For those not aware, a (semi-)new version of Commander is making the rounds right now, called Tiny Leaders. You can read more about it here, and see the Banned list here. The gist of it is that you're playing 1v1 with 25 starting life, no Commander damage, a 49 card deck plus general, and normal Commander deckbuilding rules with the added stipulation that no card in your deck can cost more than three mana. There is also an option for a ten card sideboard.
My first take on a deck for this format is based on the recently spoiled Shu Yun, and is patterned off of UR/x Delver lists:
General: Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Phantasmal Image
Seeker of the Way
Snapcaster Mage
Spellstutter Sprite
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Geist of Saint Traft
Mantis Rider
Monastery Mentor
Vendilion Clique
Jeskai Ascendancy
Threads of Disloyalty
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Sphinx's Revelation
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Cyclonic Rift
Lightning Helix
Electrolyze
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Remand
Distortion Strike
Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Wasteland
3 Island
Plains
Mountain
Sideboard:
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Oblivion Ring
Flusterstorm
Counterspell
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Pyroclasm
Anger of the Gods
The plan is pretty standard: tempo beatdown. Not having Force is a bummer, and I'm not convinced Daze is all that good in this format as a one-of, but the counters I did include should be sufficient to keep the opponent from doing anything too devastating while I clock with Shu Yun and friends. I may want to add another [c]Distortion Strike[/c]-style card at some point if Strike itself turns out to be good (and with Shu Yun, D-Strike represents 20 damage over two turns).
Since I couldn't just load up on Delvers and Swiftspears and call it a day, my creature selections may look a bit off. Generally, I wanted my creatures to do at least one of three things: provide disruption, hit above their weight, or generate additional bodies. Some, like Brimaz, fill more than one role. It's possible that I should be running Stoneforge plus an equipment package (since equipment will trigger prowess when cast), but Clamp and Jitte are banned and the legal Swords of X and Y are probably too slow for this style of deck. That leaves...Bonesplitter and I don't know what else.
Interesting foramt nad decks, i like how this is different from usual EDH monstrosities with high cmc stuff and such.
I guess the Swords are solid choices, especially as they protect the dude and can win the game on their own.
SoFF is probably the best legal Sword. It gives you protection from black, which is huge because black is very good in this format, and can provide double discard with Shu Yun's double strike-granting trigger. SoFI is probably the second best Sword but I'd prefer not to give my creatures protection from my general. The other two legal Swords seem not great.
Doing a quick search for equipment, the following seem playable:
Adventuring Gear - build your own Steppe Lynx.
Bonesplitter - cheap, useful bonus.
Silver-Inlaid Dagger - gets Shu Yun to six power. Casting a spell gets him to a 7/3 double strike.
Manriki-Gusari - not sure how relevant equipment destruction would be in this format, but getting Shu Yun to 5/4 is fine.
Swiftfoot Boots - probably less relevant here than in regular EDH
Grafted Wargear - free equip is a big deal since it makes it more likely you can cast the equipment, pay for double strike, and then equip
SoFF
Of those, I consider Bonesplitter and SoFF to be realistic options, which makes it tough to justify also including SFM.
Yeah, SoFI is not exactly good due to the pro:blue. I think that SoLS is an interesting option too. It gives protection from Terror and Swords and it also gives you back life lost, which can be important in a format without general's damage, where every life point is equally important.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Is True-Name Nemesis worth inclusion? It doesn't really fit the prowess theme I suppose, but it is a threat.
Are things like Mental Misstep, Gut Shot and Gitaxian Probe worth it as "free" prowess/pyromancer triggers? Probe in particular seems like it could be good since it gives you fairly decent information for your tempo plan.
Mmmmm, a 1v1-aimed EDH variant... nice. Dat banlist tho. Sword of Body and Mind?! Goblin Recruiter with no combo pieces (no Ringleader)? Efficient Black tutors are out but Top is in? Heh sure fine :P
I should like proxy up a list for this format or something, I wouldn't be opposed to a miniaturized version of EDH.
TNN could be fine, but without equipment to carry I suspect he'll just be fine. He could be better than Mantis Rider, though.
Git Probe is actually a good inclusion, I'm surprised I missed it. I have Spellstutter in there as a MM that can attack, but maybe actual MM is also worth including, at least in the side as an answer to the likes of StP, Thoughtseize, and Inquisition. I don't know how many x/1s I should expect to face, so I don't know how good Gut Shot would be. It does kill Bob for free, though, which is nice.
So far I've had second thoughts about 17 lands in this deck. 17 lands is roughly 20 lands in 60-card-land, and given that I want to cast spells and pay two mana to grant double strike I may need a higher proportion of lands to guarantee getting to at least five. I'll cut Cyclonic Rift and go up to 18 lands with an eye to potentially going to 19 lands (23 in 60 cards) if I feel too mana-light.
There would have to be commander damage. Otherwise lifegain.dec is too good.
I finally got down to the comments section where someone informs the SCG writer of his mistake.
So it seems like lifegain.dec is the way to go then?
The FAQ on the home site for Tiny Leaders says it ignores Commander damage. I'm not entirely sure about life gain, either, especially given that Ambassador Laquatus is legal and makes for a pretty saucy mill deck. I do kind of want to try Lin Sivvi with an infinite life combo thrown in, but I suspect it would be very Tier II.
Actually mill seems like a doable strategy in a 1v1 format where you start with a 42 card library.
Unfortunately's only legal Tiny Leader is Sygg, River Cutthroat. But if you jam every awful mill card into a deck, you could conceivably leave them unable to draw from their library by turn 8...
T1: Island > Hedron Crab
T2: Fetch for Swamp > Glimpse the Unthinkable. Opponent mills 16.
T3: Land > Mind Sculpt. Opponent mills 10.
T4: Mind Funeral. Let's say opponent mills 8.
T5: Land > Tome Scour
Not to mention any cards the opponent draws naturally for their turn.
Probably still awful.
Sorry, didn't intend to derail.
No worries, it's fine.
As I understand it, there's two approaches to mill in this format. The first is a High Tide deck involving Brain Freeze (required storm count often being only 12 or so, but your untap options aren't great) and the second is a Power Artifact / Basalt Monolith or Grim Monolith deck with Laquatus as the general. Neither deck runs tons of mill cards per se; they're mostly disruptive combo-control decks looking to blow you out in a big finish. I feel like the Laquatus deck is going to be better most of the time just because you're guaranteed access to a mill piece even if you can't resolve or don't find the mana combo, and of course the only ways to fight mill specifically in this format are either on-board Feldon's Cane-style things (that don't work versus Laquatus plus lots of mana) or Gaea's Blessing.
I mostly just plan to race a deck like that while using countermagic to keep the opponent off of the win. A Gilded Light in the sideboard might be worth it, though. Grapeshot is also legal in this format, but who knows how good a Grixis storm deck would be...
TNN vs. Mantis Rider is actually a somewhat interesting question. I suppose it depends on whether Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects are popular enough in the format to make 1 toughness a liability. TNN doesn't die to Bolt while Mantis does, and I suspect Bolt is pretty strong given the deck construction rules.
I agree that 17 lands seems a little light - maybe stick a Celestial Colonnade in as your 18th land that's also a mid to late game attacker? Coming into play tapped is a bummer, but I think the benefits outweigh the number of times it'll be an awkward draw.
Thinking about this format has actually gotten me interested, so thanks for that. Time to see if I can get my playgroup on board...
True-Name Nemesis doesn't care about Electrickery and/or Pyroclasm effects.
They deal damage even though they don't target. (TNN reads: This creature can't be... dealt damage... by anything controlled by that player.)
Reasons why posting shit to forums before 10am is a bad idea.
Well, one toughness versus three is relevant for the like of Toxic Deluge, Black Sun's Zenith, and other Infest variants.
Dunno how relevant those will be, though. BUG seems like the best control colors but they're also the colors without a general, meaning you have to play the Rules Committee-approved Grey Ogre (just a legendary BUG 2/2). Being the only remaining color combination that doesn't have a real general is shitty, but oh well.
Unfortunately there are some fairly large holes in terms of generals when you get into various color combinations. Grixis only has one, UB has one, UG has one since Edric is banned...the list goes on. The more I think about this format the more I like the idea of it, but at the same time the restriction on "commander" cost seems to keep things very samey. Hopefully WotC prints some more cheap legendary creatures in the near future.
Junk (abzan or whatever) is right up there in terms of power level too. You can essentially play Rock with Doran as your commander...almost all of that deck is legal in this format, and much of it is quite strong.
Back on topic, I think Toxic Deluge and BSZ get you no matter which creature you choose, so Infest is probably the card to beat in this scenario (assuming you even care about an Infest). There's Council's Judgement too I suppose, but again, that's getting you either way. Do people play Engineered Plague in their sideboards? I assume elf-ball is a thing in this format, so maybe that's something that gets TNN too (regardless of the value of siding in a card to beat one card in your deck)?
Crazy thought - have you considered Sulfuric Vortex at all? I know you're not really a burn deck per se, but it seems like a dedicated lifegain strategy might be tough for you to beat.
Have you had an opportunity to try out your list? I realize several cards are not available currently (including the most important one...), but proxies are a thing so I'm not considering that a true barrier to playing.
I am curious to hear how much/quickly your local group adopts this as a legitimate format.
Years ago peasant EDH caught on in my area because a local shop was holding tournaments with 1st place getting a foil version of their deck. That format died immediately after the shop stopped hosting tournaments. It just wasn't as much fun as EDH or Legacy...
I got the chance to test it tonight against two...not exactly real decks: Marath tribal Slivers and Animar Heartbeat combo. Marath is actually a huge beating just by itself (the Slivers were easily answerable by the board plan) since it kills most of this deck's creatures on the first cast and will kill all of them and survive on subsequent castings. I was able to roundly beat this deck mostly because the Slivers weren't all that great and they didn't have shroud to save them from my removal. I think I may want a Pithing Needle or Suppression Field in the side to answer commander abilities.
The Animar deck was interesting and contains the germ of an idea: Reiterate and Early Harvest net you infinite mana with a Heartbeat/Mana Flare, at which point any X spell will win. Accordingly, it included both Burning and Cunning Wishes (to find X spells) and a few in the main, like Comet Storm. The rest of the cards were ramp, dig, ways to prevent interaction (Defense Grid and the like), and sweepers. I think with a different draw suite and a more focused main, the deck could have been a competitive combo-control deck; as it was, I was able to easily dismantle it mostly because this deck can put out absurd amounts of damage in short order. I brought in Flusterstorm, Counterspell, and Wear / Tear, although Flusterstorm ended up not having much to do while a second Disenchant effect would have helped. I sided out white removal because it couldn't hit Animar and there didn't seem to be other creatures in the deck.
There's a few issues with the deck. Happily, I didn't feel a particular need for an equipment package with Stoneforge, so that's not something I want to add right now. The following cards didn't really pull their weight: Spellstutter (irrelevant body, paying two to counter one is not good), Spell Snare (narrow), Threads of Disloyalty (better in the board, maybe? Kinda pricey and low-impact in the main, but it may be an artifact of my testing), Geist of St. Traft (main body is so fragile). Think Twice seems like it would be excellent, perhaps in place of Spellstutter. Monastery Mentor is an absolutely absurd card, as is Jeskai Ascendancy (hooooly hell how did this card see print as-is?!). I'm wondering if Azorius Guildmage or perhaps New Prahv Guildmage would be worth it; the former has two useful abilities on an okay body while the latter grants evasion and has another ability that may be okay in a long game. Izzet Guildmage giving me double cantrips seems like gas but it may be too pricey.
What about Stifle if you're looking for an Azorius Guildmage effect? Is Isochron Scepter worth it instead of Izzet Guildmage? Maybe Fire | Ice too?
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