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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2661
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    1. From my perspective I would say that you seem to strongly overrate winter orb, every legacy deck is so efficient now, I agree that it's good against Miracles and other control decks (if such a thing even exists) but you were even recommending boarding it in vs like DNT and Eldrazi which in my experience has way too much chance of backfiring / not doing anything. I would play max 1 SB and that's it.
    I would tend to agree, despite loving Winter Orb. I played one in the board of BUG back in the day and had reasonable success with it in the hey-day of Miracles, although, what you mention is absolutely true. I even had games where Orb was almost as bad for me as it was for the opponent, yet they would almost have to continue to fight over it. This was mainly because of Top, which, now gone, half invalidates the point of Winter Orb, from the thinking that included it back then.

    I wouldn't board it in vs D&T though as well, because as you mention it's as likely to backfire as it is to be useless, which leaves little room to really work. In the games where it would work, you'd probably have won anyway. Winter Orb is best where you are ahead on board and so can consolidate on your position. D&T runs both Vial to get around Orb almost totally and far more creatures to generally clog up the board making it hard to find a spot to actually play it profitably. The longer the game goes, the worse it will probably be for a Delver deck and better for D&T, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that Winter Orb makes cantrips pretty bad.

    Putting it in versus Eldrazi seems more reasonable, since their velocity can be greater than ours, although, again, the issue of the state of the board can be a problem. In a perfect world, you'd have done something like Wasted their Cavern, Dazed something big, then land the Orb with them tapped out and something like a Delver on the board. By the time they could land another thing, you'd be far enough ahead to win through the big stupid things they'd eventually play. It's a bit of a long shot, but you have Brainstorm to shuffle away a dead copy. Last thing you want is to draw more though.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  2. #2662

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

    In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.

  3. #2663

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by AdventuresWithTarmo View Post
    Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

    In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.
    You won't get a consensus answer on this

    I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
    4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
    For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
    And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
    (Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

    Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

    Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
    - Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
    - Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
    - Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

    I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
    I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 07-06-2018 at 10:54 AM.

  4. #2664

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    You won't get a consensus answer on this

    I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
    4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
    For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
    And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
    (Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

    Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

    Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
    - Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
    - Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
    - Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

    I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
    I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf

    Wow, that was very informative. Thank you! I might give the preordain idea a try. I suppose tarmogoyf is still able to be boarded out versus combo anyway (a couple copies)

    Not having DRS anymore makes me look at this strategy much differently. Two drops are a lot riskier to play.

  5. #2665
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...tled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.
    Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com

    deckstats.net archive

  6. #2666

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/...tled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.
    It's not recent enough, as your article refers to probe and DRS, and your thoughts on Tarmogoyf consist completely of just "haha"...I don't feel like your article had me covered as far as an opinion of Tarmogoyf went.

  7. #2667
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

    What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Destructive Reveley
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Rough // Tumble
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam
    Threshold

  8. #2668

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

    What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Destructive Reveley
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Rough // Tumble
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam
    Many deck will board in REB to fight stifle/delver. It's a bad idea to fight red decks with blue cards. Winter orb takes care of the miracle mu.

  9. #2669

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I like the idea of destructive revelry, hiski. Ive seen a lot of rest in peace, blood moon and back to basics around. (Even though we can pyroblast BtB)

    I know that rest in peace doesn't kill us, and we can even stifle the trigger, but it can strand tarmogoyfs and nimble mongoose (to a degree) in my hand. It's nice to have a disenchant effect.

    Would just have to find room for it in the board. Currently my sideboard is:
    1 Rough//Tumble
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Submerge
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Null Rod
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Vendilion Clique

  10. #2670

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    What is null rod for?

  11. #2671
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    What is null rod for?
    You'll occasionally run into a heavy-artifact deck, but it's great against any deck that uses artifact mana (Storm -- LED and Lotus Petal) as well as any Stoneblade/equipment and/or Aether Vial deck. It's just a hard counter to all artifacts and doesn't tie your mana up any further like Ancient Grudge -- though you may still want some Grudges to deal with Chalice of the Void.

    Nice to come back to a DRS-less Legacy (and Probe!) after taking an extended break. Both cards were getting stale.

  12. #2672

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?

  13. #2673

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by cheerios View Post
    Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?
    I think there were only a couple of people who posted successful finishes with this
    a) Without Therapy or Delve cards in RUG (some versions of RUG do play delve cards) there wasn't the same incentive to play Probe compared to Grixis, and Probe is one of the cards that made Pyromancer much stronger
    b) You just don't have Therapy in your deck at all, which is another card that makes Pyromancer a lot better
    c) The most common builds of Grixis didn't play Stifle. Pyromancer gets better when you can freely tap out chaining cantrips and not need to hold up mana for instants. (Cards like Stifle are also situational, so you might hold up blue mana and then not get to cast it, in which case you won't get any Elemental Token).
    d) Many people played a configuration for the Grixis Delver pseudo-mirror that allowed you to board out Delver of Secrets and have all your threats be immune to Lightning Bolt. If you were playing additional 2/1 creatures this probably wouldn't be possible
    e) *Extremely weak reason alert*: People sometimes played non-instant non-sorcery removal in the form of Seal of Fire to make Tarmogoyf stronger, which doesn't trigger YP

    I think without Probe in the format we will start to see much less Pyromancer, period, and I don't think it's particularly good in RUG

  14. #2674
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

    Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?
    Threshold

  15. #2675

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.
    RUG is currently about 12% of the meta-game, according to all the post-ban metrics Ive seen. By contrast, Miracles is about 10% and Grixis Delver is about 4%. BUG isn't even in the main chart because it's under 3% meta game share.

    Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?
    It's actually more popular than both of them and the price of volcanics/trops has nothing to do with it. In a format like Legacy, people will play (competitively) what is winning and what they enjoy - price has never been a serious barrier to entry for the people who are into competitive legacy.

  16. #2676

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by hiski View Post
    Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

    Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?
    Looking at MTGGoldfish, from the 2 starcity classics and the 2 challenges since the unban it seems RUG is the most popular Delver variant (the only tournament that was the exception was the Atlanta Classic where Grixis was 1st and 9th and only 1 RUG in top 16 (3rd place). RUG was also 3rd at Worcester.

    I think the main reason is that RUG just isn't much stronger than other decks in the same way that grixis delver was. There are other non-DRS decks that were fringe-playable in the DRS format that have also 'improved' (Stoneblade, DNT).

    Possibly some people also have a kind of "yay now I can try whatever I want" and moved to try something else after an era of Delver being dominant for ages

  17. #2677

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?

  18. #2678
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've been testing this list online:

    Land [19]
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island
    3 Tropical Island
    1 Island
    4 Wasteland

    Creature [13]
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Nimble Mongoose
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    Spells [28]
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Spell Pierce
    1 Forked Bolt

    Sideboard [15]
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Submerge
    2 Winter Orb
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Ancient Grudge
    1 Abrade
    1 Destructive Revelry
    1 Null Rod
    1 Rough//Tumble
    1 Echoing Truth

    It's a little bit more threat dense, and also plays one extra land to support TNN and SCM. Echoing Truth in sideboard has also been very useful against Empty the Warrens and Blood Moon.
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  19. #2679
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I sleeved up good old Canadian for a LGS tournament yesterday. It was a ton of fun and I went 3-0-1

    2-0 Lands
    2-1 Dredge
    1-1 Maverick
    2-0 Miracles

    Creatures:12
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    2 Tarmogoyf
    1 Young Pyromancer
    1 True-Name Nemesis

    Spells:30
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Ponder
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Dismember
    4 Force of Will

    Lands:18
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:15
    1 Sulfur Elemental
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Null Rod
    1 Rough // Tumble
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 Submerge

    Takeaways:

    Young Pyromancer is bad. I knew this before, but I wanted to confirm it. The rest of the main is great!

    The TNN in side should be Clique, maybe I even want to play a second Clique instead of Null Rod. That depends on how much DnT I'm anticipating.

    I'm undecided on Spell Pierce in side. I like that it can counter Artifacts, Enchantments and Planeswalker as well but maybe I just need Flusterstorm more for the important matchups (Miracles/Storm).

    1 submerge is either way to less or far to much. I would love to play something else in this slot but I think it has to be blue. Maybe Vapor Snag or a second Fire//Ice? Has anybody experience with Dead//Gone?

  20. #2680

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenCid View Post
    I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?
    I think the answer is yes...go for it then...

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