Stifle is a possibility, but I'm leery about it for two reasons: first, I don't want to cut too many bodies, and second, just having a random one-of Stifle doesn't seem all that good. That's actually sort of the logic why I'm not running Daze: since I can't run four copies of the card plus four copies of Brainstorm to make it likely I'll find one in the first few turns where it's most relevant, it seems a lot more loose. Azorius Guildmage at least beats for two and can tap a blocker on a critical turn, none of which is great but all of which is basically functional.
Scepter could be interesting. Scepter-Chant, anyone? Not sure how good it would be, though, since I'm not sure how much artifact hate to expect on average. Still, it's nice that activating Scepter will trigger prowess and Shu Yun's double strike ability.
Going back to bodies, I'm looking to replace Spellstutter and Geist. Geist can become TNN pretty safely, I think. Spellstutter can become one of the following: Serra Avenger, Azorius Guildmage, Izzet Guildmage. I don't think any of those guys are particularly good or anything, but they are warm bodies that are either reasonably sized or which have decent abilities. I can replace Threads in the main with Think Twice and replace Relic in the side with Threads or Needle. I don't think I'll have time to test the deck more until mid-next week, but that sounds like a good round of changes for now.
You make a good point here about random 1-of cards, but doesn't Guildmage also fit that description? Given Prowess, are you going to have 3 mana floating around for part of a Stifle and/or Benalish Trapper if/when you need it?
My thinking exactly. I'm sure there's some amount of dedicated artifact hate out there, but at the very least you should expect Abrupt Decay.
Is Jeskai Elder a consideration at all? It's objectively worse on its own, but given that you're fully on the prowess plan it might be able to equal or outclass the other options while either forcing a block or providing some card selection.
From good to bad:
Meddling Mage seems like a no-brainer in those colors somewhere in the deck or sideboard.
I was surprised that Fire/Ice and Chain Lightning weren't in your list.
Is Goblin Rabblemaster good enough to play?
I wish Goblin Legionnaire and Mogg Fanatic were good enough to play, but they're both a bit underpowered now that damage doesn't use the stack.
InfoNinjas
Well, my thinking was that Stifle and Daze specifically are Time Walk cards, and thus are at their best in the first three-ish turns when being forced to skip a turn is most punishing and most difficult to avoid. Their value drops off very quickly after that, though, so not being able to load up on enough of that effect to guarantee seeing it early makes me less likely to want to run any of it. Perhaps I am wrong and Stifle and/or Squelch are good here, but I also want to avoid running too many purely reactive cards.
Here's my current pros and cons on the various two-drop options:
Serra Avenger
Pros:Cons:
- Has better than Bear stats
- Vigilance and evasion mean it will have something to do on most board states
- Can't be cast until turn four and can't attack until turn five, making it slow
- 3/3 seems to be less durable than I thought initially
Meddling Mage
Pros:Cons:
- Keeps people off their generals
- Is good against specific 2+ card combos
- Is a 2/2 for two
- Not all that good versus decks with a lot of redundancy and which don't rely heavily on the general
Azorius Guildmage
Pros:Cons:
- Tapping a blocker in a key combat can potentially force through a lot of damage, forcing an opponent to hold back more
- Good at stonewalling specific big threats
- The Squelch ability can be randomly useful
- Is a 2/2 for two
- None of its abilities are particularly backbreaking
- Can be mana-intensive in the midgame
Izzet Guildmage
Pros:Cons:
- Double Bolts, Paths, Swords, and cantrips can be extremely powerful
- Powerful way to set up big turns by filling your hand with cards
- Is a 2/2 for two
- Potentially more cute than good - double Ponder would be 2UR, for example
- Competes with Shu Yun for mana on big turns
Jeskai Elder
Pros:Cons:
- Looter and prowess effect
- Probably one of the less threatening creatures that will be attacking, so more likely to get through
- Is not even a 2/2 for two
- No evasion means it virtually requires a spell to be cast in order to attack or block effectively
I could go more burn-heavy, to be honest. I want to prioritize cantrips first, but I could definitely see adding at least Chain Lightning.
...maybe? It does fit the general theme of creatures that are generally threatening on their own (through their ability to generate board presence), but I have the sneaking suspicion being a base 2/2 for three might sink it. 2/2s without evasion seem like they are very, very easy to outclass in this format, and Rabblemaster doesn't generate tokens at a huge rate or anything.
Okay, I think for my next playtesting session I'm going to try the following:
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Izzet Guildmage
Phantasmal Image
Seeker of the Way
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Mantis Rider
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique
Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Think Twice
Sphinx's Revelation
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Lightning Helix
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Counterspell
Remand
Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Wasteland
3 Island
Plains
Mountain
I want to try out Izzet Guildmage in the two-drop slot in part because I think it's the most fun of the options under consideration. If it doesn't work out (and I don't suspect it will), I'll swap it over to Chain Lightning.
I was thinking about playing this deck, but was thinking of also running Stoneforge mystic, and e-tutor, try to optimize the deck as much as I can to the legacy cards that I have I suppose...
Using Tapatalk
SFM is probably fine. I'd run Bonesplitter, Runechanter's Pike, and SoFF as your equipment options.
SoFI seems fairly good too given what I assume will be a whole ton of low toughness dudes running around. There's also Grafted Wargear - I don't think the "downside" is really all that bad since if you're trying to re-equip your guy probably ate a Doom Blade already anyway. That said, I think the options you listed are definitely where I would start.
I would want to run SoFI, but it gives the creature protection from my general at just the time I really want to grant that creature double strike. Spell, double strike, equip is usually going to be a five mana play, which is really, really mana-intensive in this deck.
I could see building a counter-control version of Shu Yun that's less explosive and more focused on playing the best cards in these colors, but I don't feel like Jeskai is the right color combination for that - at least, not with Shu Yun. I could see a Tetsuo Umezawa build like that, though. I think Shu Yun's strength is that he can produce a lot of damage very quickly so focusing on high-quality threats and stringing them together with cantrips and light disruption to maintain a lead is probably the best thing you can do with him.
That said, r/tinyleaders convinced me to shave out some of the middling dorks for more instants and sorceries, so I'm moving to this:
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Phantasmal Image
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique
Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Telling Time
Think Twice
Sphinx's Revelation
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Fire / Ice
Lightning Helix
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Remand
Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Mystic Monastery
Wasteland
2 Island
Plains
Mountain
Sideboard:
Tormod's Crypt
Suppression Field
Flusterstorm
Mental Misstep
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Timely Reinforcements
Bonfire of the Damned
Pyroclasm
To my unending embarrassment I seem to have lost my Chain Lightnings, so I'm going with Fire//Ice instead even though I think CL is the superior card here. I could also see myself shaving Desperate Ravings for another counterspell, possibly either Daze (ugh) or Miscalculation.
I like the list.
What about Impulse over Telling Time? They're more or less equivalent, but Impulse does get you one card deeper when you're really trying to dig into a counter or that game winning Bolt.
Not sure I agree about Chain Lightning over Fire / Ice because CL is a sorcery. My personal philosophy is to play cards that give me as many options as possible, so things like Izzet Charm, Fire / Ice and Turn / Burn generally get the nod over "better" spells.
I'd probably play Miscalculation over Daze. Worst case you cycle the Miscalculation away if it's really terrible.
I really like the look of the initial list. It seems like there is some real potential for this deck. One card that seems to have been overlooked Disrupting Shoal. In a format of CMCs 1-3, this seems very easy to hard cast not to mention the alternate casting cost.
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
The list in the OP is an acceptable starting point, but testing has brought me to this:
Delver of Secrets
Grim Lavamancer
Monastery Swiftspear
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Monastery Mentor
True-Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique
Distortion Strike
Jeskai Ascendancy
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Preordain
Desperate Ravings
Izzet Charm
Telling Time
Think Twice
Lightning Bolt
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Fire / Ice
Lightning Helix
Bonfire of the Damned
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Mental Misstep
Counterspell
Mana Leak
Remand
Volcanic Island
Tundra
Steam Vents
Hallowed Fountain
Plateau
Sacred Foundry
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Polluted Delta
Command Tower
Mystic Gate
Cascade Bluffs
Wasteland
Island
Plains
Mountain
Sideboard:
Suppression Field
Flusterstorm
Monastery Siege
Boros Charm
Disenchant
Wear / Tear
Timely Reinforcements
Pyroclasm
2 Flex Slots
There's a few things worth noting about this deck: first, you are slightly slower to kill than GoST in this build specifically (some builds run equipment to circumvent this). You make up for it by not being dependent on Geist, or in this case Shu Yun, to win because you have more creatures, token generation capability, and some burn. Second, you don't want to run more than six to seven maindeck counters. SY really wants you to cast spells at sorcery speed prior to combat, and running too many counters means there will be too many hands where you can't feed SY in your main and you have to move to attack with just a 3/2. I think if you want to run a bunch of counters you should probably be on GoST. As for Shoal specifically, the two-for-one nature is rough and the fact that it requires exactly the right cmc makes it worse, I think. I could see it in the sideboard if you wanted more permission but the counter suite in the main has been fine as-is. Third, I think the main can still use some tweaks. I'm souring on Ravings since you tend to pare your hand down to just business spells pretty quickly, and the +1 card advantage on the front end (and flashback on the back end) are just okay. I feel like I could do better in this slot, perhaps with bounce, perhaps with another burn spell. I really wish there were a competent GoST or Merieke Ri Berit player with an optimized list around here for testing purposes, but oh well. I suspect this deck has a hard time with Esper Control because GoST has a hard time with Esper Control and the decks are similar in terms of how to attack them.
Are Think Twice and Telling Time better than Serum Visions, Portent, and Magma Jet? Telling Time seems underwhelming, and although you can cast Think Twice, well, twice, it seems mediocre both times. The cards I suggested don't seem wildly better than Think Twice and Telling Time but seem to be at about the same power level.
I did just see your comment about Chain Lightning-would you replace Fire / Ice with it, or something else?
InfoNinjas
Sensei's Divining Top seems great too. It even triggers Prowess!
I feel like you want to use Ajani, Caller of the Pride as well. Planeswalkers are so few and rare in TL (only 7 legal ones) that any decent planeswalker is very powerful, imo.
Also, since you're in the colors... no Geist of St. Traft?
I feel like you can probably trim Desperate Ravings, Telling Time, and Think Twice for something better?
Flashback spells in general are very good with the prowess mechanic, since they give you prowess triggers on two separate turns (or twice in one turn if you're trying to win). I don't think Portent is a playable card just in general, and Serum Visions is thoroughly mediocre. Jet could be okay but I'd want to have more "three damage for one mana" spells before I started running "two for two" spells, so Chain Lightning would go in over it. I could see cutting Fire/Ice for Jet but F/I is just so versatile.
I only have five shuffle effects.
Ajani is maybe kind of mediocre, but I could see both Dack and Jace being good in this deck. Dack has the better plus mode, and stealing equipment is groovy, though Jace is a pretty consistent card advantage engine. Also, I have a Jace but not a Dack, and Dack is still $20ish, so...
This comes up quite often and I'm not sure why - is my experience with this card just different than every other person alive? Geist is three mana for a four damage burn spell with the additional text, "Your opponent must block with a 2/x or better." I started out with the guy in my list and that was literally all he ever was. Sometimes he wasn't even a burn spell because my opponent had cast Lingering Souls or had Thopter Foundry going and Geist was just a three mana do-nothing. Is the argument that I should run Geist because he's good in the abstract and that I should then run equipment and more removal to make Geist good in context? But I think if you're doing all this stuff to make Geist good you should just build Geist, The Deck, since loosing red is well worth having guaranteed access to your build-around.
Sorry if that came off a bit rant-y, I didn't intend it aggressively or anything. It's just that the first comment people have is literally always, "Where's Geist?" and then they're confused when I say he's not good.
So as is, what would you cut for Chain Lightning, Dack Fayden and maybe Jace Beleren?
Chain Lightning can go in over either Fire/Ice or Desperate Ravings. Ravings could also just become Impulse, in which case F/I would become CL.
Dack...is harder. I think he's better than Jace overall, but Jace may still be worth considering as an anti-control sideboard option since being able to outdraw the opponent seems pretty sweet and they're not usually in a great position to kill a planeswalker. Either way, they'd probably replace a draw spell, possibly Telling Time even though that card has been pretty solid in testing.
It's possible that Dack is just better in the board in one of the flex slots. I haven't particularly felt the need for continuous draw effects, and both planeswalkers cost three.
Yup, that sounds super reasonable. I don't think any of the things I suggested are actually better than what you had, but they all seemed to be at a reasonably similar power-level. That probably means they're the worst cards in the deck, which is already kind of obvious-Telling Time is no Ponder, Brainstorm, or Bolt.
InfoNinjas
6 with Ponder!
The experience that I've had with the format so far is that:
1) Barring combo decks, it's not super fast so you get a lot of time to take advantage of the constant card selection that Top gives you.
2) Because it's a format of 1-ofs, getting to control what you draw is even more important to gain as much consistency as possible.
I actually think Ajani is one of the stronger Planeswalkers available in the TL format (only 7 currently legal). I think since you're on the tempo plan, giving your guys evasion + double strike or boosting them might be good?
I like Dack more than Jace for you, especially if you're playing the flashback spells. Swords are a pretty popular part of this format as well so Dack's steal equipment ability is actually relevant. With little Jace, I'm just not a fan of giving my opponent cards.
Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was just curious about it is all. If your opponent has Lingering Souls / Thopter Foundry going, that negates most of your other guys anyways, right? It just feels to me that if you're in the colors to play Geist, one of the boogeymen of the format, you might as well play it?
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