[Deck] Turbo Depths

[Jorge Le Douche]

I think Mox Diamond makes a lot of sense with a high land count, but I agree that I don't see why you wouldn't squeak in 1-2x Loam in somewhere. He's clearly having some success playing for the slightly longer gameplan or at least the ability to pivot.

1x Life from the Loam seems like it would be promising, but it would only be good in game 1. In games 2+3, your opponent will have Surgical Extraction. And you can't risk accidentally dredging a Dark Depths and having it surgicaled prematurely.

Which decks does David Long side in the GSZ package against? Control decks with answers to ML I guess? Miracles/DnT/Grixis?

The GSZ package is also effectively extra copies of Sylvan Safekeeper, as well as a way to snag the Dryad Arbor in a pinch. And don't forget that Safekeeper + Gaddock Teeg is game over against ANT Storm, and will buy significant time and merit a Burning Wish from TES.

Green Sun's Zenith plus tireless tracker and gaddock teeg is good against Miracles. Against Grixis I'm not quite so sure. Theoretically, Tireless Tracker seems good for grinding. But Grixis is already a great matchup, and diluting with a "go long" package against a deck made to go long might be exactly the wrong strategy.

I would not bring in Gaddock Teeg against D+T. Maybe GSZ for more copies of Safekeeper, which is a crucial card in the matchup. Maybe Tireless Tracker but I don't know if you will have space. You have 3x Dread of Night and 1x Pithing Needle (Karakas, Vial, Port, equipment, Mother of Runes if necessary), which are definitely coming in. You only have so many slots to add extra Green Sun's Zenith shenanigans.

And you can always trim a Sylvan Safekeeper when you add a Green Sun's Zenith, without really "going down" on the number of Sylvan Safekeepers in your 60.

[Mr. Safety]

And you can always trim a Sylvan Safekeeper when you add a Green Sun's Zenith, without really "going down" on the number of Sylvan Safekeepers in your 60.

Just want to highlight this, as this is what I'm doing. Maindeck 1x Gsz, 1x Sylvan Safekeeper. Some lists have 3 functional copies of Safekeeper, which is fine, but so far I like having an extra way to get Arbor (t1 with GSZ) to ramp or protect against Edicts. I also like that it can feed Cabal Therapy with Arbor without wasting a real mana source (Verdant Catacombs) to do it. I am really thinking about a Ramanup Excavator and Reclamation Sage in the sideboard for grindy matchups. If I end up doing that, instead of 2x Safekeeper and 1x GSZ maindeck it will become 2x Gsz, 1x Safekeeper maindeck.

[Jorge Le Douche]

I would be petrified to register a list without maindeck Needles. They do so much against the format at-large that I can't see a reason to drop them for Wastelands.

I was worried about the lack of Needle too, but after playing the deck I think Wasteland has a lot of advantages. Pithing Needle is much narrower than Wasteland. In my opinion, Wasteland does MORE "against the format at-large" than Pithing Needle. When your opponent has multiple Wastelands, Needle is better than Wasteland. If your opponent has a very specific permanent in play (Sneak Attack, Jace, Vial), Needle is better. Otherwise Wasteland is better. And that is most of the time. Wasteland is just a very good magic card. Against the decks without Wastelands (specifically combo decks), the Wasteland can be valuable, even game-winning, disruption, in situations where Pithing Needle would do stone nothing.

And you can get random Wasteland wins, of course. But... don't be too aggressive. Wasteland takes the Pithing Needle slot and has a specific goal: stop Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, etc. You can't be blasting away your Wastelands on your opponents first land drop, only to have them drop a Wasteland a turn later that stops your combo cold.

[Mr. Safety]

I was worried about the lack of Needle too, but after playing the deck I think Wasteland has a lot of advantages. Pithing Needle is much narrower than Wasteland. In my opinion, Wasteland does MORE "against the format at-large" than Pithing Needle. When your opponent has multiple Wastelands, Needle is better than Wasteland. If your opponent has a very specific permanent in play (Sneak Attack, Jace, Vial), Needle is better. Otherwise Wasteland is better. And that is most of the time. Wasteland is just a very good magic card. Against the decks without Wastelands (specifically combo decks), the Wasteland can be valuable, even game-winning, disruption, in situations where Pithing Needle would do stone nothing.

And you can get random Wasteland wins, of course. But... don't be too aggressive. Wasteland takes the Pithing Needle slot and has a specific goal: stop Wasteland, Karakas, Maze of Ith, etc. You can't be blasting away your Wastelands on your opponents first land drop, only to have them drop a Wasteland a turn later that stops your combo cold.

What about an extra Ghost Quarter in the sideboard? I think when Needle is bad, other cards come in that are good (Decay, Library, Hymn, etc.) I could definitely see a 2nd Ghost Quarter in the sideboard, especially with Ramanup Excavator. Have your cake, eat it too.

[Mr. Safety]

David Long took 3-4th at SCG Baltimore with the same Mox Diamond list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20159&d=331263&f=LE

It's definitely a cool deck, with a lands-like ability to grind longer games (and 4x Confidant for extra draw power.) Without having Mox Diamonds I can't play the list, but I think he's correct in playing a grindy maindeck. I have really liked what Confidant does for the maindeck and I'm getting a bit sour on ESG and Expedition Map. In many games I play map and then it just sits there while I utilize my mana elsewhere. I'll probably get the 4th Scrying in there. ESG providing only green mana is an issue, petal is far and away superior at smoothing out mana while still ramping fast. T1 GSZ into Arbor ramps me as well.

Here's my current list:

4x Hexmage
3x Confidant
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Dryad Arbor

4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Sylvan Scrying
2x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
1x GSZ
4x Lotus Petal

4x Depths
4x Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Urborg
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x Khalni Garden
1x Bojuka Bog

Sideboard
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Sylvan Library
1x Karakas
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm

Maindeck I'm thinking:

-1 Expedition Map
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-1 Khalni Garden
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard I'm thinking:
-2 Sylvan Library
+1 Ramanup Excavator
+1 Gaddock Teeg

That should be pretty decent. I don't have the Mox Diamonds, but I don't like cutting too many tutors either. I would never go below 8 tutors, and I'm at the bare minimum there ATM (4 Crop/3 Scrying/1 Map.) I don't think the draw/filter options (Confidant, Library) can completely replace the tutors; on the contrary, they help you dig into them more consistently while also helping to dig into protection or combo pieces.

I've done a bunch of test games, and I have to say that Therapy/Dryad Arbor/GSZ is definitely my style. They're doing exactly what I want them to do, and it's good stuff.

[downtoonelife]

ESG providing only green mana is an issue

Just to give a helpful info/tip about ESG vs Lotus Petal. Probably everyone knows this already, but I just realized this when I fought a match against Eldrazi. My opponent had a turn 1 and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst on our 3rd game him playing first. I won with thespian stage, dark depths and 2 ESG. Petal wouldn't be able to help me win fast on that situation. ESG also help me win against a Lands deck with a Root Maze sb.

Turbo, Midrange or Slow Depths I guess really depends on someone's preference. I'm playing Turbo for now. Not sure though what will happen once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

[Mr. Safety]

Just to give a helpful info/tip about ESG vs Lotus Petal. Probably everyone knows this already, but I just realized this when I fought a match against Eldrazi. My opponent had a turn 1 and turn 2 Thorn of Amethyst on our 3rd game him playing first. I won with thespian stage, dark depths and 2 ESG. Petal wouldn't be able to help me win fast on that situation. ESG also help me win against a Lands deck with a Root Maze sb.

Turbo, Midrange or Slow Depths I guess really depends on someone's preference. I'm playing Turbo for now. Not sure though what will happen once Assassin's Trophy becomes legal.

Great insight, thanks. It helps play around Thalia quite a bit better as well. Once I start going down the path of adding value elements, something has to give. It seems like the turbo versions typically sideboard out fast mana for the value elements, so it makes sense if I want to make a more grindy deck in the main then fast mana is the place to cut. It doesn't feel good to go down to 2 ESG, but as I said, I'm not willing to cut the disruption (discard, GSZ/Safekeepr, needles) or go below 8 tutors. It's really the only place to cut, other than Confidants.

[ComplexPants]

ESG is hidden mana. Hidden mana makes people do miscalculations, like fire off dazes at bad times, or forget that you can make Merit a turn or two early. She is also a beater in a pinch. Honestly, that card has won more games than petal. Also, note that you can't counter ESG's mana ability.

[jolssoni]

ESG is hidden mana. Hidden mana makes people do miscalculations, like fire off dazes at bad times, or forget that you can make Merit a turn or two early. She is also a beater in a pinch. Honestly, that card has won more games than petal. Also, note that you can't counter ESG's mana ability.

This. They also get better in multiples since it's unlikely to draw more than one in a relatively short game without card selection so it's rational for your opponent to not play around extras.

[Mr. Safety]

Just so I understand this correctly: If I only have 7 slots open for fast mana, I should prioritize ESG over Lotus Petal? Or are people just saying don't underestimate the value of ESG?

[Darkgobs]

David Long took 3-4th at SCG Baltimore with the same Mox Diamond list:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20159&d=331263&f=LE

There is a lot of things to say about David Long's list.

1) it's a more grindy version indeed, with 4 Dark confident + 1 Sylvan MD, 4 Abrupt Decay MD and 4 Mox Diamond as accelerant.
2) he plays 29 lands, including 1 Maze of Ith and 3 Wasteland.
3) 0 Needle (1 in sideboard)
4) to make space, he cutted 3 discard spells, going down to 5. As for the tutor, only 4 Crop + 2 Sylvan Scrying remain.
5) 1 Gaddock Teeg in the 15, to cast with 2 GSZ and the Mox Diamond.
6) Grindy list, but still 3 Sylvan Safekeeper in the maindeck (this card is true mvp!).

I will test this, I am very curious to see how the 3 wastelands will play instead of the 3 Needles.

Now, question to the plenum: how would you guys side with Long's list against Miracle? Especially, what would you board out?

[filln]

5) 1 Gaddock Teeg in the 15, to cast with 2 GSZ and the Mox Diamond.

Also with Sejiri Steppe and Karakas to generate white mana.

[ComplexPants]

Just so I understand this correctly: If I only have 7 slots open for fast mana, I should prioritize ESG over Lotus Petal? Or are people just saying don't underestimate the value of ESG?

More don't underestimate the value. Double black is important for Hexmage, which is where petal is better. But when cutting fast mana for sideboarding, I take petal first generally.

[Mr. Safety]

More don't underestimate the value. Double black is important for Hexmage, which is where petal is better. But when cutting fast mana for sideboarding, I take petal first generally.

I've been doing it wrong! Lol, just kidding. I typically sideboard heavily into black (Hymn to Tourach) so I typically cut ESG's (which I think is reasonable.) Maindeck Confidant also changes the dynamic quite a bit.

[Hockeypr0]

Hey guys, I've been on a mission to find the sweet spot between Lands and Turbo depths and finally found a balance. I've been playing similar lists for a couple months now but the most recent David Long lists have really inspired the kind of playstyle I was looking for. GB Turbo Lands has the advantage of being more "Turbo" than conventionnal RG, and is more resilient/grindy/controllish than Turbo. Here's the list I've been up to this past week :

Land (35)
1x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Pit
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
2x Maze of Ith
1x Swamp
4x Thespian's Stage
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (5)

4x Exploration
1x Manabond

Creature (8)

4x Dark Confidant
4x Vampire Hexmage

Instant (4)

4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (4)

4x Life from the Loam

Artifact (4)

4x Mox Diamond

Sideboard (15)

3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Choke
2x Dread of Night
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tireless Tracker

I've been lucky enough to summon Marit Lage on T1 twice last week ( "Mox Mox DD Vamp Land Land Land" and also "Land Urborg DD Thespian Manabond" on T1. The deck is also very grindy but relies heavily on the graveyard for card advantage and recusion. With the arrival of Bob, I can now stop relying on my graveyard and play a similar game as "Slow depths". I feel like Bob is really the glue that holds this deck together flipping cards for zero and beating with Hexmage (if needs be) will eventuslly kill your opponent (which I couldn't really do with my last list). There's also a lot of versatility with the lands package. I didn't include Tabernacle since my draws are very often quick enough to kill on T3-4 so Glacial Chasm and 2 Maze of iths is enough for protection (1 knight will kill fast and be almost unaffected by Tabernacle). In long games, I have the 7 land destruction package to grind my opponent to a zero land board, etc.

The main reason for my post is basically to get knowledge on how to play agaisnt UB shadow decks. I feel overwhelmed by their 2-3 threats and Glacial Chasm doesn't keep me safe because of their wastelands. They also disrupt the combo (with wasteland or counterspell my crop of rotation) so it's been a tough matchup. What kind of plays should I try to do in order to improve my matches?

[Sinkhole]

List looks very interested. I am unfamilar with Lands and new to Depths, so not sure if that helps. You said Bob is the glue of the deck, if it`s so and it really relies on it, I would consider to add 2 Librarys, when it`s possible to go down to 33 Lands. It´s not Bob, but it works similar and is much harder to handle for your opponent, also it`s a hell of a grinding station and copy number 5 and 6 of Bob, so you got a higher drawing rate for your opening hands. And like in traditional Turbo Depths you might think of some Protection for Swords and Edict the 20/20 is very vulnerable. Dryad Abor would a option against Edicts, for Swords Sylvan Safekeeper. But I don`t know how much you can go away from traditional Lands.

[ComplexPants]

That is an interesting deck, but it seems very much you have switched out Red for black. Which basically means you don't have gamble, but bob instead. And your secondary win condition of a lock and punishing fire is gone. Too bad you can't loam off of bob's trigger. That would just be gross.

[Sinkhole]

Have you guys thrown away the fast mana turbo plan or are you still on it? I stick with it. I have just returned from a local 5 round tournament and catched a 4 - 1. I have only lost to Moon Stompy.
I haven`t made notes, because I was to excited and after the 3 - 0 really thrilled too . I won against ANT (2:1), Ub Shadow`s (2:0), Deathblade (2:0), Moon Stompy (0:2), Sneak and Show (2:1).
I think the deck is still in a mediocore - good position, but I am not sure, if it will be so after Ass Trophy see some play. I won many of my matches by going off fast on turn 3 - 4 and I played full package of fast mana with 2 Sylvan Library for some grind. So I don`t know, if trimming the deck to Slow Depths is the right way for moving it forward.

Regards

[Mr. Safety]

I'm on fast mana still (4 petal/3 esg) and Confidant x3 maindeck. T1 Bob's are really, really good. I see no reason to play slow depths anymore, not without DRS. Shaman enabled fast starts while getting your threat count higher.

[Sinkhole]

I'm on fast mana still (4 petal/3 esg) and Confidant x3 maindeck. T1 Bob's are really, really good. I see no reason to play slow depths anymore, not without DRS. Shaman enabled fast starts while getting your threat count higher.

Yes I think fast mana + Bob or Library is the way to go. I played one Inquistion of K. over the 3rd Library, but I think Library would be better in that slot. Do you think Trophy will hurt the deck really hard?