[Deck] Turbo Depths

[Negator77']

its a terrible plan. First you have to tutor for it, then you have to copy an island, then you have to wait 15 turns.

Is everything ok man? Some of your responses have been a bit edgy the last couple of days.

It's not uncommon for the Miracles match-up to drag out and the card doesn't have to deck them to be effective. At the very least....it turbo charges extractions, can strip them of win conditions that they don't have many of to begin with, and can mess with top at critical junctions in addition to the possible slow decking. I haven't personally tested it yet, but certainly will give it a spin... especially since my version already has plenty of blue sources (no stage required).

First post in a bit, so i haven't had the chance to say..... Congrats Oran!!

[sdematt]

I had a list for HexDepths months ago, then put it on hold. Guess it might be worth posting it.

I was thinking something like:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Dark Confidant
16

2 Green Sun Zenith
2 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 STP
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
2 Crop Rotation
23

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
7 Fetches
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
22

//

1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip

Prelim list from months ago. Basically try to combo, and if not, grind for value. Less combo pieces since you have 6 tutors.

[ComplexPants]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ternal-weekend

@DNSolver, there is a nice shout out to you in there and the rest of the online community who tuned this deck.

[jdmdave]

Well done. +1.

Have we come to a consensus on a sideboarding plan, yet? DnT is still pretty sketchy.

[ComplexPants]

I am going to try dread of night in place of the Grip and Orb. Depending on how much BR reanimator takes over, I may go back to 4 extractions though. The Crucible was so good against lands, and wasteland that I want to keep it.

But since EW, I really haven't played at all. Stupid real life with work and all.

[Izza]

In my meta BR Reanimator is exploding right now. It feels like almost 30% are running some sort of Reanimator.
I tought about Grafdigger's Cage in my SB, maybe cutting 1xDecay and 1xMaze of Ith. It shuts down Elves a little bit and even for Dredge it's a valid option.
What do you guys think of 2-4xDeathrite Shaman MD in the GB-build? It helps us to Ramp, eats cards like Wasteland to deny Life from the Loam and it is great against Storm/Reanimator as well. Even against Dredge it is solid.
But what to cut...?
I know we play the Bog and can crop into it, but I feel like BR Reanimator asks more questions than we have answers.
Regards :)

[jdmdave]

I'm 100% on board with the 4x surgical + 1x karakas + 1x ith plan vs reanimator. Hell, maybe we should consider LOTV?

As an aside, a brainstorming session with our team's resident ANT player has led to the idea of combining the doomsday engine with turbo depths. I'm still probably going to sleeve up a more traditional build for the GP, but initial playtesting results have been pretty positive, particularly in grindier topdeck war matchups. The base combo is to go doomsday into (A) your missing combo piece or (b) Manamorphose, Brainstorm, Hexmage, Dark Depths, Disruption Piece of Choice. As for how it works, you manamorphose for UB, Brainstorm, Play Disruption/sandbag not of this world, hexmage depths, then kill them. The reason this is used over more the traditional emrakul/lab maniac approach is that the entire combo only requires 2 extra cards in the MD - both of which aren't completely dead if you aren't comboing off. The deck feels really strong as there are just so many avenues to victory.

Maindeck - Doomsday Depths

* 4 Urborg
* 4 Thespian
* 4 Dark Depths
* 4 Blooming Marsh
* 2 Gemstone Mine
* 1 Sejiri Steppe
* 1 Bojuka Bog
* 1 Ghost Quarter
* 1 Snow-Covered Swamp
* 1 Snow-Covered Forest
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 3 Into the North
* 4 Thoughtseize
* 4 Duress
* 4 Lotus Petal
* 4 Elvish Spirit Guide
* 1 Brainstorm
* 1 Manamorphose
* 4 Vampire Hexmage
* 3 Pithing Needle
* 2 Not of this World
* 3 Doomsday

Sideboard

* 4 Surgical Extraction (3-4)
* 4 Sphere of Resistance
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Karakas
* 1 Maze of Ith
* 1 Pithing Needle
* 1 Not of this World (1-2)

[ottomanottoman]

Played a legacy event that a store nearby runs monthly. I went 2-3 by starting out 2-0 UW miracle/landstill and DnT then loosing 3 straight against Storm, Miracles, and 4c Delver. The latter 3 losses were from some form of bad keeps and egregious misplays on my end.

My list:
4 hexmage
4 ESG
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 IoK
4 Scrying
4 Crop
3 Expedition Map
3 Not of this World
1 Sylvan Library
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Verdant
4 Depths
4 Stage
3 Urborg
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
1 Forest

-Sideboard-
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Surgical
1 Karakas
1 Nephalia Drownyard

Some things of note, I didn't care for Sphere too much. I felt like it just wasn't enough of a haymaker against the decks I was thinking of bringing it in against and I will probably switch to chalice as I acquire them. Drownyard is cute and I like it, but I don't like it over Maze of Ith and will be using maze for the additional land slot. I'd like to try swapping up the numbers in my sideboard to make room for a grip and an additional not of this world too and see how that goes.

[DNSolver]

That Doomsday list...pretty sweet.

However, I am only looking for tech to beat Miracles reliably. I would be willing to put slots just for the matchup in the maindeck, but I think that even if we resolved Doomsday, our best piles would be:

1) assuming we have the combo already and have time to draw 4 cards:

Decay (for Counterbalance, to resolve the Needle next turn)
Needle (for Top/Terminus)
Not of This World (for StP/Karakas)
Not of This World
Sejiri Steppe

2) if we need to combo relatively quickly and need Brainstorm, I would rather have a blue land in the deck instead of Manamorphose:

Brainstorm
Decay
Needle
Not of This World
Sejiri Steppe

Both of these piles assume that we have the combo already, that we aren't Blood Moon'd, that there is no Mentor, and can still lose to 2nd Counterbalance, a counterspell on our Needle, etc. Even if we tried replacing something in the pile with a discard spell to beat a counterspell, I don't think it will work simply because Miracles with Top active is too powerful. I would rather have Sylvan Libraries main to draw toward Drownyard / super protected combo / answers to Mentor / Blood Moon / Counterbalance, as I have recently run to a 5-0 league finish.


tl;dr: Doomsday doesn't fix Miracles matchup. Would rather have Sylvan Library. Let me know if you find a better Doomsday pile.

Also, thanks to MTGGoldfish and friends for the shout-out.

[jdmdave]

Yeah, I here you. Doomsday looks sweet, but its probably too cute. What is your recommendation on my 75 from the previous page? I REALLY like the 3rd into the north over sylvan library, but I agree that 1-2 sylvan in the board is pretty key for out CAing Miracles. That said, I'm not willing to go down to 3 surgicals as I think the GP will be overrun with reanimator.

Other thing - I'm in a weird situation where I have playsets of fetches/forces/wastelands/snaps/bobs, but no dual lands. I'm willing to shell out for ONE Bayou, but do you think there is a big difference between the following two manabases?

* 12 Combo lands
* 2 Snow lands
* 3 Utility Lands
* 4 Marsh
* 2 Gemstone Mine

vs

* 12 Combo Lands
* 2 Snow Lands
* 3 Utility Lands (Bojuka/Steppe/GQ)
* 3 Marsh
* 2 Verdant
* 1 Bayou

[DNSolver]

I have been happy with the Verdant Catacomb manabase since I started playing the deck. I play 2 Bayou and instead of the 3rd I play a Blooming Marsh. However, the keys to the Verdant manabase is a) bluffing in G1 b) fetching around Blood Moon from Miracles decks. If you play a fetchless manabase you WILL lose to prepared Miracles players with Blood Moons unless you combo very quickly.

For my 3 Sylvan Libraries I cut cards that I found myself boarding out in multiple matchups because they are only in the main as a hedge. These are Not of This World, Pithing Needle, and Duress. Therefore, i figured that Library can help me find these cards in the matchups I need them. That's the theory at least. So -1 Not of This World, -1 Needle, -1 Duress fits in 3 Libraries. I don't think i would ever want a 4th, and the Libraries themselves are boarded out in some matchups.

For your list specifically, I recommend cutting the 4th Urborg for another Marsh or the 2nd Bayou. This was the first change I made to the deck when I picked it up. Edit: oh wow I missed the Into the Norths. I cut those for Maps and really recommend them. Finding Ghost Quarter / Sejiri Steppe easily is very very important in a lot of matchups.

[ComplexPants]

I played 1 library main and would not take it out. I also took out 1 duress for it. I figured the difference between 7 and 8 discard was small and Library can win you games, where the extra duress won't necessarily. I would debate going up to 2, but I don't think I would take out a NoTW or Needle. I feel like those cards are too important for this deck to function. That being said, if Reanimator takes over, ditching a NoTW may be correct.

I haven't been super impressed by Maze. It just feels like a stall for this deck, but doesn't help you win. I kept thinking it is a great card, but in what match up do I really care about it? D&T will port it or waste land it asap, doesn't matter in Miracles, eldrazi will go big and wide and mostly ignore it, against lands it may be important, but they will just eventually wasteland lock us or burn us out, Delver we are strongly favored against and Shardless I just didn't see it as super important. The only deck I could come up with where it would be very useful is if Blade decks become popular again.

I think DNSolver is correct here. Finding ways to make miracles and D&T closer to 50/50 matchups is important.

[jdmdave]

i could get behind shaving a NoTW for a library, but into the north has been an allstar for me. Turn 1 ITN into Hexmage/Thespian has been a consistent winning line. Regarding Bayou, do you think I can get away with 1 bayou, 2 verdants, 12 combo lands, 2 snow lands, 3 utility lands, 3 fast lands? I haven't actually found it THAT hard to get around blood moon between the into the norths, crop rotations, and fast mana, but I do see the value of a bayou.

As for the sideboard, are we sure miracles is really that bad? +3 Decay, +4 Surgical (particularly for ondemand shuffling), +1 pithing needle, & +4 Sphere (slow them down) is pretty strong.

Maze is a pretty strong sideboard card vs reanimator, Nicfit, & goyf decks.

Non-Doomsday List

* 12 Combo Lands (Urborg is just so good at enabling natural turn 2 hexmage/turn 3 natural land wins)
* 3 Utility Lands (Sejiri, GQ, Bojuka. Bojuka I feel is stronger than Karakas as the ability to tap for B is helpful in powering out Hexmage)
* 2 Snow Lands
* 3 Fastlands (I did the probability math and found the 4th to be a bit clunky)
* 2 Verdant
* 1 Bayou
* 4 Sylvan
* 4 Crop Rotation
* 2-3 Into the North
* 0-1 Sylvan Library
* 3 Not of this world
* 3 Pithing Needle
* 4 Duress
* 4 Thoughtseize
* 4 Hexmage
* 4 Petal
* 4 ESG

Sideboard

* 1 Karakas
* 1 Maze of Ith
* 4 Surgical
* 4 Sphere
* 3 Abrupt Decay
* 1 Pithing Needle
* 1 Krosan Grip (Useful vs. Miracles & DnT)

[ComplexPants]

Turbo depths got 15th at the SCG Legacy Open in Baltimore

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=109268

Deck is making a name for itself. Interesting SB plan, as well as the main Toxic Deluge.

[jdmdave]

Looks like he cut the not of this worlds for an ancient tomb, sylvan library, 4th pithing needle, and deluge. Interesting.

[ComplexPants]

You list looks solid. If a miracles player know how to play against the deck, they are very favored in my opinion. My good friend is a miracles player and we played a lot before EW and I would say once he figured the deck out I was winning maybe 25-33% of games. Now he was playing the legends version so he had a lot of cliques, Vensers and swords. He also had 2 Karakas main so it was a very hard matchup.

He recommended choke and Crucible for the match. Just keep jamming the combo and eventually miracles won't have and answer. I am debating about finding a spot for a second GQ. They have consistently been useful for me.


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[jdmdave]

My typical line vs. miracles (assuming no CB) is to try to discard+surgical a terminus, then try to craft a hand to power through 2ish STPs. I feel that the Karakas, Ith, Surgical, Sphere, and Abrupt decay slots are all pretty much set in stone.

My main concern with crucible (why not loam?) is resolving it, whereas Choke doesn't really help us force our gameplan through. 2nd GQ is pretty spicy, but Miracles typically runs 4 island + 2 plains.

[DNSolver]

I have a buddy online who I've been testing with and we're trying to solve the Miracles vs Depths matchup to equity. He plays a typical Predict Miracles list and I'm playing close to a stock turbo list, so this analysis is based on my observations of these particular varieties of Miracles and Turbo Depths only - this should still be pretty valuable because these seem to be the most played versions of the respective decks.

Here are some typical lines of our games, mostly describing post-board:

1) We have a super fast combo, either unexpected because of Spirit Guides or protected with Discard / Not of This World that gets in under them or when they tap low. Alternately, they keep the proverbial "basic mountain + top" hand and die to t1 needle into turn 3-4 combo.

2) We cast some discard and search out our combo pieces, but get locked under Countertop until we find Decay, and rinse and repeat. This happens until a) they cast Mentor and win pretty much instantly, b) we follow up our Decay with a needle on Top (and perhaps a needle on Jace) and we are still in the game.

3) If running the Drownyard plan, we play this Splinter-Twin style of tempo gameplan where we're sitting there with Depths + Stage but they can't play efficiently while we aggressively search out Drownyard with our open mana, then use their end step to mill. This creates awkward scenarios for them where they need to keep hitting land drops with us while also keeping removal on top of their deck.

4) We get immediately blood mooned and die. Alternately, we get blood mooned, then get out of it, and still die to counter/top + surgical on our Decays, Mentor, or Jace. Very few times have I lived long after blood moon, particularly because of nasty sequences like EOT Clique -> main phase Blood Moon with white up for Terminus / StP.

I am still 100% on the Drownyard plan, just need to learn how to play it a bit better. My testing buddy thinks that Surgical isn't very good for what we're trying to do, so I need to re-think the boarding and perhaps the maindeck a bit. My newest list has these changes from the turbo version:

-1 Pithing Needle (down to 2)
-1 Not of This World (down to 2)
-1 Duress (down to 3, 7 discard spells total)
-1 Sylvan Scrying (down to 3, 10 tutors total, could play around with the numbers of Map vs Scrying but I like Map because of...)

+4 Sensei's Divining Top

This changes the matchup on a few axes. We no longer have the ability to name Top on Needle, but any opening hand with Top is pretty great, particularly if you can take their top or force with a discard spell. However, Needle can still name Jace, which usually is left in post-board and they are usually willing to fight it with Wear/Tear that they brought in anyway. This also allows us to play around Clique better as well as find crucial cards such as Abrupt Decay for Blood Moon / Counterbalance, needle for jace, land drops and searches for Drownyard, or even to accumulate protection in our hand to go for a combo kill early. I have tried Sylvan Library but I actually think it does not look at enough cards without exposing you to an early Mentor / Clique kill from paying so much life.

As far as sideboarding, I have not altered my sideboard. I plan on keeping Tops, so I will also keep my Spheres of Resistance over Chalices for now. I am still opposed to cramming a few three-mana haymakers such as Crucible and Choke into the board because a) they don't fight my BR Reanimator variant particularly well, b) we won't draw it very often, and c) if we draw it late such as in scenarios 2 or 4, it doesn't necessarily do enough. *Be aware that there is no one card/plan that will just win the game, because Miracles is a good deck. Same way that people can't put Karakas into play against us and go to sleep.*

I am completely open to debate on these thoughts. Would love to hear Oran's thoughts on this, considering he has a lot of Miracles matchup experience.

@jdmdave see my comments on expensive-mana-cost haymakers above. There are enough answers that naming one will not be enough, and I don't think we're planning on mulling aggressively to find one.

@ComplexPants please comment on my ideas above. Also, that top 16 list looks interesting, not sure why that sol land is in there though... My best explanation is for turn 1 Null Rod and turn 2 Choke?

[jdmdave]

Well stated DN Solver. I will test a 10 set of Nephalia drownyard in the 15th slot and report back. Conversely, have you considered stuff like geier reach sanitarium/mikoro? Less blue intensive, but unfortunately draws them cards.

[DNSolver]

Can you explain a line that applies pressure to Miracles with either of those two lands? I'm not seeing one.

I'm desperately trying to take you seriously on these.