I'm lurking since the OP, like all the Chalice deck =)
I'm testing this version:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rolling Spoil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Trinisphere
3 Choke
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Titania
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Garruk Relentless
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
I really don't like Baloth, 4 mana for a 4/4 is very poor. Die by Batterskull, Tarmogoyf, block by Pyromancer's token, by anything.
SB is very different, the one i don't like is Garruk Relentess probably. Null rod si the best against equip&Miracle, probably too many jitte? Dunno.
while I generally agree with most of the points you have made throughout the thread, I find it very hard to believe that the manabase is too weak if you -1 forest +1 savannah, -2 baloth +2 siege rhino. Heck, even if you only did 1 siege rhino it would be better because with GSZ even having 1 is great. I think having 1 savannah should be able to at least support 2 siege rhino. at 2 you may or may not draw it, but in the event you do draw it, its likely you will also have a fetch land. If you fetch it early and it gets wasteland maybe you shouldn't have fetched it so early...Originally Posted by Lejay
making that slight change should have a noticeable impact AND free up a sideboard slot.
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Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
@Apple713,
I suggest you re-read what I wrote in my last post as you seem to be misunderstanding. I didn't suggest playing Helm of Obedience I simply stated that if the circumstances allowed, I would play it. If by some twist of fate the metagame gets significantly more crippled by Rest in Peace and the card becomes a maindeck staple just like Choke, Chalice, and Trini, I wouldn't be against playing Helm as a win condition instead of creatures. The whole point of my post was to emphasize the fact that creatures are only one way to win, and that our primary gameplan is to play lock pieces, not to overwhelm the board with creatures. This is the difference between a prison deck and an aggro deck.
@Lejay,
I see no valid reasons to play less than 4 Ancient Tombs in this deck. The rational behind Ancient Tombs is the same as playing no less than 4 Trinispheres, 4 Chalices, and 4 Chokes. You probably know this by now but a T1 Chalice on the play or on the draw is often a game winning play. Being able to play any of the above by T2 is extremely crucial and is emphasized by the fact that a significant proportion of our success is attributed to winning the die roll. I wouldn't downplay our free-wins potential for a mere 2 life points. The benefits of a T1 Ancient Tomb easily outweigh the costs of drawing additional ones.
Also, I don't think your list has enough access to black mana. I had more access to colored sources with my 3 color/4 Wasteland deck. How many basics do you "need" to play through Blood Moon or around Price of Progress? How badly do you have to do either of these? This deck is already forced to extend into Wasteland and we can't afford to slowroll our land drops to play around it when it is obviously conflicting with our main strategy of "Lock ASAP and beat". I think it is perfectly manageable to play around PoP with 2-4 Forests and 0-1 Swamp and all we need against Blood Moon is a Forest. Is the Swamp even necessary against Blood Moon? I highly question the inclusion of a non-green producing land in what is essentially a monogreen deck with 4 Tombs and 4 Wastes. Functionally you can cast everything except Decay through Blood Moon with 2 Forests. Not only Swamp is less accessible than Forest in this deck but we have more incentives to fetch the second Forest than the first Swamp against a Blood Moon deck. Besides, Blood Moon can be answered with Reclamation Sage and we can play DRS for black mana if we need to cast Decay. I would sooner increase the fetch count and play the full 4 Bayous rather than risk taking a little too many hits from a Delver or Goyf because I can't find a black source.
Having a 2nd Deathrite is becoming increasingly important to me. I understand that we want to play as few as possible in order to avoid some obvious anti-synergy but I have been forced into the second one more than once before simply because of Trinisphere and removal/wastes, or because I needed GY hate and my opponent clearly didn't want me to have any. It is interesting to note how 2 DRS is the magic number to dismantle Dredge G1. If I played only one DRS, I would definitely play Ooze along with it.
I can't get behind 4 Sylvan Library. I understand how amazing this card is but there are several things it is not, such as:
1) Being good in multiples. We have no ways to undo dead cards. A starting hand with 2 Libraries, or any hand where you draw a 2nd Library before you get to play the first one is essentially a mulligan to 6 for a card intended to make you draw quality/quantity. The glaring issue here is that the card puts you at a deficit to begin with and the only way to make up for it is by paying large amounts of life. If Jace wasn't blue (Force, Brainstorm), and couldn't put other Jaces back on top, he wouldn't see play as much more than a 1 or 2-of in decks that cannot use the additional copies.
2) Having an immediate effect. Take note that Library does not replace itself until the very next turn, and only if you pay 4 life. For a Library to be effective you have to have lots of life points to spare and lots of turns to activate it for Library to truly be good.
Ideally, Library is a card you play 1 of and get when you need. However, since Library is an effect we highly value because of the nature of our deck, we have to bite the bullet on this one and play multiples. There is a lot to be gained statistically by going from 1 to 2 copies and everything else has diminishing returns. For these reasons I wouldn't play more than 2-3 copies of the card with 2 copies being the optimal number. I believe cards like Courser of Kruphix allows us to play less copies of Library by mimicking the card advantage/quality properties of Library while also not overlapping and incidentally having impressive synergy.
Concerning Goglari Signet, I don't understand its place in your deck. It is random and doesn't do anything particularly important except being slow and clunky. If this slot is intended for mana, I would suggest playing another land (perhaps the 4th Bayou or the coveted Savannah). I think there are much better cards than Signets to be played in Legacy if your game plan doesn't revolve around them (AKA: Tezzerator).
About Qasali Pridemage, is it the effect or the body that you want? If you want the effect, Krosan Grip is much better, and if you want both, Reclamation Sage gives you both. Pridemage forces you to make a choice between effect and body while also being off-color. I don't recommend it.
Faerie Macabre seems a little too narrow. If you already intend on playing a white splash, I highly recommend Rest in Peace instead because it acts as an additional lock piece against a wide variety of decks while also being much more backbreaking as a form of GY hate. I agree that Macabre is better against Reanimator but if you value consistency and flexibility, RiP is the better card.
Another interesting thing I've noticed is that your choices of silver bullets in your GSZ package seem a little off. A lot of people suffer from what I call: "Nic Fit Syndrom". When you see more potential than you should in an over-costed card because your deck has more ability than other decks to play high-end cards. That form of leeway in deck building comes with an innate desire to be special and unique and sometimes coerces us into making bad choices. Don't mistake me with the guy that comes out of nowhere and says your cards are bad and your deck is bad because you play cards that are unplayable by legacy standards. However, there is some truth to that in the sense that bad cards are sometimes bad because they don't do much at all while some other bad cards are only bad because they are deemed "uncastable" by most decks in most legacy environments.
For starters, Giant Solifuge is extremely narrow and underwhelming compared to Thrun. Solifuge is only better than Thrun against a Jace with 3 counters. Thrun on the other hand is bigger, much more resilient, uncountable if you draw it, and does overall a lot more against other bad situations such as facing Batterskull. Against a Miracle player in general, I would sooner pick Thrun (especially with Karakas in the SB) simply because a Miracle player has way less answers to Thrun than Solifuge.
Looking at Stingerfling Spider makes me cringe. A 5 mana answer to Delver that you intend to GSZ for isn't worth its salt. Even if the card has some form of application against SnT, I would still value a card like Go for the Throat or Putrefy instead. At least those cards come down in time against Delver and can be used against a lot more cards than a giant reaching spider. Putrefy and Maelstrom Pulse are especially good SB cards in this deck because they handle multiple of our nemeses such as Batterskull, Jitte, Goyfs and even Liliana.
Kalonian Hydra as a SB card doesn't really address a specific issue. Hydra is to Sylvan Plug as Goyf is to RUG: it is our big beater. You rarely see RUG decks packing Goyfs in their SB because it is best played as a mainboard card and has little impact as a G2 and G3 card. If Hydra isn't good enough for the main, I'm afraid it isn't good enough for the sideboard either.
Keep in mind that this is all constructive criticism and is not meant to offend you. I value your opinion and I only bring these points up because I believe they are valid. I honestly believe the deck has potential and would like to make the optimal list.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
First off congrats I joined this forum just to comment on this thread.
I was wondering if we played something like this....
3 deathrite shaman
4 thalia
2 scavenging ooze
2 knight of the reliquary
1 spike weaver
1 thragtusk
1 titania
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
3 choke
4 abrupt decay
4 green sun zenith
3 sylvan library
1 tabernacle of pendrel vale
1 urborg
4 bayou
3 savannah
4 verdent catacoms
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 forest
Just some thoughts. I also like the possibilities of playing stoneforge mystic and equipment package
I have been testing the deck intensively for the past few days because I am still undecided on what to bring to Jersey. So far I have my eyes set on a Junk Nic Fit deck but Junk Sylvan Plug is also quite promising. Here is my latest list with some interesting techs:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Siege Rhino
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Forest
//SB
4 Rolling Spoil
4 Rest in Peace
2 Null Rod
1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
Vindicate is absolutely amazing in the deck. It makes sure my opponent stays locked under Trinisphere and it kills everything that can slip through the lock (Batterskull and Delver).
I am now convinced that a singleton KotR is now a must in this deck for several reasons. It completely locks an opponent out with Trinisphere as you get to fetch Wasteland every turn. KotR's ability has some great synergy with Kruphix. The singleton Karakas is now more accessible which makes the SnT matchup a bit better. KotR is another great way to convert excessive land drops and gets really big, really fast.
Scryb Ranger is still being tested but it is a fast and reliable way to stop a Delver and activate KotR and DRS several times a turn while also protecting from Wastelands and making sure Kruphix gives at least 1 life per turn. Scryb + Kruphix stops a Delver + YP board and there isn't much they can do about it if you have a chalice@1 or Trini+Choke.
Rolling Spoil belongs in the sideboard. The card is excessively good in only a handful of matchups and those are usually the ones where Choke come out.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
You have to buy the edh deck to get her. She's been great so far... I could almost see wanting 2. I think it could also be good in some kind of KOTR shell.
@Qweerios
ancient tomb: agree
Blood moon: you shouldn't be worried about blood moon really. its played in only a few decks and you don't get blown out by it if it lands. the decks that run it in the SB are not thinking to bring it in against you. the list isn't well known enough for them to guess it could hurt, especially if you are fetching up basics game 1.
Sylvan library: it gets countered, and abrupt decayed almost immediately, so drawing 2 is rarely a bad thing. having 2 in play is...
Golgari Signet: other than producing abrupt decay mana to combat moon effects rather pointless as a 1 of
Pridemage: agree
Faerie Macabre: in his list running so little white he cannot rely on RIP. Macabre is an on the draw t0 answer against a deck where you might need it that quickly. Obviously RIP is better, but being able to cast it reliably when you need it makes it less than optimal, at least running the list he is with so little white mana.
Solifuge: agree
Stingerflinger: agree
Kalonian Hydra: agree
seems intuitive to run titania with kotr at least 1
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Golgari Signet seems the worst slot, if you need some "ramp" which doesn't die to most removal you can try:
Sylvan Caryatid - Sure if Chalice/Trinisphere forms a lock, hexproof isn't needed, but a wall can block most legacy ground units and hexproof help to let it stay bolt, decay, swords etc. proof at any time, no matter if you have lockpieces. With Zenith you can tutor it if needed. Seems way better than Golgari Signet - but i am unsure, if this deck needs one more "ramp". Green brings various Ramp-Creatures for example: Sylvan Ranger, Wood Elves, Sakura-Tribe Elder - all of them also love Courser of Kruphix ;)
If you fear (UR) Delver Swings you can also try: Penumbra Spider, even without any lockpieces, UR Delver can struggle against it - at the end it will buy some time to find other cards.
I hope the GBw Version will gain some good results, i love Siege Rhino here (but i think 3 seems more than enough).
TEAM MtG Berlin
I didn't try priest yet. I probably won't as I feel the hate needs to be faster than my prison pieces for full value. That and the disynergy doesn't make me want to test it.
I searched for Titania in the trade section one hour before the daily and waited. 20 minutes before the daily appeared a bot with two of them for 9 tickets each.
If you want null rod against equipments you probably shouldn't play jittes.
Revoker dies to all your sweepers effect and it should be a problem from time to time.
Siege vs Baloth is only a matter of mana base as I already said.
With 1 savannah I would play 1 siege rhino and two for two or three Rhinos.
The only problem I have with ancient tomb is the current environment. UR is by far the most played and I don't think it will be specific to the online meta. Burn is also very played online and from what I hear those two decks will be top choices for people not used to playing legacy at GP NJ.
Swamp isn't mandatory I'd say, but it hasn't been a problem so far either. I do appreciate it for massacre and deluge, mainly massacre. There are match-ups where you need to hardcast massacre that play wasteland. The PoP issue isn't a marginal one in my opinion. The mana base you advocate is decent, but I still see the one in your list only has ONE basic. Turning a very popular match-up from an almost complete bye to a bad match-up because of that manabase is the only thing that still prevents me from testing it. Honestly I would have already without that, but I expect burn to be quite played at GP NJ and it sure is online.
Yes I liked 2 DRS and the choice is also fine.
Ooze is too weak too often main unfortunately (I started with it main deck and a second in the sideboard) especially now with 4 wastelands. It's a side in versus UR/burn but not the best, so I don't think aggressive meta entices us to play it main.
I believe 3 or 4 are the optimal numbers. I'd argue for 4th saying having it in starting hand is much better than drawing it, you always get forced/decay out of the first, and it's awesome with several coursers (you don't pay life anymore to draw cards but gain life). If consistency is the reason to play a green chalice shell then playing 4 not as out of place as you describe.
The slot could be 2nd DRS, as I am sure I want it to be an accel. As a singleton it offers nice options with sol lands. Playing it turn two off two lands versus a daze/pierce deck put them in front of an uncomfortable choice. The fact that it doesn't get bolted is huge.
On the one hand I probably need it more than you since I have one less tomb, but on the other hand it will be even better in your shell with 4 tombs and more color requirements. You should really try one instead of another mana source and may end up with two.
Of course krosan is better for the effect. But I needed my krosan grips to be able to threaten Jace when they have nothing to destroy. Having too many answers is exactly how I lost this game versus esper because in that match-up I have to side in not only krosan but also massacre and deluge. All these nice cards are the reason I lost facing a fatesealing Jace. As I feel it's a set up that could easily reproduce I want to play things that can do both, until I am proven I am losing too much without Krosan grip.
Same answer than to the containment priest comment. I feel additionnal hate has too be pretty fast. Faerie macabre is exactly what I need versus dredge and reanimator but also versus storm where PiF is used a HIGH percentage of the time in my exeperience playing versus them.
I didn't try to have a particularly extended toolbox neither main or sideboard. A good tool box is a small one. I think the choices I made outside of weaver+Kalonian bring the best value.
Jace at three or two counters is something that happens all the time because they don't expect you to be able to deal with it. In that case I get more value out of solifuge versus Jace decks and combo decks where it replaces a baloth. I could see the comeback of a thrun but I think cutting solifuge for it would be a loss.
If your opponent has both batterskull and Jace you are so far behind that I doubt thrun would have get the job done.
An unanswered delver being by far the main way to lose to delver decks, I want my GSZ to do something for it. You can save time against flipped delver with the deck, but be unable to race it. This is why I have it. I priviliege Spider over Bassara tower archer precisely because you can save time by gaining life and because it is so much better versus a board of several delvers/vs D&T/vs sneak.
Absolutely. But I don't consider it a sideboard card. Consider that as a temporary mesure until I find a better way to either play without it (for example using siege rhinos + priests that would compensate versus elves) or to reinclude it in the main deck.
Thalia seems horrible with your lock pieces. I don't know why you would want to scavenging ooze main deck, especially with 3 DRS. Playing 3 DRS with Kotr and Titania will lead to some troubles regularly. Urborg is unplayable in this trinispehre choke deck, you don't want people to make mana with fetches. I don't see spike weaver being good enough without the combo with kalonian hydra. Tabernacle wouldn't be too much out of place in the deck but you have far too many creatures with it. Without dryad arbor GSZ loses its versatility. Play 4 choke or don't play this deck depending on the metagame, but don't do in betweens.
I would be worried about running rolling spoils as the only sweepers. Both because of cards like serra avenger/mirran crusader/moggcatcher etc..and because they are expensive and I found out playing massacres was a big step in making patriot and esper good match-ups. Vindicate is helping versus most of those (not mirran) but aren't there some games where the land destruction plan goes wrong and they keep on landing and playing threats that won't die to a -1/-1 ?
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You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I agree with Qweerios. Revoker is here for S&T, painter, miracle: without him i think i want to up Null Rod to 3 and Contamination priest to 3 of course: S&T scares me.
Very interesting evolutions of the deck, btw. I'll try Kotr
With the input of the last two pages, I'm also going to brew, since there are lots of interesting ideas. I'm leaning towards a more white-heavy build with Rhinos, though.
I was about to suggest Revoker as well since it helps against Miracles, Planeswalkers in general and is a major boon against S&T, especially in tandem with Karakas.
MD I might agree, but if you board in Revoker, I fail to see major overlaps of matches where you want to run Revoker and sweepers.
SFM decks run either TNN/SCM/Souls or White army of X/1s so you are not using it to block equipments.
Elves is a match-up where you'll need any help but won't side in revokers because sweepers are more important. You can possibly run both but don't tell me you'll be happy about that configuration.
Revoker is inferior to pulse/bramblecrush to answer planeswakers because the mana cost isn't an issue at this point and because the sorceries are both more versatile and less weak.
It is decent against storm but if I can run slots that can disrupt before my lock pieces touch the field I'd rather run those.
Revoker is nice versus sneak show, but since I really want lands that can replace ancient tombs in some match-ups I prefer having a karakas plan which is also better versus reanimator.
I played revokers at the very beginning as that's a classic interesting tool for stompy decks. Those reasons mainly made me move away from it for other slots.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
@Lejay: i'm very interested on your Side in/side out, because this deck isn't a Stompy deck, more like Stax/prison and i'm not too expert with these ones
Very interesting debate these last few pages! I can see the reasons why it is tempting to play GWB (MD), but I'm going with Lejays reasoning. Weakening the manabase doesn't seem smart in this environment. I'm already seeing the number of wastelands going up in my region and I'm liking the deck in the basic G-form more just for this reason. I've been testing this deck now for a little week, but I'm having troubles with the sideboarding. I'm always lost with what to side out.
Lejay, do you mind giving a small SBguideline?
I didn't post any guide because i wanted to wait for the list to be stabilized. I'll post tonight or tomorrow how i sideboard unless great changes happen to the list. I'll try to test white splash in a daily tonight before i write those down.
Still not sure about kalonian's fate without rhinos.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Personally I never side out my Ancient Tombs. Even against burn I like them because it virtually accelerates you a turn for 2 life. Every turn you delay against burn converts to 3+ damage. Landing a Daze proof Chalice on t2 against UR Delver or a T1 Chalice followed by t2 Trini is still the most efficient way to win IMO. I don't intend to beat burn decks without Chalice and perhaps that's why I don't take PoP too seriously.
On a different note, KotR is very efficient. Chaining Wastelands under Trini has been one of my main paths to victory.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I will say it again but without CPriest dont expect to win any matches against Sneaky Show. I get the fact that its not played alot online, but in all seriousness Sneaky Show is a really good deck(which imho is criminally underplayed). This, combined with the fact that CPirest is really good against alot of other decks like Reanimator, Ichorid and even Elves makes me wonder some of the choices made here.. It complements playing 2 Faerie Macabre as those get boarded in aswell versus Ichorid and Dredge to help prevent fast combo kills. Playing 3c is cute and I like Siege Rhino alot too, but the manabase is horrible(4waste+4tomb+splashcolors is a no go for me). This reason alone should prevent u from playing 3c. On top of that the most played deck atm in UR Delver plays Blood Moon/PoP somewhere in the 75. And since the manabase only allows for 1-2 basics this is a serious problem.
With just one karakas I didn't expect you to side them all out but keeping them all is a bit surprising. It generally won't cost you 2 life, but more than that over the course of a game unless you use it as a crystal vein. But even in this case (which I don't recommend) it will still damage you for two more on PoP.
Activating tomb versus UR or burn is kind of the equivalent of having them draw and play for free 2/3 of a business card. I'd rather give them a turn and function on other lands.
The only games I could lose to burn were involving ancient tombs. Since I have this land plan the match-up has been quite unlosable with or without chalice.
An additionnal note on burn is that not only it should be played in high numbers, it also beats UR. So I think we should show some respect for the red mages.
Vindicate is 17 tickets a piece online. So I if I don't find someone to borrow them from I probably won't be able to test your list Qweerios.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Hey all been rocking this on mtgo a little bit and have been loving it. Props to lejay for the concept and greatly written primer. Was playing the BG shell mostly then I tried Red(Huntmaster) and White(Rhino) splashes. White is the way to go I think even if it's just 1 Savannah as Siege Rhino is such a beating. Got me thinking Doran, the Siege Tower could be worth looking into considering Courser/DRS/Rhino all benefit.
Doran crossed my mind to deal with Nemesis. In a white build it's testable.
You meant a 1 of savannah for a 1 of Rhino ?
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
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