Yes as we already want Teeg out of the board I believe 1 Savannah + Siege Rhino in the main is well worth it if you don't want to stretch the mana base into a third color.Originally Posted by Lejay
I'm almost wondering if Chrome Mox might be better than Tomb for the 3c version. Personally I found Tomb good because Baloth costs, but if you trade Baloth for Rhino, Tomb becomes much more awkward outside of GSZ and locks.
Currently playing Lejay's stock list to see how it goes before making changes.
One change I'm making is switching Giant Solifuge for Thrun, though - the spider is hardly impressive e.g. against Miracles when your opponent has Snapcasters/Cliques ready. Thrun should overall perform better.
Double Courser is definitely good.
I'm wondering how good Plague Spitter would be here. It's a pet card of mine, but it certainly keeps the board clean against opposing X/1 creatures.
Edit: I'm starting to run in white in the MD now. 2 Savannahs alongside 2 DRS (replaced the Signet with it) should gives me 9 potential duals + 2 DRS + 4 GSZ to fetch white sources. That should be plenty.
I know the MODO meta is ridiculously blue with 75+ %, but can't one Choke be moved into the sideboard? I'm looking for slots in the MD to throw in a KotR for testing purposes.
I think if you go tricolor and Rhinos, you should definitely go mox instead of Tombs.
Better for your life totals. Make 4 Wastes much more appealing. Allow you to play T1 Library too.
4 Library are a must if you go Mox imho. 4 Library are a must in general but whatever.
Imprinting Choke in matches were it isn't necessary sounds good, but other than that, I'm not too sure if we really want to lose CA to it.
It also doesn't synergize well with Courser.
imo, the problem with Plague Spitter is that it deals damage, and thus can not kill a TNN. Otherwise it does just fine as an alternative in the Toxic deluge slot. Against say DnT, the downside of StP is offset a bit by blanking most of their creatures until its answered.
Tbh courser sinergize with Library, not lands. Giving up 4 lands slots for better odds at casting library is probably better for courser sinergy.
I've been testing it a bit and it seems decent for now, the mulls aren't as bad as i thought, and even if the CA is definitely an issue, it's far rarer to get stuck with vindicate/Ryhno/KotR/Decay in hand and you can run the full 4 wastes which are amazing in this deck. Chrome can also imprint cards under chalice (DRS if you run it after chalice at 1), and chokes against nonblue decks, as irrilevant as it may be.
Scryb ranger is also really cute, too bad we run no equips (and maybe we should with chrome since you can also SFM on T1 with it, mb remove the chokes if your meta ain't as blue for 3 sfm + 1 batterskull + 1 sword -1 rhyno).
EDIT: this is what i'll be testing tomorrow
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sylvan Library
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
3 Chrome Mox
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Horizon Canopy
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
i like plague spitter but its probably overcosted, and has no immediate effect when coming into play, it dies to all removal, and can't block and survive.
i think if you are taking out tombs you have to replace them with a mox. I'm not suggesting that but if you are going to do it you have to compensate or else the deck just becomes a slow green deck...
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
So I played Qweerios' list in a daily yesterday thanks to TopWizard lending me his vindicates.
Round one I face Sneak show. I win Game one because he does nothing not even cantripping or countering my turn 2 chalice. He reaches up to 6 mana with two sol lands and 1 petal 1 fetch, but with Knight+vindicate he goes down to two and then I kill him in two attacks. Karakas main would have felt safer for the last two turns but you only have one knight and you have enough colorless lands already.
Game two he S&T turn 2 and I have nothing big to put against his griselbrand since the list doesn't run Titania/Stingerfling/Kalonian to race/kill it.
Game three he jams a turn 2 moon because he probably realized after game two I wasn't playing the exact same list he used to play against. I have a fetch in play so I get my forest but I can't play anything and then he goes sneak and emrakul the turn after wiping my board.
Round two I face a deathblade. I win game one pretty easily thanks to choke.
Game two and three I lose to big mana fulls. I don't want to criticize the 25 lands, but I'll make a point about playing only two libraries. It's worth noting Sylvan library turn 2 was forced turn two in two games (G1 and G3 or G2 and G3 not sure).
Also at one point I can play either siege rhino or GSZ for siege rhino, with dryad and another land in hand. I realize how I would question the choice with baloths but it's a no brain here with rhinos. He forces Siege rhino, untaps into cantrip -> thoughtseize and I smile.
Round three I face UR in the 0-2 bracket. He doesn't do much at all and I win 2-0. I kept all tombs like Qweerios does and it's worth noting that when trying to stabilize against his choked empty board on low life (7 I think) I had to tap two tombs to get a siege rhino with green sun zenith since I had Savannah, bayou and tomb x2. So instead of -4 +4 I went -4 +3, and worse than that, I had a siege rhino in hand which was uncastable when a baloth would have made me go +2 on life.
Round four I lose to a patriot deck against a good player at 2-1 who was nice enough to accept playing. Not much to say except I made another mana full game 2. Lost 2-0.
So getting some interesting feedback out of this, I think the question isn't 3 or 4 libraries now, but just playing 4 even without mox. The other interesting learning is I will no longer use the reasoning of "Baloth is inferior to rhino once resolved, only question is how can we support the manabase". Now it's more "you should win thanks to your prison pieces and when it goes badly you need to be able to cast creatures that will help you survive until you get more prison elements, answers, or your CA engine". So baloth being very easy to cast (or discard) is a major thing in the deck.
I do not totally exclude the alternative road of a small splash for 1 Rhino. But the experience with 4 went really in only one direction. I honestly would say it if trample would have helped facing TNNs or if keeping batterskull in check happened. I wanted to play this list on two dailies or at least one daily and some two mens (competition is less tougher in it) but after spewing those tickets for buys and the daily I don't really feel like doing it again.
It is worth noting that since I went up to 4 wasteland and cut thragtusk in my list I played 7 dailies and I made in the money (3-1 or better) everytime with six 3-1 and one 4-0.
I thought of plague spitter at some point. But like it has been said all these sweepers effect have to answer TNN.
I wouldn't move choke to the sideboard. I think putting a trinisphere sideboard is better unless you are in a meta where you shouldn't play this deck because of not enough blue.
Regarding Mox. If people want to play with them again I suggest playtesting against blue sfm decks in your gauntlet in priority. These are the ones who made me cut card disadvantage acceleration, and I consider patriot as a good deck that also preys on UR. No sure about the UR vs esper match-up though.
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I suggest
4x Sylvan Library
2x Words of Wilding
swap for Words of waste against combo
It's not supposed to be a joke deck. I won't play cards that do nothing on their own (and the turn they CIP even with the combo). We lack space for a ton of valuable cards already and our cards against combo are faster than words of waste + sylvan.
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Why the hostile tone? If you're running library and you're not cheating replacement effects with it through words, uba mask, dredge, etc. , I think you're leaving potential on the table.
You do realize that half your deck does nothing against a whole bunch of decks right (turbo eldrazi should crush this hard for instance [e.g. candelabra, repeal, glimmerpost, eye of ugin/eldrazi). If this is intended as a meta call against blue, how is this better than imperial painter which runs moons and rebs/pyros and a jaya ballard main deck.
Sorry didn't want to sound hostile, but I wasn't sure it was a joke or a serious proposition (wilds of wilding is often used jokingly in my area as being combo with brainstorm and such) so didn't want to say "not good enough" and then get a "was a joke dude". So I ended up making the "joke deck comment" myself.
If I play something that combos with sylvan library it will be either abundance or uba mask. I dismissed both as being too slow and situational and wouldn't play sylvan interaction that is weaker than those. Uba mask can do a lot on itself but in addition to being four mana that will be against what are supposed to be good match-ups and finding a spot main deck or sideboard is a nightmare. Also facing brainstorm it can backfire.
Regarding the eldrazi match-up I considered it a hard one at the beginning which is why I had ruinations sideboard. Now with 6 land destruction effects main (and lib to find them) + Titania that brings back wasteland while being an awesome clock I feel confident in the match-up.
Regarding the red (or any other shell with sol lands) comparision, as I said multiple times in the thread the real strengh of green is consistency thanks to sylvans and GSZs. Painter is a good deck which was my deck of choice before building this one, but the UR and burn match-ups aren't easy and that alone is a big problem in the online metagame as well as in the meta I expect for GP NJ.
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I forgot to answer that post.
You have to consider the strengh of signets with ancient tomb whether with playing a turn one signet or turn 1 chalice and turn two Signet + a two mana slot.
Penumbra spider is a good suggestion but I've liked the job Stingerfling has done versus Sneak, D&T and even miracles. I'll keep it in mind in case at some point I only care about delvers with that slot.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Thanks for the explanation. I mainly wanted to check if you forgot about replacement effects or purposely dismissed the options (could have given more context in my post). You also have courser which interacts nicely with Sylvan Library in two ways (gaining life for extra cards and digging faster with lands on top). I did read the opening post where you addressed how GSZ and library reduce variance better than any other non-blue deck.
I haven't done any testing yet but courser looks like a MVP to me.
If you decide to keep the deck black/green (remove white) Wheel of Sun and Moon is an option over Rest in Peace (It has it's pro's and cons, but at least you don't get blown out by Transmute Artifact into Helm of Obedience). I think it's dangerous to run graveyard hate that opens you up to Helm of Obedience because there are quiet some decks that utilize this kill (mainly UW / Miracles type lists and Tezz). I doubt you'd board that card in against these match-ups, but I think we've all seen SCG coverage where helm of obedience was boarded in by graveyard dependent decks to fight graveyard hate. I think you can also force Imperial Painter to answer it because if you enchant yourself, the Grindstone combo will result in a draw.
@ Lejay
Is the list on the first posting , the updated list ?
Thank you.
Not at all, I'll update the OP. If Qweerios presents an updated GBW decklist that gives him satisfaction I'll put it in the OP too.
Here is what I play with (maintenance on MTGO today, I'll do other things away from the computer) :
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [R] Bayou
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [TE] Wasteland
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Reclamation Sage
1 [] Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
4 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
1 [CMD] Golgari Signet
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [8E] Choke
4 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [RAV] Rolling Spoil
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [MM] Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 [M12] Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 [EX] Spike Weaver
SB: 1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [R] Savannah
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [M14] Kalonian Hydra
SB: 1 [GP] Giant Solifuge
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
I added a tower of the magistrate (which was already a consideration before) instead of a qasali. Like krosan grips it's an uncounterable answer to batterskul, though less definitive, that doubles as another land for match-ups where I side out ancient tombs.
The reason not to play it was of course Nemesis which made the card disappear from tables. However not only people have been playing less TNN lately (in general 2 in TNN decks and there are less TNN decks), but it also is an awesome card in the gold digger match-up. Since the deck is increasingly popular despite its difficulties versus burn and UR (from what I heard), that reason is enough to try it.
I guess no one tested dust bowl like I asked a few days ago ?
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I have two copies on MODO - in which slot would you run Dust Bowl?
I can do some testing, probably at the weekend (or lend them to you).
It is not really on the agenda right now as I have to play with tower first and it was more interesting in a list with fewer wastelands.
But i'd like to see how it works at some point whether it is main or sb.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
What is the purpose of Wasteland here? As a frequent MUD player I know from experience how painful it can be to be trapped under your own Trinisphere after popping a Wasteland (or tapped grim monolith without gas to untap it).
Ramp decks (Including any deck forfeiting one drops in exchange for sol lands and Chalice of the Void) want to ramp and cannot afford the loss of lands unless you run something like Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds. I would say that, considering you play with Choke, Rishadan Port is more attractive than Wasteland because it is reusable every turn. Deathrite Shaman feeds on Wasteland; I know that, and Courser of Kruphix offsets Wastelands negative effects by digging into more lands, but by this point you're also in turn 3. Wasteland could be a liability in the early game.
Rishadan Port makes Choke better when you don't have Trinisphere online, but perhaps Choke is already sufficiently strong against blue decks. Have you considered Rishadan Port at all, even as a one off (e.g. 3 wasteland, 1 rishadan port)?
I could definitely see Dust Bowl being a thing once you get your Coursers going.
In which matches do you board out the Tombs?
Maybe I missed in the pages before, but what is the reason to not run an Eternal Witness as GSZ target? I'm asking because I just remembered the sweet interaction between Stampeding Wildebeests and green CiP creatures. One could throw in Wood Elves, too, if necessary, but that might be overkill. Recycling Sage, Witness, Baloths/Rhinos or even Titania --> Wasteland sounds appealing, although it sucks without support, which might very well be the dealbreaker here.
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