[Primer] R/G Lands

[Chatto]

Yea, not sure why my my idea was met with so much vitriol. I agree that it is no ideal to board nodes in against a deck that may wasteland you- but you only need to tap it for white one time (if it resolves and you get wastelanded afterwards, you probably don't care. If it gets countered and you get wastelanded afterwards, you still probably don't care). This could create some awkward situations (hence nodes being the "budget" solution to Drop), but thats why I wouldn't splash white just for porphyry nodes. The % points you lose by having node be tougher to cast could be outweighed by the % points you get against reanimator / sneak etc. Just throwing it out there.

Just to be clear: I'm not attacking you. I only stated that IMHO you have to rework the manabase quiet a bit. I get that you don't want to splash W only for Nodes, and obviously white harebears are the first that come to mind. Personally, I'm more of a pure RG-player. I never liked the black splash, or any other splash fwiw. I would say bite the bullit, don't go budget.

[rlesko]

Just to be clear: I'm not attacking you. I only stated that IMHO you have to rework the manabase quiet a bit. I get that you don't want to splash W only for Nodes, and obviously white harebears are the first that come to mind. Personally, I'm more of a pure RG-player. I never liked the black splash, or any other splash fwiw. I would say bite the bullit, don't go budget.

Oh, I know you weren't. Your post was constructive - not just a 1 word insult.

I have Drops :) I just get bored of playing the same flavor of Lands all the time. Right now I'm playing the blue splash mostly but both black and white splashes are of interest to me.

[Airex]

I damn myself to not buy drop before the last GP when it was 90 €. Now i dont know if its rly worth buy 1-2 of them. I played a lot in this period and i can handle TMM/Leo without(ofc is more tricky)

[Chatto]

Oh, I know you weren't. Your post was constructive - not just a 1 word insult.

I have Drops :) I just get bored of playing the same flavor of Lands all the time. Right now I'm playing the blue splash mostly but both black and white splashes are of interest to me.

Aah ok :-) I read somewhere about Lingering Souls as well, any thoughts about that?

[rlesko]

Aah ok :-) I read somewhere about Lingering Souls as well, any thoughts about that?

I mean, I'm not a Lands expert by any stretch of the imagination but I think the deck can only support a tertiary color.

If you want edict protection play Dryad arbor / warping wail / mishra's factory.

If you want to apply pressure outside of making a 20/20 then I would play four trackers first.

If I was in white I would play cards like Nodes / hatebears / solemnity etc. If I was in black I would play hand disruption / sweepers. It is my opinion that the lingering souls version is adding two colors to the deck but not the best cards in either color. Oh, and huge nonbo with Thorn of Amethyst too.

[Chatto]

The Japanese seem to think otherwise

[rlesko]

Oh I know, and I actually personally know the guy in Japan whose been pioneering that. But there is always the question is he winning because of that, or in spite of that?

[Crimhead]

The Japanese seem to think otherwise

That's a spicy SB with Murmuring Bosk!

I don’t like it myself. For pressure I vastly prefer Tracker, and if I'm worried about Edict I like Warping Wail.

I get LS is both pressure and Edict protection, and that it plays from the yard. And card advantage. But Tracker is better card advantage, Wail is good against combo, and neither require off-colour mana.

I think Lingering Souls is fine, but I prefer other options myself.

[Ingo]

The mana can be made to work for a white splash. Seeing as though I didn't even propose a manabase for the deck it would be hard for that to have been his message. What is the minimum number of white sources needed to reliably have it by turn 2 (earliest)? This isn't like the black splash where the deck is trying to lead on thoughtseize vs combo, etc.

The consensus of a minimum of sources required to reliably play a T1 spell is 13/14 (there's an old article from Karsten Cotter on this). I don't think there's much difference between thoughtseize and CPriest, it's a T1 play versus a T2 play as you wanna be able to play both asap. David Long had 12 black sources in his blacksplash (8 lands, 4 mox), so similarly I wouldn't go below 12 white sources for a whitesplash. He did drop the Groves to enable such a manabase, so maybe you have to swap the Pfires for Vortexes too.

But personally I feel like a blacksplash is better than white. Thoughtseize hits anything, where CPriest is quite narrow. And Toxic Deluge is amazing in dealing with the same creatures (like TNN or Leovold) you'd play nodes for.

[rlesko]

The consensus of a minimum of sources required to reliably play a T1 spell is 13/14 (there's an old article from Karsten Cotter on this). I don't think there's much difference between thoughtseize and CPriest, it's a T1 play versus a T2 play as you wanna be able to play both asap. David Long had 12 black sources in his blacksplash (8 lands, 4 mox), so similarly I wouldn't go below 12 white sources for a whitesplash. He did drop the Groves to enable such a manabase, so maybe you have to swap the Pfires for Vortexes too.

But personally I feel like a blacksplash is better than white. Thoughtseize hits anything, where CPriest is quite narrow. And Toxic Deluge is amazing in dealing with the same creatures (like TNN or Leovold) you'd play nodes for.

White = 1 savannah, 1 GW fetch cycler, 4 fetch, 4 mox, canopy, karakas is 12 right there (only 1 CITP), without really messing with the mana at all.

Just to note- I always viewed that black splash list to be swapping p fires for decays, not vortexes, since even straight RG lands play 1+ vortex commonly. P fire does seem to be in a good place right now though so maybe a black splash list exists with the nice SB cards only (no decays main)

[Ciubulu]

I like my rg build and I won't change it but if I have to splash I will probably go white (even above blue and black) because you'll gain powerful cards vs our worst mu's like canonist and priest. I won't play nodes anyway but with the white splash lingering souls are a solid option

[Ingo]

P fire does seem to be in a good place right now though so maybe a black splash list exists with the nice SB cards only (no decays main)

A BG fetch cycler would be a nice thing... lets hope it gets printed.

I like my rg build and I won't change it but if I have to splash I will probably go white (even above blue and black) because you'll gain powerful cards vs our worst mu's like canonist and priest.

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

[Ciubulu]

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

Containment is great vs show and tell and sneak attack decks, it's also good vs aether vial and vs slower reanimator decks. Against br reanimator is not great as it is vs the ub version but can keep them under control in combination with a maze of ith, obviously if your best out is cropping for bog and then recurring it until they scoop or die to marit ;-)

[rlesko]

Containment Priest is good, but for example against BR Reanimator, it's a T2 play against T1 discard and Collective Brutality and/or Decay, so I don't know.

This is no different from RG lands with crop rotation and spheres. A white splash has the regular crop rotation or lock piece turn 1 plays, plus potential hatebears if mox diamonds are involved on turn 1 or turn 2.

Containment is great vs show and tell and sneak attack decks, it's also good vs aether vial and vs slower reanimator decks. Against br reanimator is not great as it is vs the ub version but can keep them under control in combination with a maze of ith, obviously if your best out is cropping for bog and then recurring it until they scoop or die to marit ;-)

I actually think its better against BR because you dont have to worry about running it into force of will / daze. And maybe they boarded out their CBs... either way, as you pointed out its great vs all our bad matchups (Sneak + reanimator)

[Ingo]

This is no different from RG lands with crop rotation and spheres. A white splash has the regular crop rotation or lock piece turn 1 plays, plus potential hatebears if mox diamonds are involved on turn 1 or turn 2.

Except that spheres/thorns fit the larger theme of manadenial along with wasteland and Port/Quarter, being part of a larger plan makes them much stronger than individual cards. Chances are that cutting cards for Priest, will in turn make the Storm matchup and any other non-fattie-combomatchup considerably worse.
I also had a comparison with Thoughtseize in mind, not Spheres. Thoughtseize is a T1 card, and it diversifies hate between permanents (spheres) and sorceries, making it harder to board against. And its useful against any problematic strategy.
Ofcourse Im biased as I like discard, but I make the comparison because both the W-splash and B-splash (instead of plain RG) require similar tweaked manabases, and discard feels like it gives you more for your sacrifices.

[Alexeezay]

^ what Ingo said. Also, I don't know why you think that Reanimator is a bad MU. I have had pretty good tournament results against it so far. Sneak Show is rough, I agree. But it's not like it's unwinnable. And OmniShow is easier because our sideboard cards are more effective there.

[OldSpellMaster]

After the top-ban, when intuition was cut and more combodecks came up, I was thinking about a white splash (either with or without my blue splash). I cut the idea. It felt more like Lands-and-Taxes instead of Lands.
Now, I must have a very good reason splashing white or black and a SB card is NOT a reason splashing both (for me).
But I'd like to find such a very good reason. I would even include Volrath's Stronghold for the perfect creature...

[rlesko]

Except that spheres/thorns fit the larger theme of manadenial along with wasteland and Port/Quarter, being part of a larger plan makes them much stronger than individual cards. Chances are that cutting cards for Priest, will in turn make the Storm matchup and any other non-fattie-combomatchup considerably worse.
I also had a comparison with Thoughtseize in mind, not Spheres. Thoughtseize is a T1 card, and it diversifies hate between permanents (spheres) and sorceries, making it harder to board against. And its useful against any problematic strategy.
Ofcourse Im biased as I like discard, but I make the comparison because both the W-splash and B-splash (instead of plain RG) require similar tweaked manabases, and discard feels like it gives you more for your sacrifices.

You know whats better than wastelands / ports + thorns / spheres? All those cards PLUS hatebears. But the point is white doesn't require an entire overhaul of the manabase like the black splash does. You only need to change 2-3 cards whereas black has to drop punishing fire entirely.

^ what Ingo said. Also, I don't know why you think that Reanimator is a bad MU. I have had pretty good tournament results against it so far. Sneak Show is rough, I agree. But it's not like it's unwinnable. And OmniShow is easier because our sideboard cards are more effective there.

Depends on the reanimator variant. Against a smart UB reanimator player I think we are heavy underdogs. I have won more than I've lost versus the BR variant. And the primary motivation IS sneak & show, but able to be boarded in against reanimator feels good too.

[Ingo]

You know whats better than wastelands / ports + thorns / spheres? All those cards PLUS hatebears.

I assumed you replaced spheres by hatebears. So if you play the hatebears along the spheres/thorns, how many combohate do you play in the side? And what cards did you cut?

But the point is white doesn't require an entire overhaul of the manabase like the black splash does. You only need to change 2-3 cards whereas black has to drop punishing fire entirely.

Black has Bog, Cabal Pit (instead of Bring) and Urborg (instead of Tomb) as it's incidental oncolor sources (along with dual/4fetch/4mox), so you can play blacksplash Pfires just as easy. Im just not sure 12 sources is enough. But now that top's gone, there's no need for maindeck decay's either, Im gonna try such a configuration next time I play.

[rlesko]

1 Ancient Tomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Krosan Grip
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Containment Priest
2 Porphyry Nodes

Was a quick & dirty thing I came up with. Could squeeze 2 more hatebears in place of the Crucible and Nodes, etc. Or maybe the two hatebears of choice would be Thalia + Revoker because all 4 can be brought in vs all combo, etc.