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Thread: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

  1. #21

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Stifle is a possibility, but I'm leery about it for two reasons: first, I don't want to cut too many bodies, and second, just having a random one-of Stifle doesn't seem all that good. That's actually sort of the logic why I'm not running Daze: since I can't run four copies of the card plus four copies of Brainstorm to make it likely I'll find one in the first few turns where it's most relevant, it seems a lot more loose. Azorius Guildmage at least beats for two and can tap a blocker on a critical turn, none of which is great but all of which is basically functional.

    Scepter could be interesting. Scepter-Chant, anyone? Not sure how good it would be, though, since I'm not sure how much artifact hate to expect on average. Still, it's nice that activating Scepter will trigger prowess and Shu Yun's double strike ability.

    Going back to bodies, I'm looking to replace Spellstutter and Geist. Geist can become TNN pretty safely, I think. Spellstutter can become one of the following: Serra Avenger, Azorius Guildmage, Izzet Guildmage. I don't think any of those guys are particularly good or anything, but they are warm bodies that are either reasonably sized or which have decent abilities. I can replace Threads in the main with Think Twice and replace Relic in the side with Threads or Needle. I don't think I'll have time to test the deck more until mid-next week, but that sounds like a good round of changes for now.

  2. #22
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Stifle is a possibility, but I'm leery about it for two reasons: first, I don't want to cut too many bodies, and second, just having a random one-of Stifle doesn't seem all that good. That's actually sort of the logic why I'm not running Daze: since I can't run four copies of the card plus four copies of Brainstorm to make it likely I'll find one in the first few turns where it's most relevant, it seems a lot more loose. Azorius Guildmage at least beats for two and can tap a blocker on a critical turn, none of which is great but all of which is basically functional.
    You make a good point here about random 1-of cards, but doesn't Guildmage also fit that description? Given Prowess, are you going to have 3 mana floating around for part of a Stifle and/or Benalish Trapper if/when you need it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Scepter could be interesting. Scepter-Chant, anyone? Not sure how good it would be, though, since I'm not sure how much artifact hate to expect on average. Still, it's nice that activating Scepter will trigger prowess and Shu Yun's double strike ability.
    My thinking exactly. I'm sure there's some amount of dedicated artifact hate out there, but at the very least you should expect Abrupt Decay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Going back to bodies, I'm looking to replace Spellstutter and Geist. Geist can become TNN pretty safely, I think. Spellstutter can become one of the following: Serra Avenger, Azorius Guildmage, Izzet Guildmage. I don't think any of those guys are particularly good or anything, but they are warm bodies that are either reasonably sized or which have decent abilities. I can replace Threads in the main with Think Twice and replace Relic in the side with Threads or Needle. I don't think I'll have time to test the deck more until mid-next week, but that sounds like a good round of changes for now.
    Is Jeskai Elder a consideration at all? It's objectively worse on its own, but given that you're fully on the prowess plan it might be able to equal or outclass the other options while either forcing a block or providing some card selection.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    From good to bad:
    Meddling Mage seems like a no-brainer in those colors somewhere in the deck or sideboard.

    I was surprised that Fire/Ice and Chain Lightning weren't in your list.

    Is Goblin Rabblemaster good enough to play?

    I wish Goblin Legionnaire and Mogg Fanatic were good enough to play, but they're both a bit underpowered now that damage doesn't use the stack.
    InfoNinjas

  4. #24

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Davran View Post
    You make a good point here about random 1-of cards, but doesn't Guildmage also fit that description? Given Prowess, are you going to have 3 mana floating around for part of a Stifle and/or Benalish Trapper if/when you need it?
    Well, my thinking was that Stifle and Daze specifically are Time Walk cards, and thus are at their best in the first three-ish turns when being forced to skip a turn is most punishing and most difficult to avoid. Their value drops off very quickly after that, though, so not being able to load up on enough of that effect to guarantee seeing it early makes me less likely to want to run any of it. Perhaps I am wrong and Stifle and/or Squelch are good here, but I also want to avoid running too many purely reactive cards.

    Here's my current pros and cons on the various two-drop options:

    Serra Avenger
    Pros:
    • Has better than Bear stats
    • Vigilance and evasion mean it will have something to do on most board states
    Cons:
    • Can't be cast until turn four and can't attack until turn five, making it slow
    • 3/3 seems to be less durable than I thought initially


    Meddling Mage
    Pros:
    • Keeps people off their generals
    • Is good against specific 2+ card combos
    Cons:
    • Is a 2/2 for two
    • Not all that good versus decks with a lot of redundancy and which don't rely heavily on the general

    Azorius Guildmage
    Pros:
    • Tapping a blocker in a key combat can potentially force through a lot of damage, forcing an opponent to hold back more
    • Good at stonewalling specific big threats
    • The Squelch ability can be randomly useful
    Cons:
    • Is a 2/2 for two
    • None of its abilities are particularly backbreaking
    • Can be mana-intensive in the midgame

    Izzet Guildmage
    Pros:
    • Double Bolts, Paths, Swords, and cantrips can be extremely powerful
    • Powerful way to set up big turns by filling your hand with cards
    Cons:
    • Is a 2/2 for two
    • Potentially more cute than good - double Ponder would be 2UR, for example
    • Competes with Shu Yun for mana on big turns

    Jeskai Elder
    Pros:
    • Looter and prowess effect
    • Probably one of the less threatening creatures that will be attacking, so more likely to get through
    Cons:
    • Is not even a 2/2 for two
    • No evasion means it virtually requires a spell to be cast in order to attack or block effectively

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTroll View Post
    I was surprised that Fire/Ice and Chain Lightning weren't in your list.
    I could go more burn-heavy, to be honest. I want to prioritize cantrips first, but I could definitely see adding at least Chain Lightning.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTroll View Post
    Is Goblin Rabblemaster good enough to play?
    ...maybe? It does fit the general theme of creatures that are generally threatening on their own (through their ability to generate board presence), but I have the sneaking suspicion being a base 2/2 for three might sink it. 2/2s without evasion seem like they are very, very easy to outclass in this format, and Rabblemaster doesn't generate tokens at a huge rate or anything.

  5. #25

  6. #26

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    I was thinking about playing this deck, but was thinking of also running Stoneforge mystic, and e-tutor, try to optimize the deck as much as I can to the legacy cards that I have I suppose...
    Using Tapatalk

  7. #27

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    SFM is probably fine. I'd run Bonesplitter, Runechanter's Pike, and SoFF as your equipment options.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    SFM is probably fine. I'd run Bonesplitter, Runechanter's Pike, and SoFF as your equipment options.
    SoFI seems fairly good too given what I assume will be a whole ton of low toughness dudes running around. There's also Grafted Wargear - I don't think the "downside" is really all that bad since if you're trying to re-equip your guy probably ate a Doom Blade already anyway. That said, I think the options you listed are definitely where I would start.

  9. #29

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    I would want to run SoFI, but it gives the creature protection from my general at just the time I really want to grant that creature double strike. Spell, double strike, equip is usually going to be a five mana play, which is really, really mana-intensive in this deck.

    I could see building a counter-control version of Shu Yun that's less explosive and more focused on playing the best cards in these colors, but I don't feel like Jeskai is the right color combination for that - at least, not with Shu Yun. I could see a Tetsuo Umezawa build like that, though. I think Shu Yun's strength is that he can produce a lot of damage very quickly so focusing on high-quality threats and stringing them together with cantrips and light disruption to maintain a lead is probably the best thing you can do with him.

    That said, r/tinyleaders convinced me to shave out some of the middling dorks for more instants and sorceries, so I'm moving to this:

    Delver of Secrets
    Grim Lavamancer
    Monastery Swiftspear
    Phantasmal Image
    Snapcaster Mage
    Young Pyromancer
    Brimaz, King of Oreskos
    Monastery Mentor
    True-Name Nemesis
    Vendilion Clique

    Distortion Strike
    Jeskai Ascendancy

    Brainstorm
    Gitaxian Probe
    Ponder
    Preordain
    Desperate Ravings
    Izzet Charm
    Telling Time
    Think Twice
    Sphinx's Revelation

    Lightning Bolt
    Path to Exile
    Swords to Plowshares
    Fire / Ice
    Lightning Helix

    Spell Pierce
    Spell Snare
    Counterspell
    Mana Leak
    Remand

    Volcanic Island
    Tundra
    Steam Vents
    Hallowed Fountain
    Plateau
    Sacred Foundry
    Arid Mesa
    Flooded Strand
    Scalding Tarn
    Misty Rainforest
    Polluted Delta
    Command Tower
    Mystic Monastery
    Wasteland
    2 Island
    Plains
    Mountain

    Sideboard:
    Tormod's Crypt
    Suppression Field
    Flusterstorm
    Mental Misstep
    Boros Charm
    Disenchant
    Wear / Tear
    Timely Reinforcements
    Bonfire of the Damned
    Pyroclasm

    To my unending embarrassment I seem to have lost my Chain Lightnings, so I'm going with Fire//Ice instead even though I think CL is the superior card here. I could also see myself shaving Desperate Ravings for another counterspell, possibly either Daze (ugh) or Miscalculation.

  10. #30
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Sorry to comment on something completely unrelated, but you have no idea how much time I've wasted failing at linking split cards. Really happy to figure this out, even if I rarely post magic stuff!

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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    To my unending embarrassment I seem to have lost my Chain Lightnings, so I'm going with Fire//Ice instead even though I think CL is the superior card here. I could also see myself shaving Desperate Ravings for another counterspell, possibly either Daze (ugh) or Miscalculation.
    I like the list.

    What about Impulse over Telling Time? They're more or less equivalent, but Impulse does get you one card deeper when you're really trying to dig into a counter or that game winning Bolt.

    Not sure I agree about Chain Lightning over Fire / Ice because CL is a sorcery. My personal philosophy is to play cards that give me as many options as possible, so things like Izzet Charm, Fire / Ice and Turn / Burn generally get the nod over "better" spells.

    I'd probably play Miscalculation over Daze. Worst case you cycle the Miscalculation away if it's really terrible.

  12. #32
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    I really like the look of the initial list. It seems like there is some real potential for this deck. One card that seems to have been overlooked Disrupting Shoal. In a format of CMCs 1-3, this seems very easy to hard cast not to mention the alternate casting cost.

  13. #33

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    The list in the OP is an acceptable starting point, but testing has brought me to this:

    Delver of Secrets
    Grim Lavamancer
    Monastery Swiftspear
    Snapcaster Mage
    Young Pyromancer
    Brimaz, King of Oreskos
    Monastery Mentor
    True-Name Nemesis
    Vendilion Clique

    Distortion Strike
    Jeskai Ascendancy

    Brainstorm
    Gitaxian Probe
    Ponder
    Preordain
    Desperate Ravings
    Izzet Charm
    Telling Time
    Think Twice

    Lightning Bolt
    Path to Exile
    Swords to Plowshares
    Fire / Ice
    Lightning Helix
    Bonfire of the Damned

    Spell Pierce
    Spell Snare
    Mental Misstep
    Counterspell
    Mana Leak
    Remand

    Volcanic Island
    Tundra
    Steam Vents
    Hallowed Fountain
    Plateau
    Sacred Foundry
    Arid Mesa
    Flooded Strand
    Scalding Tarn
    Misty Rainforest
    Polluted Delta
    Command Tower
    Mystic Gate
    Cascade Bluffs
    Wasteland
    Island
    Plains
    Mountain

    Sideboard:
    Suppression Field
    Flusterstorm
    Monastery Siege
    Boros Charm
    Disenchant
    Wear / Tear
    Timely Reinforcements
    Pyroclasm
    2 Flex Slots

    There's a few things worth noting about this deck: first, you are slightly slower to kill than GoST in this build specifically (some builds run equipment to circumvent this). You make up for it by not being dependent on Geist, or in this case Shu Yun, to win because you have more creatures, token generation capability, and some burn. Second, you don't want to run more than six to seven maindeck counters. SY really wants you to cast spells at sorcery speed prior to combat, and running too many counters means there will be too many hands where you can't feed SY in your main and you have to move to attack with just a 3/2. I think if you want to run a bunch of counters you should probably be on GoST. As for Shoal specifically, the two-for-one nature is rough and the fact that it requires exactly the right cmc makes it worse, I think. I could see it in the sideboard if you wanted more permission but the counter suite in the main has been fine as-is. Third, I think the main can still use some tweaks. I'm souring on Ravings since you tend to pare your hand down to just business spells pretty quickly, and the +1 card advantage on the front end (and flashback on the back end) are just okay. I feel like I could do better in this slot, perhaps with bounce, perhaps with another burn spell. I really wish there were a competent GoST or Merieke Ri Berit player with an optimized list around here for testing purposes, but oh well. I suspect this deck has a hard time with Esper Control because GoST has a hard time with Esper Control and the decks are similar in terms of how to attack them.

  14. #34
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Are Think Twice and Telling Time better than Serum Visions, Portent, and Magma Jet? Telling Time seems underwhelming, and although you can cast Think Twice, well, twice, it seems mediocre both times. The cards I suggested don't seem wildly better than Think Twice and Telling Time but seem to be at about the same power level.

    I did just see your comment about Chain Lightning-would you replace Fire / Ice with it, or something else?
    InfoNinjas

  15. #35
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Sensei's Divining Top seems great too. It even triggers Prowess!

    I feel like you want to use Ajani, Caller of the Pride as well. Planeswalkers are so few and rare in TL (only 7 legal ones) that any decent planeswalker is very powerful, imo.

    Also, since you're in the colors... no Geist of St. Traft?

    I feel like you can probably trim Desperate Ravings, Telling Time, and Think Twice for something better?

  16. #36

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryTroll View Post
    Are Think Twice and Telling Time better than Serum Visions, Portent, and Magma Jet? Telling Time seems underwhelming, and although you can cast Think Twice, well, twice, it seems mediocre both times. The cards I suggested don't seem wildly better than Think Twice and Telling Time but seem to be at about the same power level.
    Flashback spells in general are very good with the prowess mechanic, since they give you prowess triggers on two separate turns (or twice in one turn if you're trying to win). I don't think Portent is a playable card just in general, and Serum Visions is thoroughly mediocre. Jet could be okay but I'd want to have more "three damage for one mana" spells before I started running "two for two" spells, so Chain Lightning would go in over it. I could see cutting Fire/Ice for Jet but F/I is just so versatile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Sensei's Divining Top seems great too. It even triggers Prowess!
    I only have five shuffle effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    I feel like you want to use Ajani, Caller of the Pride as well. Planeswalkers are so few and rare in TL (only 7 legal ones) that any decent planeswalker is very powerful, imo.
    Ajani is maybe kind of mediocre, but I could see both Dack and Jace being good in this deck. Dack has the better plus mode, and stealing equipment is groovy, though Jace is a pretty consistent card advantage engine. Also, I have a Jace but not a Dack, and Dack is still $20ish, so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Also, since you're in the colors... no Geist of St. Traft?
    This comes up quite often and I'm not sure why - is my experience with this card just different than every other person alive? Geist is three mana for a four damage burn spell with the additional text, "Your opponent must block with a 2/x or better." I started out with the guy in my list and that was literally all he ever was. Sometimes he wasn't even a burn spell because my opponent had cast Lingering Souls or had Thopter Foundry going and Geist was just a three mana do-nothing. Is the argument that I should run Geist because he's good in the abstract and that I should then run equipment and more removal to make Geist good in context? But I think if you're doing all this stuff to make Geist good you should just build Geist, The Deck, since loosing red is well worth having guaranteed access to your build-around.

    Sorry if that came off a bit rant-y, I didn't intend it aggressively or anything. It's just that the first comment people have is literally always, "Where's Geist?" and then they're confused when I say he's not good.

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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    So as is, what would you cut for Chain Lightning, Dack Fayden and maybe Jace Beleren?

  18. #38

    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Chain Lightning can go in over either Fire/Ice or Desperate Ravings. Ravings could also just become Impulse, in which case F/I would become CL.

    Dack...is harder. I think he's better than Jace overall, but Jace may still be worth considering as an anti-control sideboard option since being able to outdraw the opponent seems pretty sweet and they're not usually in a great position to kill a planeswalker. Either way, they'd probably replace a draw spell, possibly Telling Time even though that card has been pretty solid in testing.

    It's possible that Dack is just better in the board in one of the flex slots. I haven't particularly felt the need for continuous draw effects, and both planeswalkers cost three.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Flashback spells in general are very good with the prowess mechanic, since they give you prowess triggers on two separate turns (or twice in one turn if you're trying to win). I don't think Portent is a playable card just in general, and Serum Visions is thoroughly mediocre. Jet could be okay but I'd want to have more "three damage for one mana" spells before I started running "two for two" spells, so Chain Lightning would go in over it. I could see cutting Fire/Ice for Jet but F/I is just so versatile.
    Yup, that sounds super reasonable. I don't think any of the things I suggested are actually better than what you had, but they all seemed to be at a reasonably similar power-level. That probably means they're the worst cards in the deck, which is already kind of obvious-Telling Time is no Ponder, Brainstorm, or Bolt.
    InfoNinjas

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    Re: [Tiny Leaders] Shu Yun, the Silent Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    I only have five shuffle effects.
    6 with Ponder!

    The experience that I've had with the format so far is that:

    1) Barring combo decks, it's not super fast so you get a lot of time to take advantage of the constant card selection that Top gives you.
    2) Because it's a format of 1-ofs, getting to control what you draw is even more important to gain as much consistency as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    Ajani is maybe kind of mediocre, but I could see both Dack and Jace being good in this deck. Dack has the better plus mode, and stealing equipment is groovy, though Jace is a pretty consistent card advantage engine. Also, I have a Jace but not a Dack, and Dack is still $20ish, so...
    I actually think Ajani is one of the stronger Planeswalkers available in the TL format (only 7 currently legal). I think since you're on the tempo plan, giving your guys evasion + double strike or boosting them might be good?

    I like Dack more than Jace for you, especially if you're playing the flashback spells. Swords are a pretty popular part of this format as well so Dack's steal equipment ability is actually relevant. With little Jace, I'm just not a fan of giving my opponent cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies View Post
    This comes up quite often and I'm not sure why - is my experience with this card just different than every other person alive? Geist is three mana for a four damage burn spell with the additional text, "Your opponent must block with a 2/x or better." I started out with the guy in my list and that was literally all he ever was. Sometimes he wasn't even a burn spell because my opponent had cast Lingering Souls or had Thopter Foundry going and Geist was just a three mana do-nothing. Is the argument that I should run Geist because he's good in the abstract and that I should then run equipment and more removal to make Geist good in context? But I think if you're doing all this stuff to make Geist good you should just build Geist, The Deck, since loosing red is well worth having guaranteed access to your build-around.

    Sorry if that came off a bit rant-y, I didn't intend it aggressively or anything. It's just that the first comment people have is literally always, "Where's Geist?" and then they're confused when I say he's not good.
    Don't worry, I didn't take it that way. I was just curious about it is all. If your opponent has Lingering Souls / Thopter Foundry going, that negates most of your other guys anyways, right? It just feels to me that if you're in the colors to play Geist, one of the boogeymen of the format, you might as well play it?

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