Modern Format diversity disappointing?

[JPoJohnson]

When you have rules such as:

Can't kill before turn 4
Slow players can't play certain decks
Cards that would see high field penetration shouldn't exist

You end up with a shallow grouping of cards that you're left with. There are many many decks I would love to run, but having a certain card here or there banned out makes the resulting mess of a deck either not consistent or too glass cannon. Either are big cons to attempting to build further.

I think there are some decks such as Merfolk, Soul Sisters and the likes that are indeed stronger than people give them credit. The format is a bit stagnant in that there are not many brewers in the format.

[JDK]

It was an opened ended question "Modern format diversity disappointing?"

But when you look at the format archetype breakdown, over half the field is playing the big 4 Archetypes (Jund, Twin, Robots, Jund) A quarter is made up of Scapeshift, Tron, Storm, Burn merfolk, and the last quarter is a bunch of 1ofs decks.

So really the claim to diversity is based around the bottom 25%.
And that competitive players will gravitate towards the top 4 archetypes.

I'm not complaining. (you guys are typical men. you only speak when you want to "fix something") I'm trying to have a dialogue here. lol

Well, you see why people want to "fix something", when you post contradicting things like "rogue too good vs. competitive players just play the top 4", don't you?

If you are looking for opinions on the diversity of the format: To me, modern is interesting, as I can play several decks I like (competitively). Yes, sometimes my euphoria takes a step back, when I get stripped of recently build decks with a ban (curse you, Sunrise and Seething Song bans!), but it wasn't bad for the format. PTQ season will show, how dominant Twin and Pod really are. I just hope Wizards achieves balance/to create new archetypes by creating new cards/unbanning rather than stripping away some tools.

On FNM level you get away with nearly everything anyway, but if it comes to PTQ+ events, you have to be prepared AND play a deck which is good in the field. This isn't different in any other format, though.

[JPoJohnson]

Well, you see why people want to "fix something", when you post contradicting things like "rogue too good vs. competitive players just play the top 4", don't you?

If you are looking for opinions on the diversity of the format: To me, modern is interesting, as I can play several decks I like (competitively). Yes, sometimes my euphoria takes a step back, when I get stripped of recently build decks with a ban (curse you, Sunrise and Seething Song bans!), but it wasn't bad for the format. PTQ season will show, how dominant Twin and Pod really are. I just hope Wizards achieves balance/to create new archetypes by creating new cards/unbanning rather than stripping away some tools.

On FNM level you get away with nearly everything anyway, but if it comes to PTQ+ events, you have to be prepared AND play a deck which is good in the field. This isn't different in any other format, though.

Agree, I don't think Second Sunrise or Seething Song were bans that were truly necessary... The respective decks that they were played in weren't hard to work with or against.

[Lord Seth]

lol, it sounded better in my head.

What I mean, is that Modern rewards rogue strategies because the format isn't as tight as legacy where the first few turns are so critical.

re: the Twin variants.

I agree that the decks play differently, same with pod. But in terms how how you play against them from a sideboard perspective its pretty similar. You want to draw your hate against those decks. It still feels all the same when its EOT exarch, untap twin regardless of flavor.

But by this logic you might as well argue that High Tide and ANT are the same deck because how you play against them from a sideboard perspective is similar, you want to draw your hate against both, and "it still feels the same when your opponent casts a whole lot of spells in one turn and then kills you with their final spell." Are you going to start grouping High Tide in with ANT?

Again, "Control Twin" has far more in common with the American Control deck than it does with UR Splinter Twin, so grouping them together is completely disingenuous. Kiki Pod and Melira Pod are a little closer, but again you might as well claim that UR Delver and RUG Delver are the same basic deck when they obviously aren't.

Agree, I don't think Second Sunrise or Seething Song were bans that were truly necessary... The respective decks that they were played in weren't hard to work with or against.

Considering Storm is still decent and can still sometimes win on turn 3 even without Seething Song, the Seething Song ban may not have been that unnecessary. But that point can at least be argued. However, the argument advanced makes no sense in regards to Second Sunrise. Second Sunrise wasn't banned because Eggs was too powerful; it was banned because Eggs made tournaments take hours longer to complete.

It's kind of like arguing Shahrazad should be unbanned because it's not that powerful a card. Power is not why it's banned.

[JDK]

Agree, I don't think Second Sunrise or Seething Song were bans that were truly necessary... The respective decks that they were played in weren't hard to work with or against.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand the bannings, I was just not happy with those two. People picking up Second Sunrise without proper testing resulted in UWx Miracles-level draw rates and Storm was too potent in terms of "no top deck should consistently win before turn 4".

[Phoenix Ignition]

Considering Storm is still decent and can still sometimes win on turn 3 even without Seething Song, the Seething Song ban may not have been that unnecessary. But that point can at least be argued. However, the argument advanced makes no sense in regards to Second Sunrise. Second Sunrise wasn't banned because Eggs was too powerful; it was banned because Eggs made tournaments take hours longer to complete.

This is the best reason I've seen, whether they've said it or not. I would also say boredom is a huge factor, as that deck takes like 10 minutes on its combo turn to play out. I liked when someone just wrote "F6" on a piece of paper during the pro tour (I think) and slid it under the camera while their opponent went off. At least storm only needs to play ~20 spells in opposed to like 5 Second Sunrises and all of the artifact/land triggers involved in that going off. And I do realize that my boredom isn't necessarily a good reason to ban something, but I'm pretty sure that was the opinion of the majority of people, and at the point where a highly played deck takes up 90% of match time I think a lot of people get bored. At least online you could watch them tick down their play time and not both of you's play time.

As for format stagnancy I kind of agree that it's stale right now, but I also think there are a few good decks not being played as much as they should be. I wouldn't say the decks are off the radar, but definitely ones like Merfolk are under played. I think Pod may be a problem in that it takes the slot of great insta-kill and best midrange deck in the format due to it's pretty much unending card value, but there are definitely decks that can shut it down fairly easily.

Twin is pretty common too, but I think gets worse in tournaments the more people know exactly what to do against it. That's the case for most decks, but I think especially for twin since knowing how and when and why to kill their creature is extremely important.

[Lord Seth]

This is the best reason I've seen, whether they've said it or not.

They straight up said in the banning announcement that the reason Second Sunrise got banned was that Eggs' extremely long turns would make large tournaments take an hour or more longer than they would have otherwise.

Though really, the problem wasn't just that Eggs took a long time to win. If that was the case, it would have been banned earlier. The problem was that and the fact that Eggs took those ultra long turns and was a popular enough deck that enough people were playing it. If a handful of people in a big tournament are playing it, it's not so much a problem, so it'd be like High Tide in Legacy. And that's why Eggs escaped a ban for a while after Cifka's victory with it; people just weren't playing the deck enough for it to be a real problem.

But then Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song got banned, and suddenly Eggs was a whole lot better, leading to it being played far more often and even getting a Grand Prix win. Imagine if High Tide was a Tier 1 deck in Legacy and you can have a feeling for why Eggs was a problem.

[Tormod]

But by this logic you might as well argue that High Tide and ANT are the same deck because how you play against them from a sideboard perspective is similar, you want to draw your hate against both, and "it still feels the same when your opponent casts a whole lot of spells in one turn and then kills you with their final spell." Are you going to start grouping High Tide in with ANT?

Not exactly, maybe if ANT's plan was to BSZ me for a ton of cards I would agree with you. ANT combo's off a lot faster than Hightide which also feels different.

Since we're basing this around how I feel about it, that example doesn't work for me.

[Lord Seth]

The point is, you're lumping together two decks that really have rather little in common (I'll restate it yet again: "Control Twin" has far, far more in common with American Control than it does with Tempo Twin) just so you can artificially inflate your "big 4" percentage.

[Tormod]

The point is, you're lumping together two decks that really have rather little in common (I'll restate it yet again: "Control Twin" has far, far more in common with American Control than it does with Tempo Twin) just so you can artificially inflate your "big 4" percentage.

Sure I can, if you look at mtg goldfish they do exactly that.

I'm not disagreeing with you control twin has lots in common with american control, but its still a twin deck.

[Arsenal]

Are you talking about this? http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13662&iddeck=100360

Because that deck is essentially UWR Control with Kiki-Jiki in there to threaten a combo kill, but can also just copy Wall of Omens for free cantripping value.

[Tormod]

Are you talking about this? http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13662&iddeck=100360

Because that deck is essentially UWR Control with Kiki-Jiki in there to threaten a combo kill, but can also just copy Wall of Omens for free cantripping value.

That's the Shawn Maclaren Resto Kiki deck. No I'm not talking about that. Maybe Seth?

[Lord Seth]

That's the Shawn Maclaren Resto Kiki deck. No I'm not talking about that. Maybe Seth?

Well then, after I said "I think you're talking about..." why did you not say "no, that isn't what I'm talking about" instead of leaving that hanging and leaving me with the impression that you were referring to that deck? Because now I'm sure what you're talking about. If you are talking about the (not particularly popular) "American Twin" deck, then...

Sure I can, if you look at mtg goldfish they do exactly that.

Actually, as far as I can tell it classifies American Twin as UWR Control, like here and here. So your cited source actually disagrees with you.

I'm not disagreeing with you control twin has lots in common with american control, but its still a twin deck.

And is still distinct enough from Tempo Twin that lumping them together is still just artificially inflating your percentage. It's like saying UR Stiflenought is "still a Delver deck" and putting it in with RUG Delver.

[Timber]

Yay, ANOTHER Modern thread hijacked by whining about the Second Sunrise banning. Please stop.

Back to the original thread topic: no, I'm not disappointed. Competitive Magic will always gravitate towards the best 4 or 5 decks, regardless of format. Standard had Jund, Reanimator, and Aristocrats variants last season and has mono black, Jund Monsters, and UW Control this season. Modern has Twin, Pod, UWR Control and Affinity. Legacy has Stoneforge decks and Show and Tell.

I've seen a pretty good variety of decks in my short time in Modern, but I think Kibler's article today touches on two points that shed light on the reason that eternal formats feel, or can actually get, stale:

First: "A big part of that is because of the on-again, off-again competitive events in the format. With only brief windows during which Modern is relevant to most players throughout the year, it doesn't get explored nearly as thoroughly as a format like Standard or even Legacy."

Second: "In fact, the price of many cards in Modern also makes it so this is the only way many players can actually participate in the format at all. Sure, they might want to try out a new deck idea... but when they've already invested hundreds or even thousands of dollars into the fetchlands and other expensive staples that it takes to build a deck like Birthing Pod or Splinter Twin, it's going to take a lot to get them to switch to something else." http://www.starcitygames.com/article...onest-Man.html

I don't want to be a hypocrite and whine about card prices, but I do think that manabase prices restrict format diversity.

I've given up on the utopian idea that competitive formats will have more than 8 or 9 consistent winning decks where 3 or 4 make up 90% of any given tournament. Maybe in the 1990s you could show up with an unknown brew and top 8 a major tournament. I think that dream is over.

[Tormod]

@ Seth,

Those 2 decks are anomalies under UWR Control, clearly they are twin decks. They have quite a number of cards (12+) dedicated to the combo such as full sets of twins and exarchs and some number of pestermites.

Its certainly not the resto control deck that splashes 3 kiki for CA and a combo finish.

[Lord Seth]

@ Seth,

Those 2 decks are anomalies under UWR Control, clearly they are twin decks. They have quite a number of cards (12+) dedicated to the combo such as full sets of twins and exarchs and some number of pestermites.

Its certainly not the resto control deck that splashes 3 kiki for CA and a combo finish.

But your defense was that MTG Goldfish put that deck under the Splinter Twin umbrella, which I showed they did not. You were the one that cited that source, not me.

And you still haven't offered any real defense for your lumping of Kiki Pod in with Melira Pod, when the "big 4" (Jund, Melira Pod, Splinter Twin, and Affinity) clearly differentiates between Melira Pod and Kiki Pod.

[Tormod]

But your defense was that MTG Goldfish put that deck under the Splinter Twin umbrella, which I showed they did not. You were the one that cited that source, not me.

And you still haven't offered any real defense for your lumping of Kiki Pod in with Melira Pod, when the "big 4" (Jund, Melira Pod, Splinter Twin, and Affinity) clearly differentiates between Melira Pod and Kiki Pod.

Seth,

Where does it show any splinter twin? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8961

Combing over deck list to find some odd examples to prove a point is a little "too much".

[Lord Seth]

Seth,

Where does it show any splinter twin? http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/8961

Why should it show any Splinter Twin? All that page does is list the most commonly played cards in the deck. Whether or not it has Splinter Twin listed is irrelevant, because all it shows is it isn't played that much. Which adds up, considering American Twin is not particularly popular; I actually had to search a bit to find the specific decks I did discover.

Combing over deck list to find some odd examples to prove a point is a little "too much".

It's not "odd examples." With considerable consistency, MTG Goldfish puts all of the American Twin decks under American Control; the reason I only listed a few is because, again, the deck isn't that popular and for that reason there were only a few recent examples of it. Why don't you point me to the UWR decks that are listed under the umbrella of UR Splinter Twin then on that site, because you're the one who made that claim in the first place?

[Tormod]

OK Seth you win.

Is that what you want to hear? Its like arguing with my wife lol.

[Qweerios]

I picked up Modern about 8 months ago. I have been playing staple decks as well as many spicy brews in a competitive metagame where I get to play 4-6 rounds against powerful decks piloted by all sorts of players on the "skill scales". Most successful brews I encounter and brew myself tend to be Delver, Midrange, and Control decks because the combo route seems to be the most developed one as if a great combo race had taken place when the format was invented.

What makes modern so un-appealing with regards to the metagame IMO is the lack of manipulation. When all the manipulation you get is Serum Visions, Pod, and Chords of Calling, the format's top decks quickly become cyclical where a certain archetype will prey on another at the cost of many more matchups than it should. The reason for this cycle is the fact that nobody can dedicate enough SB space to combat enough of the format's contenders.