http://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliot...s-for-players/
Basically, for triggers that affect the visible game state (physically moving objects, adding counters, changing life totals, etc) you previously only had to remember to acknowledge the trigger in some way (like verbally), and then hopefully continue on to actually carry out the physical action. Now you actually have to carry out the physical action at the appropriate time, or the trigger is considered missed. Makes a lot of sense.
Put your Empty the Warrens tokens on the battlefield before you do anything else.
Last edited by cdr; 03-24-2015 at 01:44 PM.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
Anything else being what, specifically?
Could putting the sorcery into my graveyard be enough to cause a "misunderstanding" with my opponent?
Originally Posted by GreatWhale
Maybe I shouldn't have used storm for an example since it's a bit more complicated (you have to get the effect of the spell even if you miss the trigger).
Putting the card in the graveyard and then putting the tokens in would be OK under Out-of-Order sequencing so long as you didn't pause between the actions.
Something like playing another spell after Empty without putting the tokens in would move things to Missed Trigger though (plus possibly GPE for not putting the two in for the original).
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So, when Batterskull enters the battlefield and I say "create a token, go ahead" instead of making them wait for me to physically create the token before passing the turn, I have missed my trigger?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Yep, definitely in that case. Completing the physical action is now required.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
That's pretty shitty.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Well, saying "create a token, go ahead" and then forgetting to actually do it because your opponent proceeded to do something during upkeep is a shitty situation to clean up when it's discovered later. Allowing the physical state of the game to be inaccurate is pretty bad.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
This is going to be huge fun during SCG Coverage matches.
Cast Empty the Warrens. Storm trigger? OK. Place ten token OTB. Wait, what? You need to dig them out? Ok, I guess we'll wait. Oh, you don't have enough SCG brand tokens? Ok. we'll wait while you get them since the game can't progress. You found ten? Sweet. Resolve EtW. Place two more tokens OTB. You only found ten? ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............
Empty the Warrens with storm count at four.
"Ten tokens."
Sift through graveyard for Dread Return.
"Sac three. Target Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite."
Dread Return resolves.
While certainly an uncommon combination of cards, such a course of action is not entirely uncommon by today's standards. However, assuming the opponent lets all that happen, what is to be said of the, so far, non-existent tokens under the new rules? You needed to sacrifice three, which means that at least one of the triggers must have resolved. Does that mean your opponent has de facto chosen to put the trigger(s) on the stack as though it were a missed Dark Confidant trigger? If so, how is this so different from gaining your opponent's consent (which I understand my previous post did not do) regarding a Batterskull token and passing the turn before physically creating a token?
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
If your opponent lets you put a germ token in after passing the turn, they're basically letting you get away with rule-breaking play, which happens.
Your ETW scenario could maybe be covered under Out-of-Order Sequencing, in which case putting seven tokens when you pay for Dread Return in would be legal and not a missed trigger. If there's any breaks in there though, rather than everything being done basically at once (because you expect your opponent not to respond to anything), it isn't out-of-order sequencing and you need to put the tokens into play at the proper time.
Last edited by cdr; 03-24-2015 at 10:24 PM. Reason: out of order sequencing
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I can see that the alternative scenario described by cdr that involves announcing but then forgetting the Germ token also sucks.
For me as a competitive player I still feel bad about that. That means that if I want to play to the best of my ability I would hold an opponent accountable for not putting in the Germ token even though he clearly communicated to me that he was about to get one.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Yeah I wonder what precipitated this change. It seems awful. People are going to pause to scratch their beard before grabbing their tokens and their opponent is going to call a judge. Meanwhile you still don't have to announce Exalted/prowess until it matters? Makes no sense.
Policy changes to enforcement - and especially tricky things like triggers - are almost always driven by event experience. When something's causing issues, judges at GPs, PTs, etc notice it.
You can read the 'for judges' version of the above blog post for more background on this particular change.
There's always a balance between flow of play and the friction of getting players to strictly follow the rules to avoid broken gamestates. The policy makers decided that a little extra friction was worth it in this case.
I personally think players will adapt, but like Toby says in his post all changes are monitored and modified as necessary.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
So if I'm going to fetch for a green source then GSZ, can I still show my opponent the GSZ and ask if I can shortcut and get everything/shuffle in GSZ all at once?
Also this does not seem like that big of a pain in the ass. If you know you're going to generate a bunch of tokens or flipping into foil Delvers, just keep them close at hand.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
There's not even a trigger there. That's covered by Out of Order Sequencing.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
I expect it was precipitated by the awful propensity of Magic players to shortcut too many things. IMHO there's too many critical game actions that are taken with too much glossing over. Especially when card drawing - show me three separate draws off that bloody Brainstorm, don't just rip three off the top and expect me to just believe it's three cards. Watch any given SCG event and watch people just yank a stack off the top. That's fishy as hell.
I don't expect every little passing of priority to be announced or verbal acknowledgement of every SBE, that's pedantic. But like, doing a thing right when your card says to do a thing, that should just be understood.
Also I agree with people that dislike the fact that Exalted/Prowess/etc triggers etc don't need to be announced 'until they matter'. Especially with so much more emphasis being placed on the battlefield over the last like decade - why overcomplicate matters by allowing people to stay hushed on the p/t of a creature?
I like this rule change. It's really helpful when you pregame before a tournament
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Ok let's say it's a Veteran Explorer trigger then instead of a fetch. Not that it's a big deal to just grab the lands then show the GSZ before shuffling, just curious if it now has to be done that way.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Thank you for that link.
IANAJ but I really think it's better to cover this under GRV or Failure to maintain game state other than missed trigger. I feel like making this a missed trigger opens up all sorts of angle shoots.
How does this affect modern splinter twin?!?
Toby says "with the usual flexibility for out-of-order sequencing", so I believe as long as you put the lands in within the batch of actions legally performed, you're OK.
Combo decks use loop rules, which let you combine N repeating actions into one. If you loop and make a billion tokens, you have to put something representing those billion tokens into play before you proceed with gameplay.
Edit: I updated my response to the ETW scenario proposed above in light of Out-of-Order Sequencing.
Last edited by cdr; 03-24-2015 at 10:25 PM.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
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