Has anyone looked into using Leyline of Sanctity as a card out of the board? The double white makes it not terribly castable later, but it helps stop quite a few combo decks right from the get-go as well as hand disruption, while also stopping edict effects. Seems like it might be worth trying, especially in a version that just tries to turbo out the combo right away without worrying about the long game (i.e. a deck with petals/ESG rather than diamonds and libraries).
What would you cut? Leyline shuts off discard and edicts, but we already have reliable ways to deal with that. Discard slows us down, but our lands can't be discarded, one of the decks strengths along with the combo being safe from countermagic.
The eternal problem of Leylines, especially in a combo deck, is that it forces you to mulligan aggressively. Are you basically looking at Storm? I've been sideboarding a couple of Collective Brutality as additional discard/removal against Miracles, Grixis Control, and Grixis Delver. That works just fine against Storm as well, getting discard up to 9-10 slots. That's a really decent plan against Storm already. I don't think Leylines are necessary. Burn is a favorable matchup already, so Leyline doesn't really warrant slots there either.
So besides Storm, why Leyline of Sanctity?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The thing about library is that you only really need to see 1/2 max per game. Drawing past the first one is already a feel bad. Fetches are a 1 life 0 mana way to look at a new 3 vs spending 1-2 mana on a shuffle effect.
Solnox on MTGO
Miracles is a good matchup for depths. Quote me on this
Griselbrand is not an interesting creature.
Dread it. Run from it. Marit Lage still arrives
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
4x Vampire Hexmage
3x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Dark Confidant
2x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Lotus Petal
3x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
4x Sylvan Scrying
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Sejiri Steppe
1x bojuka bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x karakas
2x Rite of Consumption
2x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
2x Collective Brutality
1x Abrupt Decay
I'm working on a fairly specific sideboard guide as well. I have the slot changes laid out, but no explanations added yet. It would be specific to my particular build, not a general guide mind you.
EDIT: I ended up adding the 4th Sylvan Scrying.
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-07-2019 at 12:50 PM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
That's fair, I was mainly thinking of storm/burn and edicts, but I think you are right that it just isn't worth having to mulligan so aggresively. Running dryad arbor is probably a good enough measure against edicts, and I imagine you bring in collective brutality and maybe choke against storm in your list? Thanks for your thoughts!
Collective Brutality and Surgical Extraction. Choke is too slow and does too little to shut their mana off. Choke is for Miracles, Grixis Control, and other blue control decks. I don't board it in for Delver decks currently because I have Brutality to clear blockers and help that matchup (which doesn't need too much help, honestly.) For Storm the maindeck already has 7 discards and Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, paired with a fast clock myself. It's actually pretty close to Storm in speed: play some discard then go off turn 2-4 and win. I only CropRot for Bog to prevent losing the turn they go off, otherwise it's generally better to just make a 20/20 and force them to have an answer. I mulligan to discard against Storm, the race is just too close to rely on speed alone. The one exception is if I have a nut-draw into a t1 Marit Lage on the play. It doesn't happen often, mind you.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Thanks for the sideboarding advice! One last question for now if you don't mind me asking, but why blooming marsh? I was thinking about it, and the only thing I could think of off the top of my head was submerge or maybe surgical, but I wasn't sure how much those concerns would be worth compared to the risk of playing one with too many lands in play.
1) It's mostly for budget reasons. When I got the first Bayou it was at $250 for slightly played. Finding one for less than $300 right now is a pipe dream.
2) The enters tapped clause doesn't come up very often with Blooming Marsh. If I have 3 lands in play already I don't really need any more mana. It's there to get my initial black and green counts up to 14 (I am counting ESG and Petal as initial mana sources.)
3) Submerge is rare. If I were to go the submerge-proof route I would go with 2-3 Blooming Marsh and use Llanowar Wastes instead of Fetch/Basic/Bayou. I don't advocate this. Not playing basics can lose you a small percentage of games where you don't have a basic, you don't have a Pithing Needle, and your opponent kills your lands with Wasteland.
4) I fetch basics much more often than Bayou, and it isn't even close. If I have a turn 1 Needle then I fetch into Bayou, but more often than not I'm playing discard turn 1. I'd say, in very rough terms, that I fetch for basics about 65-70% percent of the time in the blind (t1 or I don't know my opponent's deck yet.)
I haven't had mana issues, like literally zero, from having Blooming Marsh in the deck. It can be a dead draw after land number 3, but any non-combo land after number 3 is usually a dead draw. The one exception is Verdant Catacombs because it can fetch Dryad Arbor for Diabolic Edict or Cabal Therapy flashback. The important part of Marsh is that it's dual land that enters untapped early when you need it, this is a fast combo deck after all. We are already preparing to deal with Wasteland and we're already cold to Blood Moon; playing another non-basic isn't a risk. Regarding Bayou, #1 is far and away more important than Bayou 2-3. Start there and upgrade when you can. I have other priorities for my mtg disposable income right now, but if I can find a good trade or decent deal on Bayou #2 I'll take it.
EDIT: Here is my rough draft of a sideboard guide. Again, it's particular to my list and it doesn't have explanations. I do update it whenever I change the deck, usually within a couple days. Make of it what you will.
D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -4 ESG
Grixis Control - +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -4 ESG, -3 Needle, -1 Petal
Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, -3 Petal, -4 ESG
Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -4 Petal, -4 ESG,
Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
RUG Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant
Last edited by Mr. Safety; 01-04-2019 at 12:13 PM.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Makes sense lol, I completely agree the first is always the most important. And thanks so much for the sb write up! The choices all make sense, and yeah, at a point you just need to choose what you are not going to address super heavily like blood moon as otherwise you warp your deck too much. Nice to have an out, but at a point sometimes is just wrecks your day.
Removing...what? I have found the 4th ESG cut to be unproblematic. There really isn't anything else to cut (and I'm already bummed I can't squeeze in the 4th Needle.)
EDIT: DOH! I didn't realize it was at 59 cards maindeck. That slot will likely become Pithing Needle #4, Scrying #4, or Duress #3 before I add the 4th ESG. I suppose I could get the 3rd Decay main and free up a sideboard slot, but I'm not sure I want to do that. An extra Ghost Quarter sideboard has some appeal for me.
Quite often when I am struggling in topdeck mode that 4th ESG just isn't any help. I'm not sure anything outside of combo pieces helps really, but having a vanilla 2/2 for 3 or an extra green mana is pretty 'meh'.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I need to fix that. I update the guide after changes, must have missed it.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I updated the sideboard guide. I ended up putting in the 4th Sylvan Scrying for the open slot, so this reflects that. I feel that Sylvan Scrying is the right spot because I noticed I was siding in a lot of Libraries in different matchups. Cutting 2 drops for 2 drops makes sense. I may be completely wrong in this, but again, it's a rough draft. I also want to maintain a critical mass of tutors for consistencies' sake.
D&T +2 Rite, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress, -3 ESG
Miracles +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, -3 Needle, -3 ESG, -1 Petal
Grixis Control +2 Library, +2 Rite, +2 Choke, +1 Lili, +1 Charm, -3 ESG, -3 Needle, -2 Scrying
Lands +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -2 Duress, - 2 Therapy
UW Stoneblade +2 Choke, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, -4 Petal, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying
Esperblade +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Library, +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +1 Liliana, -3 ESG, -2 Scrying, -2 Petal
Storm +2 Surgical, +2 Brutality, +1 Charm, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Confidant
Burn +2 Rite, +1 Decay, +2 Brutality, +1 Library, -3 Thoughtseize, -3 Confidant,
Dredge +2 Surgical, +1 Decay, +2 Rite, -2 Duress, -3 Thoughtseize,
Reanimator +2 Surgical, +1 Karakas, -3 Thoughtseize
Delver +1 Decay, +2 Library, +2 Brutality, -3 ESG, -2 Petal
Shadow +1 Decay, +2 Library, -3 ESG
Show and Tell +2 Surgical, +2 Rite, +1 Karakas, +2 Brutality, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Decay
Eldrazi +1 Decay, +1 Deluge, -2 Duress
Goblins +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, -2 Therapy, -2 Duress
Infect +1 Decay, +1 Charm, , +1 Deluge, +1 Lili, +2 Rite, -3 Confidant, -2 Safekeeper, -1 Needle
Dragon Stompy +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +2 Surgical, +2 Library, -2 Needle, -2 Safekeeper, -2 Therapy
Elves +1 Lili, +1 Decay, +1 Charm, +1 Deluge, +2 Brutality, -2 Safekeeper, -3 Needle, -1 Confidant
I'm still trying to figure out the Stoneblade matchup, I haven't played it much. I know I want ways to kill TNN, but I don't know if I want to go so deep into fighting on a fair axis. It's less controlling than Miracles or Grixis but it has a lot of similar elements (Force, StP, Jace.) It also usually has Wastelands in some number, so I don't cut Needles like I do against Miracles/GrixisC. I really need to get in a bunch more reps with this deck to nail it down.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20984&d=339205&f=LE
Traitor! Even DNSolver is switching over to Mox Diamond.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The Brainstorm/Stifle splash w/Flusterstorm sideboard has been a known quantity for a while, Negator77 has been on it since forever. The Mox Diamond change was what surprised me because DNSolver has been advocating for the Petal/ESG plan for a long time.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
This was his last big message, pre-Brainstorm but Flusterstorm splash. 12/5/18, so just about a month ago.
My big beefs with the list is 1) no basic lands and 2) what does Brainstorm do that tutors don't do? I could be convinced of zero basics if you're just tossing the Blood Moon/Back to Basics matchups out the window because it's on the downward trend but I can't be convinced to add 'air' to a deck that is already uber-consistent without Brainstorm. Turbo Depths is easily the most consistent non-blue 2-color deck I've ever played.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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