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Thread: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

  1. #21
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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    Hell, it even has Awesome so if it's crappy you can just pitch it to Force.
    No card's justification should ever include "worst case you pitch it to Force". That's the lowest of the low in terms of cop-outs. On par with "discard it to Liliana" or whatever shitty plan exists at the time. I know this was at the bottom of your post and meant as a complete aside, but the truth is this reasoning should never even be on the table at all.

    If you want to jam four copies of True-Name Nemesis in everything from BUG to Death and Taxes, by all means feel free to do so. But just remember that there's a reason it's only played in RWU, Stoneblade, and Merfolk, and remember that we look upon you with utter disdain every time you zealously bitch about irrelevant cards.

  2. #22
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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GenghisTom View Post
    Tsumiband seems like the only sensible frequent poster on here.
    Do you drink? I want to buy you a beverage.

    The truth of the matter is, Legacy players tend to be just as interested in new tech as any other player, because even the greyest of greybeards still wants to learn new lines of play that can't be fostered via old cards. A new mechanic, a different way of controlling the board or an alternative route to a Hyper Combo Finish - all these still have appeal.

    The problem is that the inability for Wizards to release sets which are "Strictly Good Cards In My Format" applies across the board. A set of Standard all-goods ruins Limited. Printing against Legacy turns Standard into an awkward zone of cards that have ties to a format outside itself -- like, really guys, how many Counterbalances and Abrupt Decays do you think a format can have before it fails to interact with its own damn self? AD was a masterful wedge-in that can't really be redone unless the idea of spamming the CMC angle is appealing to everyone -- and by the time Wizards does something often enough to keyword it, it's instantly flagged as Unnecessary Fluffness by said community. "This ability word horse-assing has gotta go; anyone remember the days when cards just had words on them that said what they actually did and didn't have bullet points or "battlefield" on them? Where's my Ben-Gay, I can't hardly shuffle without muh ointment... think it's gonna rain soon, these old bo-o-o-ones...."

    So Legacy is hard to build against while also selling Standard, and many people have difficulty accepting that, so they rail a lot. You tend to see the old "why I could design a Standard that makes Legacy happy blah blah blah", and while that isn't indicative of a logical fallacy in the argument I'd still *love* to see this magical wonderland of Standard cards that feed new Legacy decks. I'm not talking about a 3-card post outside the Shitty Card Creation thread, I mean like -- show me your 750 card block that has a reasonable Standard/Limited environment that also drops these cascades of new Legacy decks into existence. Do it. Seriously. It would be a literal joy to see this refreshing take on card design. At the end of the day, that argument holds no more weight than insisting you can coach better than some asshat making bad calls in the NFL.
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    Creature type - 'Fuck you mooooooom'
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    EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    So Legacy is hard to build against while also selling Standard, and many people have difficulty accepting that, so they rail a lot. You tend to see the old "why I could design a Standard that makes Legacy happy blah blah blah", and while that isn't indicative of a logical fallacy in the argument I'd still *love* to see this magical wonderland of Standard cards that feed new Legacy decks. I'm not talking about a 3-card post outside the Shitty Card Creation thread, I mean like -- show me your 750 card block that has a reasonable Standard/Limited environment that also drops these cascades of new Legacy decks into existence. Do it. Seriously. It would be a literal joy to see this refreshing take on card design. At the end of the day, that argument holds no more weight than insisting you can coach better than some asshat making bad calls in the NFL.
    This is a really good point. It's been made before, but I'd actually like to expand on it and go so far as to say that the cards that Legacy needs the most - like new cards for Storm, or stack interaction outside of blue - are the least likely to see print in a Standard-legal set. We've gotten some (potentially) neat new cards already in Treasure Cruise and the Delve two-card Impulse. Is part of their appeal that they're blue? Of course, but that shouldn't surprise anyone because blue cards are more likely to have a home, and more likely to do Legacy-relevant things like draw cards.

    I'm actually considering playing Khans Standard, though largely because of the tiny outside chance that Eidolon of Blossoms could enable an Enchantress strategy...and because I have Onslaught fetches and format staples like Thoughtseize already.

  4. #24
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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    I mean like -- show me your 750 card block that has a reasonable Standard/Limited environment that also drops these cascades of new Legacy decks into existence. Do it. Seriously.
    Blocks are only going to be about 430 cards now. And 20 of those are basic lands... so that's totally doable.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Do you drink? I want to buy you a beverage.
    You can Fedex me a shot of Hakushu 12.

    Alright, I'm complaining of people complaining. Guilty as charged. I'm just a bit tired of spoiler season coming around and reading the same gripes every time about this and that when I want to support Wizards for supporting my hobby (I'm mean addiction, not hobby).

    Having said that, I have a few gripes of my own. Perhaps my post was subconsciously directed inward. I'm really sick of cards not having actual drawbacks anymore. Every single card is a good + good + good, oh... hmm we're missing a drawback... so let's just put that in the mana cost. Mana cost is not a drawback, though strictly speaking it IS a drawback - it's just the default drawback design should start from. Life loss, card disadvantage, casting restrictions (not including mana cost), spells that effect all players including the caster, etc, are drawbacks.

    Not tapping (pun) into this design space, simply because it might scare off new players, is really limiting when it comes to deck creation. Threshold was great because the card is likely weak until to build it into a deck that reaches threshold easily, then it becomes strong (see: Werebear). Metalcraft is also great (see: Mox Opal). Abyssal Persecutor had a pretty savage drawback but decks built around it did okay in standard at the time.

    When reading the current KTK spoiler, every card costs a billion mana and has some portion of Akroma's Memorial slapped onto it. This kinda of card design results in a 'good stuff' meta where you basically just choose your favorite color and add all the best cards from that color. Legacy is taking on this shade as well, though miles more diverse than any standard has ever been (that's why it's still the best format), I wouldn't mind if Wizards rattled our cage with a couple bans/unbans/new cards.

    What can I say, I like change. But I also like a format that rewards skill over luck. I just hate having to play the same 20/60 cards for years on end. Fuck it, I'm going mono black pox then next SCG Seattle. Everybody loses their hand and nobody gets to play.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    I don't really expect many Legacy playables, much less staples from standard sets. I think WotC has mostly done a good job of throwing some really good cards for eternal formats into stuff like Commander and Planechase. TNN is really dumb but we also got Deluge, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm, and a handful of other fringe playables.

    Of course, even though I don't expect much from the Standard sets, and don't even play the format, it doesn't stop me from hating some of the design choices. Mostly the blurring of card types with shit like colored mana symbols in Artifacts and Enchantment-errything.

    I've also felt like they could ease off on new abilities or keywords since like...Tempest. It's just a needless increase in complexity when something barely gets fleshed out, then tossed only to reappear in a slightly different form a couple years later.

    Oh, and I'll never agree with the introduction of Planeswalker as a card type.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I don't really expect many Legacy playables, much less staples from standard sets. I think WotC has mostly done a good job of throwing some really good cards for eternal formats into stuff like Commander and Planechase. TNN is really dumb but we also got Deluge, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Scavenging Ooze, Flusterstorm, and a handful of other fringe playables.

    Of course, even though I don't expect much from the Standard sets, and don't even play the format, it doesn't stop me from hating some of the design choices. Mostly the blurring of card types with shit like colored mana symbols in Artifacts and Enchantment-errything.

    I've also felt like they could ease off on new abilities or keywords since like...Tempest. It's just a needless increase in complexity when something barely gets fleshed out, then tossed only to reappear in a slightly different form a couple years later.

    Oh, and I'll never agree with the introduction of Planeswalker as a card type.
    This should be carved into the rock.

    From bottom to top:
    If only the PWs were there from the very beginning, but even compared to equipment, they're so much off I don't even. Also, the rules ballast and all that stuff, moreover I dislike how they became a center of all MtG speaking of flavour. I hate them wholeheartedly. Aaand... where's my elegant and strict game with a set of six (or IDK how many) card types? Shall we bring back interrupts? Or the sorcery-instants of Portal?
    ...which leads us to colored artifacts. I lack words.
    The abilities and keywords are mostly useless and add complexity where there's no need for one. Imho there could be like three quarters of them discarded and no one would ever notice. But maybe it's just me and my nostalgia again. Oh, I miss you, pre-Alliances, all the card-by-card basis sets of old.
    Strangely enooguh, I'm not insulted by the enchantment creatures, in fact I like them a little bit. The first one (the white flying wutnot) was pretty funny. But they're kinda needless.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Oh, and I'll never agree with the introduction of Planeswalker as a card type.
    I agree with everything you've said except the line I quoted.

    I also dislike how all creatures appear to only have 'up-sides'.
    Leviathan -- Phyrexian Dreadnought -- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

    Three creatures from different time periods in Magic history.
    Each was the big monster in its set. Dreadnought is the only one that feels well designed from a 'good, but with drawback' perspective. Leviathan is fine from a design perspective, but the drawbacks are too severe to make it a playable card.

    Even if you are only judging from a flavor point-of-view, Emrakul is terrible design! So the most powerful being in the multiverse, capable of annihilating planes from existence, is completely harmless to the Planeswalker that summons him... Yeah, right.

    Good design creates a card you want to play more than anything, but requires you to find a synergy or trick to make that happen in a beneficial or neutral manner (No, Show and Tell doesn't count!!).


    Edit - In defense of Planeswalkers:
    Planeswalkers have been the focal point (or at least involved... right? I don't have extensive knowledge of the storyline in Dominaria) since Magic had a cohesive style. Probably around Alliances or so as the color-pie was starting to mean something. At the time they could NOT be put onto a card because they were uber-powerful beings.

    Years passed and the plot allowed Wizards to change the amount of power these beings were capable of. They made mistakes along the way, but most are pretty fair cards. The only argument against Planeswalkers that I agree with is that they were added as a card type late in the history of the game. That makes them slightly stronger than they should be for the first few years of their existance. BUT as time goes on and cards are printed specifically to interact with them, they become more and more managable.

    2nd Edit - Enchantment Errrything:
    This was a really stupid choice... It just further blurs the line between Enchantment and Artifact. What is the difference between the two? How does WotC decide which type to make a card? A coin-flip??

    An artifact is an object with special powers. An enchantment is a spell with a lasting effect as long as the enchantment is in place. (these are my loose definitions from what I've picked up from fantasy stuff)
    So WTF is Hammer of Purphoros? It's an object with a lasting effect AND special powers. Oh it also makes dudes that have no special powers or lasting effects but they are artifacts and enchantments too because FLAVOR!!!

  9. #29

    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    I thought planeswalkers were a great addition to the game.

    Don't really see the issue with colored artifacts either.

  10. #30

    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    The problem is that the inability for Wizards to release sets which are "Strictly Good Cards In My Format" applies across the board. A set of Standard all-goods ruins Limited. Printing against Legacy turns Standard into an awkward zone of cards that have ties to a format outside itself -- like, really guys, how many Counterbalances and Abrupt Decays do you think a format can have before it fails to interact with its own damn self? AD was a masterful wedge-in that can't really be redone unless the idea of spamming the CMC angle is appealing to everyone -- and by the time Wizards does something often enough to keyword it, it's instantly flagged as Unnecessary Fluffness by said community. "This ability word horse-assing has gotta go; anyone remember the days when cards just had words on them that said what they actually did and didn't have bullet points or "battlefield" on them? Where's my Ben-Gay, I can't hardly shuffle without muh ointment... think it's gonna rain soon, these old bo-o-o-ones...."
    Please, please keep doing this.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    I thought planeswalkers were a great addition to the game.

    Don't really see the issue with colored artifacts either.
    I mostly hate them from a flavor perspective. All the old rulebooks and promotional stuff used to make a big deal of "YOU are a Planeswalker!". Now they're back to Weatherlight-style main characters, except they're Planeswalkers too? Bitch, I have a library! You can do four things. We are not equals.

    I guess if they had called them Familiars or something it wouldn't bother me as much. Personally though, I liked when storyline characters were just legendary creatures. It made them feel like they were still pawns in your scheme, even if WotC was trying to push some cliched story along with them. And they came and went.

    Now you just see Jace or Chandra in every other set and it's like seeing someone from work at the grocery store. At first it's fine, you make some small talk, you part ways. Then you see them again. And again. And again. Someone makes a bad joke. Eventually you just check out without half the shit you came to get because THIS IS MY REAL LIFE! YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HERE AND YOU'RE RUINING EVERYTHING^!%#$^!%#!!
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I mostly hate them from a flavor perspective. All the old rulebooks and promotional stuff used to make a big deal of "YOU are a Planeswalker!". Now they're back to Weatherlight-style main characters, except they're Planeswalkers too? Bitch, I have a library! You can do four things. We are not equals.

    I guess if they had called them Familiars or something it wouldn't bother me as much. Personally though, I liked when storyline characters were just legendary creatures. It made them feel like they were still pawns in your scheme, even if WotC was trying to push some cliched story along with them. And they came and went.

    Now you just see Jace or Chandra in every other set and it's like seeing someone from work at the grocery store. At first it's fine, you make some small talk, you part ways. Then you see them again. And again. And again. Someone makes a bad joke. Eventually you just check out without half the shit you came to get because THIS IS MY REAL LIFE! YOU AREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE HERE AND YOU'RE RUINING EVERYTHING^!%#$^!%#!!
    Grumble Grumble

    Bring back Enchant Worlds!

    Phasing needs to be in every set!

    Banding is awesome!




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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    An artifact is an object with special powers. An enchantment is a spell with a lasting effect as long as the enchantment is in place. (these are my loose definitions from what I've picked up from fantasy stuff)
    So WTF is Hammer of Purphoros? It's an object with a lasting effect AND special powers. Oh it also makes dudes that have no special powers or lasting effects but they are artifacts and enchantments too because FLAVOR!!!
    It's gimmicks in lieu of flavor, and it's been that way for a long time. You want flavor, look at The Dark or Legends.

    I heard a guy at a shop introducing some kids to Magic last weekend, and he started off with that "You are a planeswalker" nonsense. I cringed.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Hello,

    There is one thing I donīt understand. Why you complain about the existence of the Planeswalker type? For me it is not a problem because it is easy explained why they are in your deck.

    If our Universe is not fully explored why should the multiverse of Magic should be?
    So if we state that it isnīt fully explored than we can assume the existence of an infinite number of planeswalkers.
    If we can assume that a really large number of planeswalkers exists why it is a problem to have one as your ally?

    You can be a planeswalker and have one as your ally without any problem. I see that it breaks up with the god complex
    Thoughts you might have because now you see that even planeswalkers are beatable but look it that way Jace is a mighty
    Planeswalker but he is weaker than you because you can summon him at will.

    so you are still a planeswalker you are still nearly unbeatable you just learned a new trick which you use to enslave
    weaker planeswalker.

    Best regards Teveshszat

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    It's gimmicks in lieu of flavor, and it's been that way for a long time. You want flavor, look at The Dark or Legends.

    I heard a guy at a shop introducing some kids to Magic last weekend, and he started off with that "You are a planeswalker" nonsense. I cringed.
    Could have been worse, he could have started with "HERE YOU RULE!!!"
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  16. #36
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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Teveshszat View Post
    Thoughts you might have because now you see that even planeswalkers are beatable but look it that way Jace is a mighty
    Planeswalker but he is weaker than you because you can summon him at will.

    so you are still a planeswalker you are still nearly unbeatable you just learned a new trick which you use to enslave
    weaker planeswalker.
    Am I the only one who thinks this concept sounds a bit fucking awkward?
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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    I dislike PWs because of two things.

    First, they're glued in the game and they stick out like sore thumb. This is not that blatantly obvious if you started in post-Lorwyn times, or if you got used to them, but I still dislike them for this reason.
    Second, they usurp lots of the flavour and deal it in the exact way how adolescent movies work: "..and then Blade jumps out of the window, he's pretty cool in cool glasses, he tooks sword and man, he just goes whoa!"

    Take for example City of Traitors flavour text (btw, that card also got an brilliant art):
    "While we fought, the il surrendered."
    —Oracle en-Vec
    Wow! Maybe it' just me, but I find it amazing. It delivers... I don't exactly know how to tell it, but there's something deep, something epic about this short sentence. The laconic message, moreover one that leaves freedom for your own fantasy. The whole monstrosity of the treason, the fact of defeat, there can be anything. Really, this is moving...

    And what do we have on the other kind of spectrum? What we may offer to a usual 17 y/o onanist? What about some cool Liliana of Boobies with some cool and tough quote.
    Bah.

    Yeah, of course, there are lots of silly stuff in the old cards, and there are lots of new ones with good flavour. And it's not the most important of all... Just saying

  18. #38

    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs View Post
    Am I the only one who thinks this concept sounds a bit fucking awkward?
    I think flavor wise it is more along the lines of "Hey bro, I got some mana, wanna be bffs?" and when he loses all loyalty he just goes "Well f- this, youre on your own bud."

    The change that really bothers me flavor wise is both players having the same legend, it just doesn't make any sense.

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    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Hello,

    yes the new version of the Legend Rules is not really cool.

    But what is akward on the situation with the planeswalkers. I mean first most of them are Insane and if you are one of them the chances are high that you are evil, corrupted by your power, insane, egoistic or soemthing in between.
    If we agree on that and this should be easy because it allready was the case in the Ice Age and when Urza became a Planeswalker.

    So for people who can chracterized as above enslaving people and let them work for your goal is just logic and convinient because I highly doubt
    that they care for their Lifes (close friends excluded).
    We also are doing this allready because summoning creatures is nothing else than forcefuly pull them out of their world and let them die for your goal
    defeating another Planeswalker.

    So if you find this situation akward you never look deep enough into Magic fluff.

    And yes I still like to be a planeswalker.

    Best Regards Teveshszat

  20. #40

    Re: Catch-All Recent Card Design Sucks Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I think flavor wise it is more along the lines of "Hey bro, I got some mana, wanna be bffs?" and when he loses all loyalty he just goes "Well f- this, youre on your own bud."

    The change that really bothers me flavor wise is both players having the same legend, it just doesn't make any sense.
    I don't see how it makes any less sense than how the opponent summoning another will somehow make them both drop dead on the spot.

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