archetypes, with cards like the above mentioned Squee/Anger, or Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary or Genesis or Seedborn Muse with Tradewind Rider, or Goblin Welder with Sundering Titan, or Recurring Nightmare or my personal favorite rando-target Keeper of the Dead that, without that engine, have never seen the light of day in Legacy. Or even Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks that never seem to quite make the cut in Legacy despite being all over the place in Modern.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Ha. Definitely a shout out to the classic pre-Vengevine era of Survival. I don't really think that either would be necessary alongside Vengevine though. I could see Wonder as a spicy one-of though.
Honestly, rather than thinking that Survival is too powerful with Vengevine, I'm of the mindset that Survival wouldn't be powerful enough in this format without Vengevine. While I love the Survival decks of old for their ability to be non-uniform value decks, I really don't think that durdling for value with Squees is good enough to be tier 1. Even Lands has a combo finish these days.
As for Show and Tell... prove to me that it's too big a hindrance on the format and then we can talk about banning it. Show and Tell underperformed at GP DC and did even worse at Eternal Weekend and only showed slightly more success at GP Paris (only putting up one top 8 between all three tournaments). True-Name Nemesis does far more harm than Show and Tell (if for no better reason than by preying on Death and Taxes, which is a natural foil for Sneak and Show).
Re: Would you like to see Survival back in the format?
Of course. Then I could finally play a creature based deck in an UW infested meta again.
But let's get serious, Wotc is just too lazy to even consider an unbanning of it...
Humphrey is always correct.
I understand many of you guys want Survival legal because you think that it is now answerable by md options such as Scavenging, Deathrite, Revoker etc. But you seem to forget that the Survival player can answer back all this stuff simply by activating Survival in response. Even if you Vial in @2 with Death and Taxes, any decent SotF.dec player knows that Revoker might hit the ground and he just needs to grab an answer at instant speed at the cost of a mere G mana… and this is just an example off the top of my head.
Also, as other people said before me in this thread, Survival is a 4 cards package that would be jammed in every single deck packing creatures and unarguably ANY creature.deck would be better just because has access to 4 Survivals. You advocate for format diversity and at the same time you want Survival legal. Lol, the midrange part of the format would look like this:
-GW Survival (formerly known as Maverick, Vial Maverick)
-Junk Survival (formerly known as Junk, Rock, Vial Junk)
-BUG Survival (formerly known as BUG Tempo, BUG Midrange, Team America)
-Big Zoo Survival
Anyways, I'd still love to see Survival legal again, just to see you crying again for bannings after one month because ''Survival doesn't contribute to the format diversity''. Survival would kill entire archetypes for the sole reason that if you pack at least 18 creatures it doesn't make sense not to play Survival. Also, for you brainstorm haters, Brainstorm+Survival Decks would be flat out better than non blue Survival Decks.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
It's really weird that someone would sound so confident while seeming completely ignorant of the actual tradition of Survival in the format.
(Join date 2010)
Oh.
You know that Survival was legal in this format before, right? For like, five or six years... which covered some of the most diverse and fun points in Legacy's history in terms of metagame composition.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
So for those not aware, some basic weaknesses with Survival as an archetype:
It's slow. Add 1GG to the cost of things and they tend to seem a lot less broken. Often 1GGGGG or something in fact.
It's vulnerable to both creature and graveyard hate as well as Pithing Needle, Abrupt Decay etc..
It's not a wish. You can't grab cards with Survival that aren't actually in your deck. So if you think you can just always have the perfect card for every situation in your deck, think again; especially because your list has to be able to at least partially function in scenarios where you don't have a live Survival.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Iba, you know that besides internet there's another thing called real life in which I was playing Mtg before 2010?
Now take a deep breath after this incredible revelation.
Survival gets more and more broken with the power creep of creatures. In 2009 you could get Rofellos and Loxodon Hierarch, well guess what, that was 5 years ago and a shitload of uber broken stuff has been printed since then.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
If you were getting Loxodon Hierarch with Survival in2 009, I'm sure the revelation that you can get other creatures seems like a staggering increase in power.
Creatures have certainly gotten better. This is a pretty stupid basis on which to support a pre-emptive banning.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Same reasoning could be applied to Show and Tell and you don't see that card being banned.
SoTF being banned is very silly considering the current meta of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Show and Tell, and Rest in Peace. Between main-decked cards that are good on their own along with plenty of sideboard options, SotF would be fine unbanned.
Yes, alongside Flametongue Kavus, Wickerbough Elder and Mystic Enforcer and Big game hunters... Maybe you can't remember what the deck lists looked like, have a look online.
Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.
Mind you, I'm not saying that survival would be format warping. I'm just saying that it would not contribute to format diversity because it would be obvious for any deck packing a certain threshold of creatures to run 4. It would be a no brainer.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Blue gets better almost every set after set but you don't see blue being banned.
Old Thresh lists ran Mystic Enforcer, maybe that's what you're thinking of?
I'm sure you can find a list that Hierarch or Enforcer somewhere, they were not standard. Wickerbough, FTK and Big Game Hunter would probably still see play, although Wickerbough only where white isn't available obviously.
Creatures sure do get better, why look, they're printing these creatures like... Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze...Well, considering that SotF has been banned for years now, and it's an enchantment that deals with creatures, it's the only basis we have to judge its potential impact on the format. It's the most intuitive at least- creatures get better set after set, Survival gets better set after set.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Yeah, I mean this is pretty much the most naked status quo bias.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Here you can have a look at the old RBGSA lists played in that period. I just checked the last 10 or so though.
SotF isn't just about going off with VV's or Retainers. SotF is a reliable form of card advantage and disruption at instant speed. Most of the cards that should stop SotF can be stopped once SotF is on the battlefield and you have a spare G mana open. I'm not saying is unstoppable, but its not as easy as you think. Barring Decay (which can be preemptively dealt with by Meddling Mage or Spellskite if you need to) any other answer can be dealt with or just ignored, because after all even if your SotF gets hosed by something, you are still left with a fairly good midrange deck packing discard and good creatures.
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
I guess permanents to put into play with Show and Tell don't get better and better every year now do they?
Or to a lesser extent spells for dream halls, artifacts for welder, equipment for sfm, etc.
Survival should come back to legacy, it opens up entire archetypes. If for some reason survival + 4x tnn became oppressive I would much rather tnn get axed just like v-vine the previous time.
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