[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

Yes I do against AD, if I can. I have no creature outside ooze and Drs that dies to deed or ad (I have witnessed but come on her role here is not to be a vanilla 2/1).
Against miracles eldrazi etc I just play it and use it as a life insurance.

I'm starting to zero in on why you have so much trouble with certain MUs.

[rubblekill]

I'm starting to zero in on why you have so much trouble with certain MUs.

Getting the deed decayed is a feelsbad moment in my opinion. And you are forming a bad idea, I don't love the shard less mu not because of goyfs but because of the pw, which deed doesn't kill any ways. There's no connection between the two topic as you are implying.
Having 5-6 mana to wipe their board (in the shard less mu) as soon as deed hits the battlefield is usually not a problem, considering my first objective is to land and trigger an explorer in that matchup. Don't forget that deed is (for me) a one sided wrath: I can land a rhino the turn before and then wrath them and attack with rhino the following turn. This very line has won me the game countless times in that matchup. When I lose against them is only because of an unanswered jace or liliana.

[Echelon]

Consider me a honey badger.

[Bobmans]

Consider me a honey badger.

[Tom4ik]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

I also dont like playing Drs in the deck either. If ppl want to play 1 as a target for certain matchups fine but I still do not think that it needs to be played.

Anyway, play whatever cards you want. I am sure I will continue to see reports of "this one time courser and top just drew me so many cards" when in reality actual legacy cards would have done the same thing and been better more of the time.

Honestly what would be the most helpful for this thread is to stop saying the skill level of the deck is so high (its not) and to start looking at what cards actually mattered in the wins vs losses. Take delver, we have vet and deed for that matchup. You dont need anything else besides decays and gsz to accomplish that plan.

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

[Echelon]

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

Also, other should feel free to chime in. It's easier to spot anothers' mistakes than it is to spot your own.

I'm attending a monthly on april 16th. I volunteer as tribute!

[rubblekill]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

This whole conversation started because of this comment

Everything you play for 3 mana or less dies to pretty much everything, so how is that an argument? Following your logic we should just skip on the DRS and Scooze too.

And to that I have replied that

A gsz for drs or ooze will be game changing and a life saver. 4 mana for a card that's useless for at least 2 turns is a waste of one of the best card in the deck (gsz).

So the comparing part was justified by Echelon's post, nobody here thinks that Ooze or Courser are cards that are fighting to fill the same spot in the deck.

And I think that the skill level of this deck is indeed high because it requires to know how to sequence our threats and how to play cabal therapy very well: that's one of the most skill-testing card ever printed in my opinion, and this deck revolves basically around it.

[Ralf]

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

Basically, this is what I am saying for AGES...

+1.

[Ricardio]

Im gone, asleep, and this place devolves into a petty dispute? C'mon ladies and gentlemen. We are the greatest thread for a reason.

Nic fit is a deck that allows for creativity and imagination. A discussion is fine but don't let it devolve into a debate over who is wrong and why they are.

Each player is going to play the way they feel is best for them and they playstyle and the same is true about how they construct their list.

I don't fault other pilots for playing less removal or jamming bigger pet threats. I hope they do well and show me they were right so I can try new things that aren't anal.

I started a league last night with Rhino fit and beat DnT 2-0. I won game 1 handly and then g2 I should not have won but my opponent was very inexperienced with the deck and I was able to capitalize on that. I am hoping to rattle off another 5-0 to keep nic fit up there so we can continue to get more minds working on what ive come to find is one of the most entertaining and manipulatible archetypes.

Cheers!

[Jain_Mor]

I'm currently 25-15 in League matches, 58/39 in games, with my SFM build and have been taken notes on all my matches. I can honestly say that a lot of my losses come from misplays and mistakes in the MTGO client (surgical extraction is really hard to resolve, and I have a habit of clicking the wrong basics with Vet explorer and not realising..)

I'm also not a fan of courser or nissa. I always run scooze, deathrite shaman usually gets a slot and I nearly always play maindeck teeg.

I'm still struggling against miracles, 3-8 in games (hexproof creature + equipment usually getting me the wins), 0-4 in matches. I haven't tried adding the fourth colour for Slaughter games yet, but I'm gradually running out of options (Abeyance, is my last hope I think)

I'm 4-6 against Elves in games, 1-3 in matches. Lost my 5th match at 4-0 one time to it. Their two different angles of attack, and ability to reload after a sweeper with glimpse or just NO with a few creatures make it rough in my experience.

I'm 6-5 in games against Shardless, 3-2 in matches. Here Deed and Meren are usually the MVPs

I'm 50/50 against most combo decks, Reanimator: 5-5, 2-2, Sneak and Show 3-3, 1-1, Storm 5-3, 2-1, Belcher 1-2, 0-1.
My game plan here is heavy T1 discard (4 therapy and 3TS) coupled with teeg and surgical extractions

And I'm favoured against Delver decks and other random creature decks. Which isnt suprising. I've settled on 3 path (the number of wins I've had because this wasn't stp is significant) 3 decay and 3 deed as my removal suite. I've found having a maindeck 3 cmc removal spell just because some decks play some Jace isn't an effecient use of a slot. But I'm open to being wrong.

What's suprising is being 50/50 against combo, (I guess my plan is working considering they are strongest G1), losing to elves and being crushed by miracles haha. I definitely had higher percentages agains them in paper magic in Japan, but that might have been before Mentor... Also online Miracles players might just be better.

So now i'm trying a build without SFM to see if I can still keep my wins against the midrange and creature decks (where the equipment often shuts the door quickly) while adding some more maindeck discard (to keep my curve low and interactive against combo and miracles) leaving some slots in the sideboard for some cheaper sweepers against elves and more haymakers for miracles.

Probably post another update in another month.

[rubblekill]

I wouldn't call it a "petty dispute", but an occasion to discuss our own play styles. You all should've commented too on the topic to express your opinion. I don't really get hurt if you have a different opinion, heck I am waiting to be proved wrong to improve myself. That's what it matters to me. I am used to some of Echelon's provocative answers, but I think both of us were discussing normally today? I know I was.

[crush]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

I also dont like playing Drs in the deck either. If ppl want to play 1 as a target for certain matchups fine but I still do not think that it needs to be played.

..

Hey,

I play both Courser and DRS, both as a singleton. I wouldn't remove the 1 of DRS, he just covers too many roles to not have a singleton copy in the MD. Courser on the other hand is debatable. I find him the weakest link in my list, but calling him garbage is a bit too much. He is there because he covers a very specific role - low mana card advantage engine which helps you get to late game (mostly when triggering explorers is not an option and/or you need a blocker vs bolt decks). The key point here is that he is a low CMC green creature. If you know any other creature which covers the role better then please let us know.

Like you said, Scooze shines late game when you have plenty of mana to work with - tapping out to play a Scooze is always a bad idea.

[Bobmans]

Im gone, asleep, and this place devolves into a petty dispute? C'mon ladies and gentlemen. We are the greatest thread for a reason.

Nic fit is a deck that allows for creativity and imagination. A discussion is fine but don't let it devolve into a debate over who is wrong and why they are.

Each player is going to play the way they feel is best for them and they playstyle and the same is true about how they construct their list.

I don't fault other pilots for playing less removal or jamming bigger pet threats. I hope they do well and show me they were right so I can try new things that aren't anal.

I started a league last night with Rhino fit and beat DnT 2-0. I won game 1 handly and then g2 I should not have won but my opponent was very inexperienced with the deck and I was able to capitalize on that. I am hoping to rattle off another 5-0 to keep nic fit up there so we can continue to get more minds working on what ive come to find is one of the most entertaining and manipulatible archetypes.

Cheers!

Im gonna back this up.

The tension/atmosphere that currently exists is not what should be.

That said, Some tournament based report evaluation on the other hand is a good idea. Reflecting individual card perfomance to find out how they stand in the current state of the archetype. NicFit will always be a deck that could fit thousand cards, but perhaps some more details on each induvidual card would be nice to have. The thread does tend to circle around, the same questions, discussions and whatnot. We should either accept it or deal with it.

[rubblekill]

Im gonna back this up.

The tension/atmosphere that currently exists is not what should be.

That said, Some tournament based report evaluation on the other hand is a good idea. Reflecting individual card perfomance to find out how they stand in the current state of the archetype. NicFit will always be a deck that could fit thousand cards, but perhaps some more details on each induvidual card would be nice to have. The thread does tend to circle around, the same questions, discussions and whatnot. We should either accept it or deal with it.

Meh. I think you and Ricardio are exaggerating a little bit, read my last post above! We were discussing how to deed basing our logic on our real experience, you could/can express your thinking on that topic too!

[Ricardio]

@rubberkill: No exaggerated. Just stopping and pre-emptive anger. We want good vibes and vet triggers, no sadness.

In my experience:

SFM: Not my style for nic fit. I've tried it and been overwhelmingly disappointed by this artificer and her group of friends. #decktiledisfunction

Scooz: he is in my 75 forever #bae4life

Courser: Not very impressive, just a worse oracle imho. You only really want oracle in a deck like 8 post fit where playing 2 post in a turn is insane.

DRS: I cant stress enough what he is capable of. I play two because it feels about right. sometimes gsz = 1 is not vet but drs. having mb gy hate and a means to close out a game without attacking accompanied by rhino triggers makes life easier. Not to mention when they bring in needle and disfigure to deal with him. #narrowscardscantmeltnarrowbeams

Get em frog: He seems great and I anticipate he will fit some niche in legacy but I am not aware what he does for us. Seeing as a warped list would use him well, I cant tell if he is worth the 5 cmc investment. I will say he is interesting and I am excited for the potential he has. #brewongentlemen

Sorin, 6 cmc, no ult: His +1 is monsterous! His second ability kills jtms(see anal pain). His ult seems like I'd rather continue plussing him. I am exuberantly excited to test this sob. Hopefully he is what I wanted and more #squadgoals

I looked through most of the spoilers and was unimpressed albeit flavor wise, this set is a wet dream. #changingmypants

[sdematt]

@rubberkill: No exaggerated. Just stopping and pre-emptive anger. We want good vibes and vet triggers, no sadness.

In my experience:

SFM: Not my style for nic fit. I've tried it and been overwhelmingly disappointed by this artificer and her group of friends. #decktiledisfunction

Scooz: he is in my 75 forever #bae4life

Courser: Not very impressive, just a worse oracle imho. You only really want oracle in a deck like 8 post fit where playing 2 post in a turn is insane.

DRS: I cant stress enough what he is capable of. I play two because it feels about right. sometimes gsz = 1 is not vet but drs. having mb gy hate and a means to close out a game without attacking accompanied by rhino triggers makes life easier. Not to mention when they bring in needle and disfigure to deal with him. #narrowscardscantmeltnarrowbeams

Get em frog: He seems great and I anticipate he will fit some niche in legacy but I am not aware what he does for us. Seeing as a warped list would use him well, I cant tell if he is worth the 5 cmc investment. I will say he is interesting and I am excited for the potential he has. #brewongentlemen

Sorin, 6 cmc, no ult: His +1 is monsterous! His second ability kills jtms(see anal pain). His ult seems like I'd rather continue plussing him. I am exuberantly excited to test this sob. Hopefully he is what I wanted and more #squadgoals

I looked through most of the spoilers and was unimpressed albeit flavor wise, this set is a wet dream. #changingmypants

Ill be making a long post later today, but now Im driving for the day off. Ill post pics.

[Ricardio]

Ill be making a long post later today, but now Im driving for the day off. Ill post pics.

OH LORD! Pictures! I am excite.

[Tom4ik]

Don't make a big thing about "atmosphere" in an internet thread where most/all of connotation is lost. I for one think that people in this thread could use a bit of "harsh" reality about certain card choices. There is a difference between debating legit choices and just playing subpar cards.

- Discussing whether to play 0-1-2 Drs for example is fine. All of these are options that work within the deck and legacy in general.
- Discussing whether to play a 3 drop that has no value the turn it comes into play, takes multiple turns to do anything and even then needs additional help well it sits doing squat is just a symptom of Nic fit players thinking anything under the sun can be done just because we play vet.

Look, I love this deck. That doesnt mean I am not going to point out what I believe to be subpar choices. I doubt that my rational will change any minds but I do hope that breaking down games will show what cards are worth playing. I bet things like abzan charm, nissa, courser and the like will be shown to not be great.

[Deadinthestreet]

I don't post on here as much as I should for junk fit being my main deck at the moment, but I've taken it to card kingdom's weekly legacy for at least the past month and I played my first round last week on stream against eldrazi stompy and it def feels good having those big bodies in your deck to deal with these guys and also side boarded in glissa but never saw her. Best play of the game even though I lost during game two was blind therapy in him naming reality smasher a few turns into the game when I had nothing else to play, since that's their biggest creature I think and he only had like four cards in hand. And he already had one in play. I feel like this deck is in a good spot right now. Lots of matchups I haven't got to play yet but I'll start trying to do some tournament reports since I go to 25+ attendance weekly legacy

[pettdan]

I'm not sure I'm bringing much comments of value here but I feel like joining in and ventilating my thoughts. Also excuse me for my printing errors, this was tapped on a cell phone (celebrating the start of this Easter holiday in front of a warming fireplace).

@Courser:
I'm divided on this. When it works it's great, simultaneously letting you pull ahead of the opponent by continous landdrops and drawing relevant cards, seeing more cards too with an active top than you otherwise would. Life gain is a bonus and the body is relevant in some matchups (vs pyromancer, goblins, thalia..) but that's only side effects. In other words, when it's good it's a better Dark Confidant. Some of the most frustrating losses to me are the grindy games vs decks (usually blue) where the game state is even (=to your advantage) and you don't draw top or just see lands/discard for 3-4 turns and lose. Courser helps mitigate that risk, costing 1 slot only. Another situation where Courser shines: say you have to mulligan and start with 2-3 lands, maybe a top, a GSZ and a removal spell or similar. In these situations I want Courser since he allows me to regain the lost cards while also ensuring I draw some relevant spells. While also presenting a solid blocker and life gain to help you survive until you've gained the time you need to establish a favourable board position. What other single, GSZ-able card allows this and for 3 CMC? Of course he can be killed, but in above scenario you don't want to have to pay an extra mana (out of Decay range) since the major reason you need him is you're short on resources. He's not boltable, and for a Dark Confidant that's already pretty good.

When Courser is not good.. Is basically the same scenarios as above, but you don't see lands on top of your deck for several rounds. The disadvantage of a life gaining Confidant, it sometimes bricks.

I keep bringing him into and out of my lists, depending on how often I get disappointed and the list's mana curve.

@Miracles/Stoneforge: I also fight with this matchup (Miracles). I think I tend to make some mistakes which may cost me the game loss. Also I feel like my opponents tend to have some luck. I currently maindeck 1 SG and sideboard 2 SG's and 1 Tsunami; a while ago I tried 3 Tsunami and 2 SG's (Junk Rhino fit with 2 Baneslayers). I never draw it, or they FoW it, or I Slaughter Jace and they draw Entreat immediately, or I don't find top and draw all removal while dying to Jace. What I wanted to add is that when I was playing Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskull 1-2.5 years ago Batterskull usually kept good pressure on them. Perhaps it's time for me to try putting a Stoneforge and a BSK into a Rhino list. Problem is the Baneslayers have felt good and I like how they are relevant vs red decks, Delver, BUG decks, Misthollow Griffins (horrible matchup), Reality Smashers and even Griselbrands.

@Gitrog Monster: Have to test it, but it looks like more fun than good. Maybe it could be worth playing next to a Sigarda at the top end of the mana curve. It's a potential finisher by itself but in addition, once it's on the battlefield and your opponent is looking for a way to get rid of it you are likely to draw into a lot of threats and removal. The interaction with dredge cards is pretty good (esp the dredge land) but since we hardly play any dredge cards normally the concept is stretching the list quite a bit.. Keep on brewing!

Also I'll be playing at GP Prague this year and think I may be playing a fit list. Would be really nice to say hello to anyone else attending, I was too lazy at Lille last year.