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Thread: [Deck] Turbo Depths

  1. #2761

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Hey guys,

    I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion . I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?

  2. #2762
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinkhole View Post
    Hey guys,

    I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion . I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?
    I just can't convince myself to play Safekeeper. It's just too all-in at the expense of a land, and it still does nothing against Terminus. With that freed space, I'm looking to sideboard 2-3 choke. It is one of the best ways to nerf miracles.

    The safekeeper slots I swapped out for Not of this World, and I relegated it to the sideboard.
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Of course. I only meant Maze of Ith, Ghost Quarter, opposing Wastelands, Dryad Arbor, Mishra's Factory, etc.
    Sorry, he was talking specifically about a second copy of ETB lands like Bogs and Steppes when you replied, and the topic got shifted. Just wanted to make sure.

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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I just can't convince myself to play Safekeeper. It's just too all-in at the expense of a land, and it still does nothing against Terminus. With that freed space, I'm looking to sideboard 2-3 choke. It is one of the best ways to nerf miracles.
    Safekeeper is not the best card to topdeck but it's likely the best card to protect your token from spot removal and edicts.

    If you really hate Safekeeper for the cost, there's always Steely Resolve. Not of this World really does nothing when you are facing the typical 2 x answer.
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  5. #2765

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinkhole View Post
    Hey guys,

    I have a lot of U-Decks and Miracles in my local meta, so that means cantripping into oblivion . I have two Chains of Mephistopheles laying arround and would love to make them fit into one of my legacy decks. Dephts is the only deck where it could be fitting in. What do you think of this idea of playing one main instead of the 3. Safekeeper or adding two to sideboard, as a alround tech against all blue based decks? Would the chains be a bad idea or a possible choice?
    Might be worth testing, just note that it conflicts with sylvan library, a card that would also be great against miracles.

  6. #2766
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    Safekeeper is not the best card to topdeck but it's likely the best card to protect your token from spot removal and edicts.

    If you really hate Safekeeper for the cost, there's always Steely Resolve. Not of this World really does nothing when you are facing the typical 2 x answer.
    I play Dark Confidant and Dryad Arbor, both of which add creatures to sacrifice to Edict effects. Confidant also helps me draw extra cards even if I falter, giving me opportunities to stay in the game. Not of this World not only counters Swords to Plowshares but also Karakas and Jace activations. Fighting through 2x answers is going to be tough regardless. I don't want to be sacrificing a land in a deck already tight on land drops (Safekeeper.) Safekeeper also doesn't do anything more than Dryad Arbor in regards to Edict effects.

    Steely Resolve I think is unplayable. I haven't seen it in *any* DD lists. I've seen NotW in plenty of lists. The 'gotcha' factor is definitely appealing to me. People can play around Safekeeper, especially given enough time, but playing against 8 discard spells alongside NotW will be challenging.

    TL,DR - Dark Confidant plays a similar role, but one that can approach from a different angle. If Confidant draws 1-2 extra cards or even just soaks up removal, I am very happy with that. If unanswered, Confidant will give me absurd card draw to fight through the different threats.
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  7. #2767

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Athlete View Post
    Might be worth testing, just note that it conflicts with sylvan library, a card that would also be great against miracles.
    I came to this idea, because I have seen it in a few older Aggro Loam lists. I think thoughts behind this idea were to play 1 - 2 Chains main as a kind of anti Blue Chalice number 5 - 6, to lock them out more easily. And yes the lists played one or two library main with the chains, although it is an anti synergie. So I asked if adding a Chain in Depths is completly nonsense, or worth to give it a try.

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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinkhole View Post
    I came to this idea, because I have seen it in a few older Aggro Loam lists. I think thoughts behind this idea were to play 1 - 2 Chains main as a kind of anti Blue Chalice number 5 - 6, to lock them out more easily. And yes the lists played one or two library main with the chains, although it is an anti synergie. So I asked if adding a Chain in Depths is completly nonsense, or worth to give it a try.
    Dark Confidant lets you play Chains, because it isn't a draw trigger it's a 'put card into your hand' trigger. Have your cake, eat it too.
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I've been watching DNSolver's streams on this deck. I highly recommend watching these if you're serious about getting proficient with this deck. Excellent material.
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Steely Resolve I think is unplayable. I haven't seen it in *any* DD lists. I've seen NotW in plenty of lists. The 'gotcha' factor is definitely appealing to me. People can play around Safekeeper, especially given enough time, but playing against 8 discard spells alongside NotW will be challenging.
    Just a PSA, I played a single Steely Resolve in my board over a Safekeeper at GP Richmond (and went 11-4 to 48th) and it legit won ~6 games by itself. It’s niche, but unreal in matchups you want it. Not of this World is bad, loses to StP + Snap and it gets blown out by Flusterstorm too. Nearly all matchups you want the protection for deal with Marit Lage from numerous angles, and it’s almost never as easy as beating a single Plow.

    Safekeeper is the truth. So is Resolve. So is Rite of Consumption for that matter.

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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Can't argue with that, lol. I have rites in the board, I'll look to getting steely resolve and safekeepers.

    EDIT: Is Steely Resolve older tech? I hadn't seen it in lists before (and I've been skimming a TON of lists.) Or is this newly discovered tech? I was hoping to nab it for a couple bucks and it turns out it's around a $7 card (still incredibly affordable, I was just surprised.) I'll look to getting the Safekeepers first.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 09-05-2018 at 07:44 AM.
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  12. #2772

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    EDIT: Is Steely Resolve older tech? I hadn't seen it in lists before (and I've been skimming a TON of lists.) Or is this newly discovered tech? I was hoping to nab it for a couple bucks and it turns out it's around a $7 card (still incredibly affordable, I was just surprised.) I'll look to getting the Safekeepers first.
    Steely Resolve had been tested out at least as far back as 2013 and had a minor price hike after the deck featuring it out of the sideboard did some good work on camera a year or two ago.

  13. #2773
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Gotcha.

    So is Not of this World unplayable? It just seems so good! I have a fairly high saturation of Death and Taxes in my local metagame, at least 4 players consistently. I figured Not of this World could allow for a window to get in against that deck in particular. (To answer the unasked question: yes, I am actively trying to get Dread of Night's for my sideboard.)

    EDIT: Here is DNSolver's most recent list (14th on 9/3 online challenge.) He's still fighting the good fight.

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20002&d=329712

    Everything makes sense to me except for the Hymns. What matchups are those for? Miracles? Zero Dread of Night as well, which is surprising. Maybe Death and Taxes is played less on MTGO?
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Not of this World is embarrassing against a deck like Death and Taxes where they have no shortage of answers to Marit Lage and it even isn’t free much of the time due to Thalia, not to mention in your case at least you straight up swap Dark Confidants for them, which are fantastic in any matchup that can easily answer Marit Lage (Side note I ran 3 MD Confidant and they were terrific all weekend). In short, NotW is just flat out bad, or at the very least just inferior to other options.

    Steely Resolve isn’t something I expect to catch on in huge numbers not is it good in multiples, but it more than pulls it’s weight against white decks, Lands, and Aggro Loam. For the GP meta, I expected a heavy amount of DnT and boarded heavily accordingly. Dread of Night isn’t needed in a lighter meta, but certainly helps grind well against the deck.

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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    Not of this World is embarrassing against a deck like Death and Taxes where they have no shortage of answers to Marit Lage and it even isn’t free much of the time due to Thalia, not to mention in your case at least you straight up swap Dark Confidants for them, which are fantastic in any matchup that can easily answer Marit Lage (Side note I ran 3 MD Confidant and they were terrific all weekend). In short, NotW is just flat out bad, or at the very least just inferior to other options.

    Steely Resolve isn’t something I expect to catch on in huge numbers not is it good in multiples, but it more than pulls it’s weight against white decks, Lands, and Aggro Loam. For the GP meta, I expected a heavy amount of DnT and boarded heavily accordingly. Dread of Night isn’t needed in a lighter meta, but certainly helps grind well against the deck.
    Got it. I'll drop Not of this World altogether. My logic for using it was that with 7-8 discard spells (depending on whether I maindeck Abrupt Decay or not) NotW would give me enough protection to grind through 2 answers. I could have them discard the Swords they have, GQ/Needle the Wasteland/Karakas, and then have an answer in hand after combo-ing so I could get it through. I'm not looking for NotW specifically, but rather just having 3 more protections generally. I didn't think I could afford Safekeeper because I had maindeck Confidants and I couldn't squeeze them in. Are you suggesting just dropping the NotW's and going straight to 3x Safekeeper side?

    While I have your attention, how do you feel about DNSolver's sideboarded Hymns? Also, are you saying that Dark Confidant is good against Death and Taxes?
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  16. #2776
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Got it. I'll drop Not of this World altogether. My logic for using it was that with 7-8 discard spells (depending on whether I maindeck Abrupt Decay or not) NotW would give me enough protection to grind through 2 answers. I could have them discard the Swords they have, GQ/Needle the Wasteland/Karakas, and then have an answer in hand after combo-ing so I could get it through. I'm not looking for NotW specifically, but rather just having 3 more protections generally. I didn't think I could afford Safekeeper because I had maindeck Confidants and I couldn't squeeze them in. Are you suggesting just dropping the NotW's and going straight to 3x Safekeeper side?

    While I have your attention, how do you feel about DNSolver's sideboarded Hymns? Also, are you saying that Dark Confidant is good against Death and Taxes?
    Relying on discard is iffy because it’s typically fired in the first couple turns, leaving them to draw into answers by t3-5. At that point your mana is taxed from Thalia/Port, and it’s much harder to both combo and use discard in a single turn sequence. Though that’s mostly g1, I board out most Duress post-board against DnT because there aren’t that many solid targets for them and instead rely on more permanent answers.

    Safekeepers should be maindecked, there’s no good reason not to run them since there are very few matchups they are bad.

    Sideboard Hymns are fine, they occupy the same slot as Spheres do but are much more flexible to bring in for non-combo, non-Miracles matchups. They’ve been in and out of my board for months, though I ran neither at the GP since I didn’t expect much Storm. And yes I like Dark Confidant against Death and Taxes, especially in conjunction with Dread of Night. Their clock is really slow so your life total isn’t pressured much, and Confidant draws you into Needles and sideboard cards well. It’s also why I maindecked them, to help hedge for grinding matchups like that (but at the cost of some redundancy, cutting the extraneous Maps in their place).

  17. #2777
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Thanks, I appreciate the responses. I was on the 'slow' plan right from the beginning with DRS so the turbo plan is new to me, and it's surprising how different the approach can be. What I'm also seeing is that even without DRS this deck had a considerable 'grindy' plan already. I was trying to make deck good at grinding...when it already was good at grinding. I also board out Duress against D&T (glad I got something right, lol) but it also made me want Inquisition of Kozilek because it was better against them. It is clear now that permanent-based forms of protection/interaction are much better in this matchup, and in general.

    So you ended up cutting Maps for Confidants?
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  18. #2778

    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    I figured I would pop in and share some thoughts.

    1) Hymns in my most recent SB. I wanted a card that hit both Storm and Sneak and Show. These are *not* for fair matchups because we roll all of them except for D+T. Another option to hit Storm and Sneak is Warping Wail, but Hymn is actually easier to cast in this deck.

    2) Safekeeper beats Miracles. Steely Resolve is fine vs D+T and Miracles, but it is still vulnerable to some cards that Safekeeper is not. There are definitely tradeoffs. Examples of what I'm talking about: a) Safekeeper gets shut down by Revoker out of D+T, while Steely Resolve can be Flickerwisp'd. b) Miracles is boarding in artifact/enchantment destruction like EE/Disenchant/Council's Judgment. All three hit both effects. Terminus hits Safekeeper as well. However, in general I've found Safekeeper to be excellent against them, as long as you don't attack into a surprise Snapcaster Mage block.

    3) Not of This World is good against D+T if you're on a plan of going as fast as possible, rather than trying to grind with Sylvan Library. If you are going to keep in fast mana and try to make Lage on turn2/3, Not of This World isn't bad. My current plan involves removing fast mana vs D+T, so I can't make use of NOTW.

    4) Duress is fine on the play vs D+T but can be cut on the draw when they can play Vial already. It's very relevant for taking equipment and Swords so I wouldn't auto-board it out if you are on a grindy plan in the matchup.

    5) Please play Sejiri Steppe and Bojuka Bog in your maindeck.

    6) I think cutting Safekeepers from the main will really hurt. At worst you can use it to block, at best it wins the game.

    7) People can't *play around* Safekeeper if you can resolve it with the help of a discard spell. In my entire time playing the card I have only had one opponent beat it, and that was because I misplayed. D+T opponent Wastelanded me, I just let it go rather than protect my token with the land he targeted. Because of that, opponent used mainphase Flickerwisp to eat another land, Karakas to eat another land, block with Flickerwisp, then Karakas to eat my last land, and finally Path to kill the token. That beat four activations of Safekeeper. Every other time, Safekeeper must be Revoker'd or immediately Terminus'd away. You can't *save up* enough effects to beat it. If Miracles goes for saving up lots of Plows and Snapcasters, they can get wrecked by Surgical Extraction on our side.
    If you're wondering how I produce blue mana, I copy my opponent's Island with Thespian's Stage

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    -2016 Eternal Weekend North America won by Turbo Dark Depths (I write about and develop the winning version specifically)
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  19. #2779
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Awesome! Thanks!
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  20. #2780
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    Re: [DTB] Turbo Depths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate the responses. I was on the 'slow' plan right from the beginning with DRS so the turbo plan is new to me, and it's surprising how different the approach can be. What I'm also seeing is that even without DRS this deck had a considerable 'grindy' plan already. I was trying to make deck good at grinding...when it already was good at grinding. I also board out Duress against D&T (glad I got something right, lol) but it also made me want Inquisition of Kozilek because it was better against them. It is clear now that permanent-based forms of protection/interaction are much better in this matchup, and in general.

    So you ended up cutting Maps for Confidants?
    I’ve considered running a Duress/IoK split, but the fact that IoK doesn’t take Force of Will or Sneak Attack is troublesome. If your meta is more aggro decks though IoK is fine.

    As for the deck I ran in Richmond, it was mostly stock outside the Bob swap over the Map/Into the North split many players use.

    3 Dark Confidant
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    2 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Vampire Hexmage

    4 Duress
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Crop Rotation
    4 Sylvan Scrying
    4 Pithing Needle
    4 Lotus Petal

    4 Dark Depths
    4 Thespian's Stage
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Bayou
    1 Forest
    1 Swamp
    1 Sejiri Steppe
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Ghost Quarter

    Sideboard:
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Rite of Consumption
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    1 Karakas
    1 Steely Resolve
    2 Dread of Night
    2 Bitterblossom
    1 Dryad Arbor

    The deck ran very well, and for the event (or at least my matchups) the sideboard was incredible. I predicted heavy DnT, UW, Shadow and Grixis which is how I came to this board, while not expecting much Reanimator or Storm hence the shaved Surgicals. I boarded and used everything at least once, but Bitterblossom and Steely Resolve were the most notable high impact cards that outright won games by themselves.

    The only card I wanted access to but couldn’t fit was a Maze of Ith, which would’ve won at least two of the matchups I lost if I had access to it. It likely deserves a spot in the 75, just not sure where yet.

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