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Thread: Khans of Tarkir:

  1. #821
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Agreed with everything.
    Congrats on the baby!
    I'll chime in. Congratz!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    If I didn't have a big wiggly three month old daughter as my constant focus I'd break out my ancient
    Congratulations as well; my daughters six now so I know what you mean about not playing as much. I purchased a dozen Treasure Cruise's (they were only 15 cent each) as I am convinced they are worth playing. As you said 3 mana for 3 cards is a good deal.

    On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks. You aim to make a dozen goblins turn two and then if you need more pressure follow up with EtP a turn or two later to finish the game. It is probably only going to be good enough in a budget storm deck like Sac-Land-Tendrils though.
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by lyracian View Post
    Congratulations as well; my daughters six now so I know what you mean about not playing as much. I purchased a dozen Treasure Cruise's (they were only 15 cent each) as I am convinced they are worth playing. As you said 3 mana for 3 cards is a good deal.

    On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks. You aim to make a dozen goblins turn two and then if you need more pressure follow up with EtP a turn or two later to finish the game. It is probably only going to be good enough in a budget storm deck like Sac-Land-Tendrils though.
    Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  4. #824
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by lyracian View Post
    On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks.
    It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?
    The few times I have played storm I have lost to Thalia/Cannonist and PiF does not really help there; of course PiF probably gives a better success rate going off.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.
    I agree as a Sorcery it would have been an interesting Wish target; there is just no way it is worth main-decking in TES/ANT as an Instant.
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?
    Ok, since we're bringing it over here...like I said it's generally a worse option than EtW, and I think for the most part that goes for PiF too. Still, it's a close second in combo because when you're already running a pile of instant-speed rituals, you can actually crank out a respectable number of zombies pretty fast. Once you've hit the initial BBBB, a Dark Rit is 2 Zombies. Cabal Rit with threshold is 3. Rain of Filth makes each land = Zombie. All this is doable EoT, or in response to a RiP trigger, DRS activation, Surgical...all the common grave hate.

    I don't think it makes the cut in TES or AnT because you're already on Red and have Wish and all that jazz, but I'll at least be testing it in TinFins as a postboard alternative to Griselbrand. It might still not be good enough because it's still graveyard dependent, but it dodges all the targeted removal, any Grizzlebees-specific hate (Karakas, Needle/Revoker), and it's on color. Plus we already have Entomb, which makes ritual mana that much more efficient at making Zombies.

    That's why I see as a black EtW rather than a black Entreat. It's not something I think you want to try to build up to in the mid-late game, because it's just too easy to answer by then. I think it's more of a turn 3-4 spell, which should be pretty realistic given how quickly combo decks can hit threshold. Really my biggest concern at this point is how good the blue Delve spells turn out to be, and if that will change the nature of grave hate in the format. If everyone moves from Surgical to Relic and you're trying to delve 10+ cards, you're gonna have a bad time.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    If everyone moves from Surgical to Relic and you're trying to delve 10+ cards, you're gonna have a bad time.
    Are you saying Relic because of its first or second ability?
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Are you saying Relic because of its first or second ability?
    Both of them. The first one suppresses threshold in first turns, then once the opponent gets to three lands and five+ cards in gy, you sac it in anticipation of devle cards, simultaneously drawing into the much needed counterspell.

  9. #829

    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.
    Why do you say that?

  10. #830

    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximumC View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I believe this author is correct. These cards are powerful and potentially dangerous. Here are a few key reasons why:

    (1) They require nothing more than that you are playing Magic to become powerful.

    This is why Tarmagoyf, while seemingly conditional, was actually amazing. When Goyf was first spoiled, everyone complained that he would only work in a dredge shell that could maximize him quickly. As it turns out, Goyf is perfectly happy to just go in any deck because playing the game normally will power him up in almost every match.

    These draw cards are the same. A legacy deck is going to have two to three cards in its yard very quickly between fetches, cantrips, and early removal or threats. That means that Treasure Cruise, for example, will typically cost 5U or 4U around the time it becomes relevant. Thatís a more expensive concentrate, isnít it? Sure, but look how quickly the cost is dropping to more reasonable levels. By turns four or five, when you probably are running out cards in hand and need to reload, I would be shocked if any deck with a reasonably low curve has not put at least five cards in your yard. By the time you get down to 2U, this Treasure Cruise becomes the best draw spell in Legacy. More than that is cake.

    And, did you need to pull any shenanigans to fuel this card? No. You just needed to play the game, and needed time to pass. Incidentally, this is why I think these cards have more legs in Legacy than Vintage. Though Vintage has more interaction per turn, typically Legacy games have more turns and therefore more time to power up your Delve cards.

    (2) They are powerful in multiples.

    This is the biggest error I see in people analyzing these cards. People also complained about the Legendary status of Jace TMS, and he sees plenty of play as a four-of. Why would you do that when the second one is dead in your hand? Because if you hit the first one, youíre probably winning already and you can afford the dead card.

    These cards are exactly the same. Once your opponent has gone on a Cruise once, the game is over if you started at parity. Three cards is HUGE. Ask anyone in Vintage whether they win a game when someone resolves an Ancestral Recall in the first few turns. (Hint: No.)

    Moreover, when youíve drawn a bunch of extra cards, you will be off to the races to refuel your yard for the next Cruise. Heck, if you draw just a pair of removal spells or cantrips, youíve already set up the next Cruise for 5U in midgame, putting you two or three more spells away from value town again. And letís not forget that as your mana base increases as the game goes long, the need to Delve to cast the spell gets less and less relevant.

    (3) Playing yard hate just for these cards leaves your opponent horribly vulnerable.

    Until TNN, Goyf was probably the most universal threat in Legacy. Yet, people did not universally run main deck yard hate to deal with him. Why? Because every card you run that turns off Goyf potentially leaves you naked to another threat in the same deck. Say youíre playing against RWU Delver, and you know theyíre running four Treasure Cruise. Do you actually side in your yard hate? Do you want to be playing Rest in Peace as they flip the Delver and start beating for 3 each turn? Thatís a terrible place to put yourself.

    Indeed, assuming that the Delve player really has no other need for the graveyard, if you put in a lot of yard hate, youíre giving them the same card advantage they were going to get from going on a Treasure Cruise in the first place.

    This is less true if your opponentís yard hate consists of stuff like Joten Grunt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or the Junk Khan, but those cards see less play because they do less work against the decks you really need to cripple with yard hate.
    This is by far the best analysis I've seen on this so far.

    Don't be distracted by claims that they are "bad in multiples". Playing 4-of these cards just enables you to hit them more consistently on turn 3-4 and blow out your opponent. Any others in your hand beyond that a.) occur with smaller degree of probability, as drawing 3 more of that card is not as common and b.) don't matter at that stage in the game because you just drew 3 cards and you will probably continue filling your graveyard again over the next few turns.

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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by pfiremc13 View Post
    Why do you say that?
    Because you can't Burning Wish for Instants, which means you can't just throw Empty the Pits into the board for corner cases.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  12. #832
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by pfiremc13 View Post
    Why do you say that?
    As it was presented, that card would be good in a Storm deck post fizzle, with lots of cards in the graveyard but a living opponent across from you. So it's already established that we're into plan B mode at this point. Most storm builds are too tightly build to afford an exclusive plan B card. It's either a redundant plan A card like Past in Flames, or a toolbox card like Burning Wish. Since Burning Wish is Sorcery only, the fact that this is an Instant ruins it's playability. Otherwise I think it would get some use as a B.Wish > Empty the Pits > D.Rit > Delve for 100 play after you did your math wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Surprised to see Jeskai Swiftblade pass under the radar here seeing as it ousts Goblin Guide as the best red 1-drop in the format and as such is more or less guaranteed play in Lightning Bolt.dec. I guess Delve ancestral and better-than-FoF is guaranteed at least some play as well, but being conditional and using the most easily hateable resource in the game are not points in their favour, especially as most decks already try to utilize their graveyard in some capacity.

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    Re: Khans of Tarkir:

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinitium View Post
    Surprised to see Jeskai Swiftblade pass under the radar here seeing as it ousts Goblin Guide as the best red 1-drop in the format and as such is more or less guaranteed play in Lightning Bolt.dec. I guess Delve ancestral and better-than-FoF is guaranteed at least some play as well, but being conditional and using the most easily hateable resource in the game are not points in their favour, especially as most decks already try to utilize their graveyard in some capacity.
    Nah brah we had a funeral for Raging Goblin and stuff a couple pages back

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Monastery Swiftspear

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    I know that KilnFiend.dec is not really A Real Thing, but with the advent of all these Prowess cards I have to wonder if it is going to start to be Almost A Thing. This guy for example; a 1/2 for R?! The hell is that toughness doing there without a drawback! But anyway, in a burn-heavy deck with the right number* of aggressive dorks running around that pump when you cast burny things, it starts to look like something that one could get away with. Coupla Kiln Fiends, coupla this guy, maaaybe some Blue dork since that deck probably plays Gixatian Probe and suddenly you're turn 3ing 26 damages off of two Bolts and a Fireblast. Rawr!

    * obviously the more dudes in such a deck the less burn can be in there so it'd be a delicate balance, but this guy is better than, like, Blistercoil Weird in terms of just being durdly and aggro
    But basically yeah, later I went on to say that he's probably going to bite Goblin Guide's heels as time passes. A single burn spell makes him bigger than Guide, and he doesn't risk giving the opponent cards in hand. I think a deck that would play Guide would *also* play this guy, at least for now, but it definitely goes a long way towards challenging several other cards for being a go-to Red one-drop.
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