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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #921
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I don't think the ban of probe effects us that bad as a lot of people started playing probeless manaless a few months ago. I have been on a clean spy list lately.

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Chancellor of the Annex

    4 Balustrade Spy
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    SB:
    4 Force of Will
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    2 Contagion

    I would change the sideboard up now that Drs is gone but the maindeck is solid.

  2. #922
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I run the same MD -1 Flayer, +1 Nether Shadow. No FoW SB though.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  3. #923

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi fellow dredgers!

    Before talking about an important card of the deck (or not!) aka Shambling Shell and introducing a list which I think could be relevant in the new Legacy metagame following the bans of Death Rite Shaman & Gitaxian Probe, I would like to start my first post on The Source by thanking Michael Keller for having been so far one of the biggest contributors to Manaless Dredge, and kind of a Personal Tutor for myself thanks to his numerous and valuable inputs over the years on this forum.

    Thanks a lot Mr Keller, and please don't be too rude if I turn out to be wrong or incomplete on a few points :)


    The card I would like to specifically discuss about is Shambing Shell. To be short, it is in my opinion not relevant enough and we shouldn't play it anymore.

    Let's see why we play it:
    1. The main reason in my opinion: to prevent us from taking mulligans and therefore timewalking us ;
    2. To increase the redundancy of the apparition of dredgers when we dredge ;
    3. To increase the number of black creatures in our deck in order to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow.


    1. What is the real impact in terms of preventing us from taking muligans?
    With only our 12 basic dredgers (Golgari Grave Troll, Stinkweed Imp & Golgari Thug) in a 60 cards list, we have 19,06% of chances of having no dredgers in our starting hand. With the same list and 4 Shambling Shell on top (16 dredgers in total), we end up with 9,92% of chances of having no dredgers.
    The difference is more or less 10%. Only 10%. These 4 slots in your 60 cards list will only be relevant 10% of the time (again, just in terms of muligans), aka when you will have a starting hand composed of one Shambling Shell or more and no other dredgers.
    It's actually even less if you consider the following: in this range of 10% of our games when we take a muligan because we would not be playing Shambling Shell, we get another 80,94% of chances (actually a bit less because we draw only 6 cards) of hiting one of our dredgers. If we get a Golgari Grave Troll, we catch up our Time Walk: Turn1 pass turn discard Shambling Shell Turn2 dredge 3 cards Turn3 dredge 3 cards VS Turn1 Time Walk Turn2 pass turn discard Golgari Grave Troll Turn3 dredge 6 cards. Of course that's considering you don't hit another dredger with you first dredge 3, and keeping a hand thanks to Shambling Shell also gives you the opportunity to draw a better dredger as a 8th card, but even a Muligan + Stinkweed Imp almost equal these games in which we start with two dredges of 3 cards.
    To summarize: regarding decreasing our chances of taking a muligan, Shambling Shell is relevant in less than 10% of the times. And this is if we play 4 of them. The impact is of course greatly lowered for 3 or less copies.

    2. What is the real impact in terms of dredgers redundancy?
    Because of my limited skills in maths I won't be able to provide you with proper percentages here, but to the question "how many dredgers do I need in average to flip my entire library?", my answer remains 4 Golgari Grave Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp & 4 Golgari Thug, period. That's 4x6 + 4x5 + 4x4 = dredge 60 in total for a 60 cards list. Convenient isn't it?
    For sure adding Shambling Shell increases your chances to not fizzle on a dredge, but here too the impact is not relevant enough. We never saw Shambling Shell in a Land/LED Dredge shell and I think that's because our 12 basic dredgers already provide a sane base in terms of dredgers redundancy. Of course Land/LED Dredge has more ways of discarding their cards in hand (although vulnerable to permission), but we play Phantasmagorian and have more opportunities to pass turn/discard/dredge.

    3. What is the impact regarding the number of creatures in the deck?
    When it comes to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell is first of all only helping in Manaless Drege lists than run Whirlpool Rider. Because the other versions run Griselbrand and/or Balustrade Spy as Dread Return targets and/or Dryad Arbor.
    But even in U Manaless Dredge lists, we got Prized Amalgam meanwhile which decreases the impact of the long time played Shambling Shell regarding feeding your recursive creatures.

    Personaly I'm not playing Shambling Shell anymore for years now, and years ago I placed 9th in a 100+ players Legacy event with a Manaless Dredge list including 12 dredgers. Not to show off, just to say that 12 dredgers can make you go through a 10 matchs Legacy event.

    @Mickael Keller: we already got the opportunity a couple of years ago to talk about Shambling Shell on Cockatrice and I think your position has evolved taking into account the last list you have posted here and which includes only 1 Shambling Shell. Get rid of the last one!


    And now the list I propose you and hope to get some feedbacks about:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp

    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid
    3 Nether Shadow
    2 Prized Amalgam
    3 Dryad Arbor

    3 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Whirlpool Rider
    4 Dread Return
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below

    4 Force of Will
    4 Disrupting Shoal

    SB:
    3 Leyline of the Void
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Nature's Claim
    5 Forest

    The idea is that, although we lost Gitaxian Probe in the process, we don't fundamentally need anymore the 12 cards (Chancellor of the Annex, Street Wraith & Phantasmagorian + 2 dredgers) which were preventing us to be hard locked by a DRS on turn 1.
    In another hand, we should expect a bit more of hard lock graveyard hates aka Graffdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Containment Priest & Leyline of the Void. We could afford to lose a few games (and possibly matchs) to a few occurrences of these cards, but what now if they become more frequent?

    The U Manaless shell remains the most optimal in my opinion and can notably fight Rest in Peace & Containment Priest thanks to Disrupting Shoal & Force of Will. But with the loss of Gitaxian Probe we have less chances to counter a Graffdigger's Cage (by double-timewalking ourselves if played on turn 1 anyway) and still lose to Leyline of the Void. Plus one of the deck which we should face even more often will be Death & Taxes, who can protect their Rest in Peace & Containment Priest with a Thalia which prevents us to play our spells, and can even cheat Priest and Thalia through Aether Vial and/or Cavern of Souls.

    If you add to this the possible come back of Tempo T. and more generarily of Daze (which fights well our permission strategy), maybe the time has come for us to come back to Mana :D And that's also the point of this list: the 5 Forest in sideboard are not only there to support your 4 Nature's Claim, but also there to fight Tempo T. & co. (Daze) and Death & Taxes (Thalia). In these matchups cutting the Dread Return plan gives you room for sideboarding. And mostly because they are there for D&T and TT, I play Forest and not Bayou which could oppen us to casting Cabal Therapy.

    Of course the 5 Forest cost you a lot of slots, and that's notably why the list evolved this way: -1 Nether Shadow (balanced with 3 Dryad Arbor and 2 Prized Amalgam) and -1 Phantasmagorian (no DRS around anymore). No more Shambling Shells for the reasons stated above and most of all Disrupting Shoal Main Deck. Which are still relevant with FoW on Games 1, because there are always threaths to our slow departures. And Shoal also compensates the Faerie Macabre MD by staying relevant in a wider range of matchups.

    You can go up to 8 lands post side when relevant, and have 18 blue cards MD for FoW and Shoal. I would have prefered Reverent Silence to Nature's Claim but for now I will stick to the later because I want to probe the amount of Graffdigger's Cage around. We will suffer colateral damages from Reanimator for sure. And Nature's Claim will also help in Death&Taxes matchups to destroy Aether Vial on top of RiP. Leline of Sanctity is there for the reasons explained by Michael Keller above and Leyline of the Void are there to fight Reanimator & Loam decks but also Land/LED Dredge who will come back and still is one of our worst matchups.

  4. #924

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by WarpWorld View Post
    I don't think the ban of probe effects us that bad as a lot of people started playing probeless manaless a few months ago. I have been on a clean spy list lately.

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    3 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Chancellor of the Annex

    4 Balustrade Spy
    2 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Cabal Therapy
    3 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    SB:
    4 Force of Will
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Leyline of the Void
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    2 Contagion

    I would change the sideboard up now that Drs is gone but the maindeck is solid.
    How do you support FoW with that low blue count? I really have had problems with 16 blue cards in the total 75.

    Has it worked out for you?

  5. #925
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    1. You want Faerie main. The amount of Reanimator decks you'll see pop up - at first - will be staggering. This includes Loam strategies, as well. If you look at the lists I've played historically, I always run a pair.
    2. You want Leyline of Sanctity. Badly. Crop Rotation and Thoughtseize decks will emerge.
    3. Four Force or bust main.
    4. Prized Amalgam, the fourth Force and a set of Whirlpool Rider fills out the Probe slot from before.
    5. Mindbreak Trap with Leyline (and Force) shores up the Storm match-up as it always does.
    6. Expect Stoneforge and Rest in Peace/Containment Priest to show up. This is where four Shoals are needed. You have two-cost spells in other Shoals, Narcomoeba and the full set of Riders (twelve total). That with Force should be enough.
    Hi Michael, thanks for the list, it looks round and solid!

    What about Grafdigger's Cage? I expect some of them too. Should we rely only on Force of Will?

  6. #926

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Grafdigger's Cage is no more than a one-of in almost every sideboard. It augments the Surgical Extraction plan to combat decks like Elves and Zenith/Order. There are four Forces in the deck. I wouldn't waste time sideboarding for one card. Force gives you a clear shot at fast combo and works well with the other blue cards in your deck. It's still a flex spot, but I run it.

  7. #927
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by perian View Post
    How do you support FoW with that low blue count? I really have had problems with 16 blue cards in the total 75.

    Has it worked out for you?
    It has worked out fine for me so far. It's our only out the cage now that probe is banned and we can't counter it with Shoal. I don't always bored in all four if I'm boarding in other things in the matchup. That all being said we generally don't see more than the top 8 cards of Our Deck anyways. I'll probably start running more blue Shoals now that rest in peace should see more play.

  8. #928

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Your list is running great on MODO @MichaelKeller :)

    I'm gonna try the following based on what I've encountered on 3 leagues (3-2, 3-2, 4-1):

    • 4 Faeries MB: tons of Reanimator / Fins (UB, RB, Depths and Magus)
    • 3 Mindbreaks on SB (-1): One match vs Storm (won)
    • 4 Shoals on SB (unchanged): D&T with Remorseful Cleric is a pain
    • 1 Vengeful Pharaoh MB: Scooze main on Stifle decks (with Relic SB)
    • 4 Forces to SB: have not needed them MB on G1 (yet)


    16 HORDE
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Ichorid

    14 DREDGE
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    2 Shambling Shell

    8 DISRUPT
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Faerie Macabre

    8 DISCARD / CYCLE
    4 Phantasmagoriam
    4 Street Wraith

    4 DRAW
    4 Whirlpool Rider

    4 TO FIELD
    4 Dread Return

    4 ZOMBIES
    4 Bridge from Below

    2 TARGET
    1 Vengeful Pharaoh
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound


    SIDEBOARD
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Disrupting Shoal
    4 Force of Will
    3 Mindbreak Trap


    :)

    EDIT: maybe the Pharaoh is not that great... maybe

  9. #929

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    Hi fellow dredgers!
    Hi!

    Interesting read, well written. I'd like to discuss a few points.

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    With the same list and 4 Shambling Shell on top (16 dredgers in total), we end up with 9,92% of chances of having no dredgers.
    The difference is more or less 10%. Only 10%.
    Losing a full turn 10% of matches seems like a big deal to me, and something that will affect our win rate negatively. The 4 cards replacing Shambling Shell hopefully makes up for that, but I wouldn't say 10% is no big deal. It is.

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    To summarize: regarding decreasing our chances of taking a muligan, Shambling Shell is relevant in less than 10% of the times. And this is if we play 4 of them. The impact is of course greatly lowered for 3 or less copies.
    The first copy of Shambling Shell makes the most difference, and each one consecutive one adds less chance of having a dredger in the opening hand. So it's not a 0 or 4 decision, 1-2 Shambling Shells can absolutely be worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    When it comes to feed Ichorid and stack on Nether Shadow, Shambling Shell is first of all only helping in Manaless Drege lists than run Whirlpool Rider. Because the other versions run Griselbrand and/or Balustrade Spy as Dread Return targets and/or Dryad Arbor. But even in U Manaless Dredge lists, we got Prized Amalgam meanwhile which decreases the impact of the long time played Shambling Shell regarding feeding your recursive creatures.
    It helps more in U lists, not only in U lists. Also, I would much rather exile a Shambling shell and get Ichorid + Prized Amalgam on the board, than exiling the Amalgam.

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    Personaly I'm not playing Shambling Shell anymore for years now, and years ago I placed 9th in a 100+ players Legacy event with a Manaless Dredge list including 12 dredgers. Not to show off, just to say that 12 dredgers can make you go through a 10 matchs Legacy event.
    Congrats on the finish! I only ever placed well in one big legacy tournament, lost in the semis in a 60-70 person tourmament. That was just before Prized Amalgam came out, I was on the Balustrade Spy version then.
    The thing is, a single good finish in a tournament really doesn't say much about a deck. The sample size is just way too small. Still an impressive finish, good job. :)

    I saw your list and I will present my own, and explain why I play it this way.

    Dredgers
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Golgari Thug
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    1x Shambling Shell

    Explosive Starts, also Surgical Protection
    4x Phantasmagorian
    4x Street Wraith

    Free Creatures
    4x Ichorid
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Nether Shadow
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Bridge from Below

    Combo finish
    4x Dread Return
    4x Whirlpool Rider
    1x Flayer of the Hatebound

    General Protection
    4x Force of Will
    4x Cabal Therapy

    GY Hate / Surgical Protection
    2x Faerie Macabre

    Sideboard
    1x Ashen Rider
    4x Disrupting Shoal
    1x Faerie Macabre
    4x Leyline of Sanctity
    2x Mindbreak Trap
    3x Vengeful Pharaoh

    I would never go below 4 Phantasmagorian and 4 Prized Amalgam. The opening hands of Phantasmagorian, Street Wraith and a dredger are just way too good. Dredging 5-6 in their 2nd turn 2nd main phase, finding a Narcomoeba and triggering 1-2 Amalgams that were dredged/discarded to Phantasmagoria is great. That play also makes the combo finish faster. It doesn't happen all the time obviously, but I'd rather maximize my chances of a fast start in a deck like this.
    The sideboard will of course vary with meta etc, but this is where I'll start after DRS is gone.
    Playing all 4 Prized Amalgams also help with blue card count. Losing Probe sucks, as it helped counter Cage specifically (with Shoal) and stuff in general (with FoW) but I think we still have enough blue sources, especially after boarding.
    I will not play any Shoals in the main. I should probably not even have all 4 FoWs in the main, since it's mostly a dead card. I might switch them for some of the sideboard cards or add some more Shambling Shells, Faeries or Balustrade Spies to the main deck.

    Happy Dredging!

  10. #930
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi,


    I play Manaless as all of you and it' s great to share the ideas!
    If I compare the different list, 54 card on the 60 Main deck are always the same. And the last 6 cards + the 15 from the side are a mix of cards from a common list . My aim is to show we are agree on most of the cards, and to concentrate on the possibility to acheive our list . To sum :

    54/ 60 Main deck :

    14 Dredgers
    4x Golgari Grave-Troll
    4x Golgari Thug
    4x Stinkweed Imp
    2x Shambling Shell

    8 Explosive Starts
    4x Phantasmagorian
    4x Street Wraith

    20 Free Creatures
    4x Ichorid
    4x Narcomoeba
    4x Nether Shadow
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Bridge from Below

    8 Combo finish
    4x Dread Return
    3x Whirlpool Rider
    1x Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 General Protection
    4x Cabal Therapy



    Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
    4x Faerie Macabre
    4x Force of Will

    Cards witch will be in the side :
    4x Disrupting Shoal
    2 x Mindbreak Trap

    Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
    3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap
    4x Leyline of Sanctity
    4x Leyline of the Void
    1x Ashen Rider
    1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh
    0-4x Contagion

    Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
    3rd-4th Shambling Shell
    4th Whirlpool Rider



    Personnally I have decided :

    54 cards main deck as above
    +4 mishra's bauble
    +2 Urza's Bauble
    It's the solution I found to replace gitaxian probe and make the "same effect". It's a bit less powerfull than the original but work however.

    side :
    4x Faerie Macabre
    4x Force of Will
    4x Disrupting Shoal
    3 x Mindbreak Trap
    Nothing original

    From my point of view, the place of Faerie Macabre and Force of Will will be a question of metagame. If reanimator/dredge will be extremely present, Faerie Macabre will be automatically included MD. And this card work also against land.... For Force of Will, we will be happy to find them MD if deck as show and tell will be present.

  11. #931
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Leyline of Sanctity comes in against the following decks and strategies:

    1. Discard-centric decks.
    2. Burn decks.
    3. Storm/Belcher decks.
    4. Crop Rotation->Bog decks.

    It's going to be so good. I remember how many times that card saved me from getting locked out. Don't underestimate its power; it's probably one of the best sideboard options the deck has.



    Excuse me, I haven't played Legacy for a while, but I still own my Manaless Dredge. However, I can't see how Leyline is any good.

    Let's assume we win G1, and our opponent isn't completely braindead.

    -> They let us begin
    -> We have Leyline in our OP7 and play it.
    -> we now have 6 cards in our hand.


    That means our opponent has 3 full turns, doing whatever they want and we can begin to dredge at turn 4 earliest without Street Wraith.

    We don't have any "drawacceleration" so I really can't see where a card like Leyline is any good for us besides burn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
    :16: - (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
    Legendary Creature - Horror
    Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
    Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
    Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
    Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
    13/13

  12. #932

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I have read the discussion about how many dredgers the deck needs and so on. Some years ago I made some calcs for me, maybe they help someone else too to get to the right number of dredgers in their 60.


  13. #933

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by perian View Post
    I have read the discussion about how many dredgers the deck needs and so on. Some years ago I made some calcs for me, maybe they help someone else too to get to the right number of dredgers in their 60.
    Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.

    Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD. To create a list more relevant it's maybe the time to go back with our dear old friend : River Kelpie ...

  14. #934

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenio View Post
    Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.

    Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD. To create a list more relevant it's maybe the time to go back with our dear old friend : River Kelpie ...
    This isn't the whole consideration, you need to calculate the odds of drawing 2 Dredgers because of how Surgical Extraction, or Faerie Macabre, remove the first Dredger from the gave yard. Redundancy is your best strategy vs hate, and there's nothing really worth cutting Dredgers for at this point as the deck looks to fill the last 4 slots with anything of justifiable value.

  15. #935

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Losing a full turn 10% of matches seems like a big deal to me, and something that will affect our win rate negatively. The 4 cards replacing Shambling Shell hopefully makes up for that, but I wouldn't say 10% is no big deal. It is.
    I guess it's a matter of point of view, for me taking a muligan in 10% of my games is not a big deal.
    But I agree when you say that we shouldn't go under 4 Phantasmagorian. And I would maintain the same reasonning regarding Nether Shadow actually.
    The list I posted was actually bad but I managed to build a similar one with 4 samples of the above cards.

    Regarding Prized Amalgam however, I keep thinking that it is not necessary to have 4 of them, especially if you don't have the FoW/Shoal pack.
    True that it helps more in U list but that it is also usefull in G list, but the 12 recursive creatures we have are already enough in my opinion.
    Prized Amalgam is just butter on your pop-tarts.
    They are better than Dryad Arbor against Miracle (because they can arrive EoT after a Terminus) but also slower for that same reason.

    Thanks you for this graph. It's show we got 85% for the usual 12 dredger, add 2 shambling shell get us to 90% when 4 only get us to ~93%, that's why I play 2 shambling shell MD.
    Well I would like to be at 85% chances with 12 dredgers, but it's actually only 81%.
    The graph of Perian is nice to have a overview, thanks dude.

    Some list try to fight cage and RIP with mana, I think that if we want to go this way the sideboard is too short and Dryad arbor is not op in the MD.
    I agree that fighting Cage is probably useless, but Dryad Arbor is also a free creature that increases our chances to Dread Return earlier.
    It also helps to fight Daze which became more frequent and allows you to play your spells under Thalia.
    I'm starting to think that Dryad Arbor is actually becoming optimal now.
    And keep in mind that Reverent Silence is not only usefull against RiP & Leyline of the void, it also gets rid of the nasty enchantments played by Miracle aka Moat and Humility.
    And if you really fear Containment Priest, you can always pack Contagion/Sickening Shoal (the latter being undervalued in my opinion taking into account its interraction with Phantasmagorian).

    This isn't the whole consideration, you need to calculate the odds of drawing 2 Dredgers because of how Surgical Extraction, or Faerie Macabre, remove the first Dredger from the gave yard. Redundancy is your best strategy vs hate, and there's nothing really worth cutting Dredgers for at this point as the deck looks to fill the last 4 slots with anything of justifiable value.
    I totally agree that redundancy is the big plus of Manaless Dredge, and that it is the best strategy against soft graveyard hate (Surgical Extraction, Relic of Progenitus, etc.).
    The problem is: following the ban of Death Rith Shaman, hard graveyard hates will show up more often (RiP, Leyline, Cage).
    And redundancy is not enough anymore.
    I maintain that we shouldn't be playing Shambling Shell. Don't seek control, aim for victory.

  16. #936

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by vieko View Post
    EDIT: maybe the Pharaoh is not that great... maybe
    Pharaoh's stock may be higher again with the anticipated rise of Reanimator.

  17. #937
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi,

    for the moment it's strange but there is not an increase of reanimator in the tournament. We see :

    - canadian RUG is strongly back
    - death and taxes is T1
    - decks combo lands with Knight of the Reliquary are extremely present

    if Lands will be T1, maybe we will have to add Snapback in side to counter Knight of the Reliquary and Dark Depths ?

  18. #938

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    Well I would like to be at 85% chances with 12 dredgers, but it's actually only 81%.
    That's correct. The 85% is with 8 cards drawn @12 dredgers.
    Btw. 7+6 means combined probability of draw 7 & mulligan to 6 (only mulligan if no dredger is in the first 7, without scry - this was no thing back in the days)

    I also intended to post the related tables with the numbers and some additional information, but the quality of the pic was too bad to read anything. Maybe I will try again if I find another way to present them in a proper way...

  19. #939

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by C4Ctu5 View Post
    I guess it's a matter of point of view, for me taking a muligan in 10% of my games is not a big deal.
    But I agree when you say that we shouldn't go under 4 Phantasmagorian. And I would maintain the same reasonning regarding Nether Shadow actually.
    The list I posted was actually bad but I managed to build a similar one with 4 samples of the above cards.

    Regarding Prized Amalgam however, I keep thinking that it is not necessary to have 4 of them, especially if you don't have the FoW/Shoal pack.
    True that it helps more in U list but that it is also usefull in G list, but the 12 recursive creatures we have are already enough in my opinion.
    Prized Amalgam is just butter on your pop-tarts.
    Agree to disagree then. :)

    I still play FoWs, so that factors into my evaluation of Amalgam, but I think they would still be pretty great without FoW. They make the combo finish require one less Dread Return, since you don't need to DR a big creature (like GGT) to deal the last damage after Flayer, the Prized Amalgams will enter in end step and deal 6/9/12 damage. Also, like you said, they dodge Terminus. I don't see me going below 4 Amalgams anytime soon.

    I've goldfished a bit with River Kelpie in my deck, and I think I might try that route, with ~2 in the main. Sometimes they are better DR targets than Whirlpool Rider, and they can also be pitched to FoW, or to Shoal to counter an opposing FoW I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller
    Pharaoh's stock may be higher again with the anticipated rise of Reanimator.
    I've also found it useful against D&T and creature decks in general. Besides just killing stuff, D&T having a first strike creature (Thalia) makes Pharaoh able to mess with combat math.

  20. #940
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yeah, Amalgam is a 4-off period. Regardless of if you're on a blue list or straight Spy.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

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