How do we feel about Traverse the Ulvenwald? Sorry if this has been asked before but it seems like it could be OKAY. if you have delirium its basically the same as GSZ for any color and could help bring 1-of sun titan strategy back for recurring deeds to help take over games? Has anyone had much experience with trying it out? I don't feel like much shifting would have to be done to ensure delirium, things like running Nissa, Vastwood seer (does she count as both in the GY?) or even a 1-of courser of kruphix (for extra typing.) or even a super sweet one of eyeblight's end! (go tribal! Lol.) it would get you some sweet toolboxing with lands too for late game stuff - karakas being the only thing that REALLY comes to mind that you might wanna search up though...
It's not good enough. Zenith is gold because it can get you a Vet on turn two if you need to ramp, and still be a wincon or utility late game. Traverse does the latter (sometimes) but never does the former. There isn't enough benefit to mitigate how bad Traverse is early game.
If you want to find Sun Titan, just run Fierce Empath and Zenith for it that way.
BUG lists could mitigate those negatives very well. Easier to enable delirium thanks to Brainstorm and Baleful Strix, there is already less point in running GSZ, you have Brainstorm (as much as I loathe the card, it's good) to smooth out early land drops and lack of having Vet in the opener. As long as you have delirium, it is a vastly improved GSZ since it tutors any creature/land and basically costs the same, right?Originally Posted by Navsi
Maybe we just need a few more busted blue/black 3-4 cmc creature cards to really help make it pay off though.
eh, its still a land early which isn't awful. Obv vet is two and ramps, but its not completely inconsequential. and it gets better than GSZ late by allowing you to get a land if you need it or whatever creature will win you the game. Fierce Empath is cool, but is still gonna cost you 4 mana with GSZ. and there's TBH no reason you couldn't run like 3 GSZ and 2 Ulvenwald or something.
It's surprisingly difficult to turn on because Cabal Therapy (and if you still run too, GSZ) don't help your delirium count. Cards like Eternal Witness actively work against it too.
I'm trying it out in junk (rhino) fit. Running a 3/3 split with GSZ for now. Too early to draw any conclusions, but fetching a land is not bad. The deck needs to hit land drops to operate, especially vs delver decks, and this thing helps. My biggest problem with nicfit is usually dying to mana screw or at least to not being able to power out stuff in time. My goal is consistency. We will see.
As for late game, it allows you to fetch Sun Titan (I did add one to the list to see if it is worth it), but on the other hand, it also does not play well vs counterbalance and people will just counter the creature you're getting instead of this.
Was also thinking about adding Volrath's S. again (otherwise only good with Primeval Titan).
Consensus on Traverse so far, in a nutshell: A lot of potential, but it's probably too hard to turn on Delirium to be reliable. The late game benefits are obvious enough, but the biggest worry is that it doesn't do enough in the early game, where you'd really want it most (since we want to reach the mid/late game as quickly as possible).
That being said, I've been having some discussions with Brael and simulations he ran pointed out that we'd want to run a lot more lands than we currently do (upwards of 25 even, possibly). Considering that, Traverse could be viewed as a pseudo-land (looking back at the SE Fit approach) that turns into something good in the lategame. Only question that remains is how reliably can we turn Delirium on in the late game (i.e. past turn 4 or so)?
You'd need to run an enabler of some kind, like how standard BG Delirium is running Grapple with the Past at the moment. Tracker's Instincts is an older card that does something similar and might be better. The other large problem with Delirium is not just turning it on, but also KEEPING it on. This is Legacy. People run Rest in Peace. They run Deathrite Shaman. Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt; you name it, they run it. The biggest offender of these is probably Deathrite -- until and unless Deathrite gets banned, I don't see Delirium being realistic to consider, unfortunately.
I'm a bit slow acting, but after reading the above (which is an answer to a post I did) I was convinced to look (and proxy) seriously into this deck and, well, I'm now one of the cool kids.
Thanks!
Excellent point.
The best way to achieve Delirium is running artifacts, enchantments, and planeswalkers. All of these are things that Deathrite Shaman can't eat. Unless a deck is running a lot of artifacts, enchantments, and/or planeswalkers to begin with, Delirium isn't worth considering. Also, because it's so hard to turn on, your payoff card ought to win you the game. Something like Emrakul, the Promised End would be decent in a deck built around Delirium. Intuition would be another strong Delirium enabler. Postboard, though, you would then run the risk of graveyard hate coming in, so the deck would need all the cards to be useful on their own, and maybe the Delirium-based haymakers could get swapped out for more traditional finishers not reliant on the graveyard.
Well, I have some experience with Traverse in Modern. When it was printed until a couple weeks ago I was running a RUG Delver build that was pretty happy to fire Traverse off early for a land if needed and cash it in for good cards late if not. Traverse passes the same test GSZ passes in that it can be used for land which is mandatory for a toolbox effect in my opinion, but it doesn't assist with acceleration which makes it a little worse.
I found that turning on Delirium in Modern was hard enough despite RUG Delver being the perfect deck to do so. I think it's even harder in this deck. Most people have looked at Baleful Strix as the enabler but I would also suggest Architect of Will and probably even Shardless Agent. The big problem from where I'm sitting lies in keeping Delirium turned on. I'm confident that it will eventually find it's way into a deck but I don't think we have all the necessary tools yet.
@Arianrhod & Brael: Good points!
So... Traverse the Ulvenwald - The Danger Of Cool Things!
Well, I agree completely. However, I am testing Traverse as a way to assure I make all my land drops in turns 1-5. This ability is not turned off by DRS and the like.
The delirium part is the cherry on top. I only have a 1 off Sun Titan to fetch if needed, but the card is playable without Traverse.
I shaved a land (down to 21) to fit 3 copies if Traverse. The card acts like land 22-24 with "creature cycling" if you are flooded. Fact is, that the matchup we will want the delirium part the most is Miracles, but then again since we board out Vers against them, we might end up fetching lands :-D
Edit: I also considered Grapple with the Past in its place. That card fills the same role, but it's easier to disrupt.
Hello All,
New Nic Fit (and Legacy) player here.
I was wondering, after seeing TWoo's Splendid Dredge deck in Modern, if a Jund Fit shell could support a Splendid Reclamation-Wish angle instead of the ScapeWish angle. Possible obvious cards:
Squandered Resources
Titania, Protector of Argoth
I did some testing of Splendid Reclamation, but it has a few problems. Most notably, even if you get to a point where you can kill people, a single DRS exiling Valakuts ruins your day.
The best way to make your land drops is SDT, and card advantage. That's why I use Bob and Courser plus the Tops, plus the ability to GSZ for mana sources. The basic land off of Traverse can be used in a pinch, but it's slow. Traverse can only replace your land drop, GSZ can give you another mana source in addition to letting you make a land drop so it's a bit more versatile.
Traverse can work in this situation but it's the sort of thing you should only be doing if you can't use GSZ.
I continue to be impressed with the value that can be gained from playing SDT with Courser. Are you playing Dryad Arbor?
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Have you seen this guy?
Daretti, ingenious iconoclast
I just note that it's works really good with Tireless Tracker (sac an hint to destroy a creature/artefact, so trigger +1/+1 of Tracker).
He has interesting abilities but overall he isn't quite impactful. I'm not sure if the punishing fit decks would have him. That kind of synergy is too clunky and doesn't seem worth it. I'd much rather draw off the clues than use them as fodder.
I took a 4 colour build to a tournament yesterday. Went 3-1-1 (went to time in the last round) and lost after the cut to the same player I lost to in the Swiss.
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
9 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Brainstorm
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Reclamation Sage
Round 1 - Burning Reanimator
I know what he's on, and win the die roll.
Game 1 I Therapy naming Entomb - he has one, and proceeds to untap and Gamble into LED, Petal, crack LED and Petal to flashback Unburial Rites on Griselbrand and draw 14 into Tendrils.
In: Surgical, Thoughtseize, Needle, Archmage
Out: Deeds, Decays, Jitte, Jace, Meren, 1 Strix. I want to keep the faster clocks and all his stuff has huge CMCs.
Game 2 I open with Deathrite, and Surgical in hand. He goes for turn one combo after using Unmask on Surgical, but his only fatty is Iona, who names white for the Path in my hand. I untapped and make a Strix, which stonewalls him for a while until I strip his hand and make some more guys. I think eventually he dies to an equipped Strix or something.
Game 3 I get Thoughtseized (taking Surgical) and Thoughtseize back myself, seeing 2 lands, LED, Griselbrand, Unmask, Animate Dead. I take LED, thinking that an Unburial Rites topdeck would kill me through taking Animate Dead since he still has a discard outlet. Actually, he can get me anyway if he topdecks any black card by Unmask-ing himself to ditch Griselbrand, but fortunately he topdecks a nonblack card and I tear his hand apart with Therapy off a Vet, Zenith up a a Deathrite and beat him down.
Round 2 - RUG Delver
Game 1 he opens with a Mongoose, I make a Veteran which walls it off for a while. I make a second Veteran to match his Goyf, but he eventually drops and flips a Delver. I make a Strix, which gets bolted, and Meren, who eats Dismember. I get eaten by Delver.
In: Carpets, Archmage
Out: 3 Therapy - I don't need Therapies to kill Veteran here since my opponent will do so for me.
Game 2 he makes Mongoose to my Veteran, then a Tarmogoyf. I make a Deathrite, which gets Bolted. A second Goyf joins the party. He eventually kills Veteran with a Forked Bolt, and swings with two 3/4 Goyfs and a threshed Mongoose. I Path a Goyf, which he Forces, and I go to 9. I untap and Deed his board away. He makes another Mongoose which I match with Thragtusk, then let them trade and make Meren to rebuy Thratusk and he scoops.
Game 3 he doesn't have a threat early, so I make some Strixes (which get Ancient Grudged) and a Veteran to match the Goyf he gets. Witness rebuys Strix, I make a Batterskull (he stifles the Living Weapon) and I stick the BSK on one of my creatures and run away with the game.
Round 3 - Stoneforge Miracles
Game 1 my opponent fetches an early Batterskull with Stoneforge, and is able to hide it from Therapy with Brainstorm. I decay the Stoneforge and make a Rhino, but my SoFaI gets Counterspelled and Rhino eventually eats Swords as Monastery Mentor beats me to death with double Top.
In: Teeg, RecSage, Archmage, Needles, Carpets, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extraction
Out: Veterans, Therapies, 2 Path, Meren
We trade resources for a while, but I don't have a Needle for his Jace available and he runs me over with card advantage.
Round 4 - RUG Delver
He makes Goyf and some other threats. I make Strixes, Paths and Decays, then Rhino into Thragtusk into Witness into Thragtusk.
In: Archmage, Carpets
Out: 3 Therapy
Deathrite eats removal, but I follow it up with Veteran into Deed and a Strix with a Jitte.
Round 5 - Nahiri Miracles
Game 1 I keep a bad hand and pay for it - I mulliganed to six and saw Phyrexian Tower, Veteran, Therapy, Therapy, Thragtusk, Deed. I have a scry and two draw steps to find a green source and I can make Thragtusk on turn two and start applying pressure. I proceed to draw Plains into nothing until turn four or five, and Nahiri Emrakuls me to death. I should probably have scooped much earlier in this game to have time for a game three.
In: Teeg, Archmage, Needles, Carpets, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Extraction
Out: 3 Veterans, Therapies, 2 Path, Meren
G2 He uses Wear/Tear early to kill a Carpet. I get an early Tireless Tracker and make a lot of clues. Jace has to bounce it repeatedly but eventually goes down to 1 and gets beaten to death by a Deathrite - I have Path for his Snapcaster. Tireless Tracker comes back down and draws me more cards, making two clues with a fetch immediately to avoid getting bolted by Keranos. He doesn't find a Swords in time and I kill him with a 5/4 Tracker and a Batterskull token, with Rhino available to finish him off. I keep a Deed in play to avoid and Angel based problems coming up.
Game 3 I make a Stoneforge, a Strix and a Deathrite, then Extract his Terminus copies. He has Swords for the Stoneforge I equip SoFaI to and Jace bounces the Strix, slowing me down enough that I can't kill him before we go to time.
Top4 - Stoneforge Miracles
This match takes ages - I get a reasonable start with a Tracker drawing me a load of cards and a Jitte with a lot of counters. Eventually he hits Terminus for my Tracker + Strixes, which is fine, but my Thrag and Rhino get counterspelled or Sworded and Meren doesn't do much against a Karakas. Eventually he lands Top and Counterbalance and slowly beats me to death with a Batterskull token.
Sideboard same as last time.
This game goes a lot more quickly. He misses a land drop and I try to capitalize by using Needle on his Flooded Strand, but he proceeeds to draw/brainstorm into his mana anyway, making double Stoneforge, a Jace, Jitte, Batterskull. I have Reclamation Sage for Batterskull but for some reason think it costs 5 to bounce, not 3, so it gets away and he has the counterbalance to stop me from Therapy-ing it. I have Deed for the Stoneforges and Jitte, but Keranos bolts me for a while and an EoT Vendilion Clique picks up the Batterskull and finishes me off.
Overall I'm actually pretty happy with the deck. Strixes with equipment are a real threat, and the deck has plenty of lategame while running a much better early game against Delver.
Since the deck has equipment, but no completely impossible to kill threats, I think it wants Thrun in the sideboard for Miracles. Surgical Extraction on Terminus followed by Thrun feels like a good plan a lot of the time, particularly with any of the equipment in the deck. Sigarda does the job too, but can be countered so has a little bit worse of a time, while being harder on the mana. The deck could also use an answer for Keranos and/or Karakas. Unfortunately there isn't any good options to deal with both of those - probably Vindicate, with a couple Celestial Purge in the sideboard?
I'd go with something like this:
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
9 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Celestial Purge
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
On another note, I was able to pick up everything for the enchantment build over the weekend except a copy of Living Plane, so hopefully I'll be able to put that together for the next Legacy event near me.
Edit: formatting, remember more of round one.
Last edited by Navsi; 08-22-2016 at 08:36 AM.
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