[PRIMER] Oozing

[pandaman]

Honestly, I need to hone my playskill online, I know I would get better simply from the more volume of practise. Hey Raystar, do you still think about a list with counterspells? I sometimes do... something along the lines of the old list with only Buried Alive for the combo, before Griselbrand came along. It would require a Blue shell of course:

I present to you, a Pandaman 61-card special, fuelled by 5 hours sleep, copious playtesting with a totally unrelated deck yesterday, and my morning coffee:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba
1 Griselbrand

4 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume
1 Reanimate

4 Entomb
2 Buried Alive

1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ux Fetches
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

Sideboard (15)

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
7 x

EDIT: Painter/Stone combo is so much stupider than SnT/Emrakul. You take out the main Ooze combo postboard, leaving in the Entomb+Shallow Grave into Griselbrand only, and bring in PainterStone.

EDIT: This is so stupid I'm actually going to test it.

[Raystar]

Honestly, I need to hone my playskill online, I know I would get better simply from the more volume of practise. Hey Raystar, do you still think about a list with counterspells? I sometimes do...

I also do...a lot.

The problem is that running FoW means raising the amount of U cards in the deck. We could probably get away with playing 3 FoW and a Pact of Negation (or stifles, I like stifles) in place of the Probes. Additionally we could go down 1 Ooze (this I don't like) to add another counter (not FoW, flusterstorm? Pierce?). The therapies would have to change into Thoughtseize.

I'm not sure I like it, though. The probes act as cantrip 9-12 and are often key to go through a critical Ponder. To be honest I have always stopped just before testing the addition of counters, I'm not sure they would provide a real edge when we play against our bad matchups (they pack way more permission than we would be capable to) and against the rest, well...we don't seem to have many problems

I'm also hoping that DTT will hit the ground with a ban (the card is nuts beyond belief...), that would lower the Miracles presence and raise again the number of BUG decks. This would also work against RUG decks that are a very good matchup for BUG...and BUG is one of the best of our bad matchups.

I'm testing Desecration Demon in the sideboard but during the last week I haven't played a lot (work is killing me) and I played against everything except Tempo decks...as soon as I have better data I'll let you guys know.

In an ideal meta with a DtB setup like this: BUG, RUG, ANT, D&T, Elves (assuming Miracles going down without DTT) we would be capable to offer very very good results...we have a very good matchup against ANT, Elves and D&T, we can play against BUG and we only really suffer against RUG.

To provide a better answer (I was a bit of a dick before) to the question "why do we have such a bad matchup against certain decks" I can offer this: the real bad matchups are Miracles, RUG and UWR. These decks can be divided in two groups:

• Miracle: they have a ton of control and they can almost lock us out with CB+Top. Post-side they bring in RiP and Vendilion adding clock to their hate. Barring a very fast start, Oozing plays in catchup mode.
• RUG and UWR: the problem here is that they can also hit us on the strategy that generally hurts BUG: they have good removal against the Ooze in addition to a very good clock. UWR, post-side becomes a real problem with Meddling Mage and RiP.

EDIT: you edited while I was writing

[pandaman]

Funnily enough, BUG is easier than RUG/American Delver BECAUSE it as Shaman. It's like a person approaching you to hold you up with a gun - the fact they have the weapon gives them enough of a false sense of power that they don't see your disarmament technique coming.

[Raystar]

Ok, I'll bite...what about:

2 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba
1 Griselbrand

4 Shallow Grave
1 Exhume
1 Reanimate

4 Entomb
2 Buried Alive

2 Swamp
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
3 Ux Fetches
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

This way you have a ton of disruption, you can still play at least 2 Oozes and still stay on 15 lands....

[pandaman]

Well, let's give it a crack when we get the chance. The problem with U is that the maindeck gets so tight. What do you take out to board? I think, therefore, U leads to transformational side boarding, like my original Ooze list used to do.

[Kanti]

Don't think you need counters, but definately think the deck needs more than CT+GP as protection. Cutting some GP's for Thoughtseize could be an idea. I've cut one before I even tested the original list and have more than happy whenever I have drawn it. Never once wanted it to be a Gitaxian Probe.

[pandaman]

I was never a Probe fan, but am giving it the time of day on Raystar Sensei's recommendation. My usual suite is 4 Seize 3 Therapy, with a fourth in SB. But Probe is good and it says "draw a card" on it.

[Kanti]

Whats you current list look like? I thought you were playing the op. If you aren't playing with 3-4 Probes are you playing with the 16th land?

[pandaman]

Current list is as per my tournament report a few posts ago. The list I used to previously make the elimination rounds was slightly different in all three incarnations. The first two times I maxed out on combo pieces and only had four Thoughtseize maindeck for disuprtion (boarding in three Therapies). Then I moved to three Therapy two Thoughtseize two Probe (boarding the fourth therapy and Thoughtseize 3 and 4). The former config got me Top 4 and 8 and the latter top 2, all in 5-rounders. We always go round and round with the disruption question, because sometimes you just don't need it because you can assemble more ways to combo than opp. has ways to stop you and before they kill you. I think that's why the 4 Thoughtseize build succeeded despite seeming "weak." And I must admit I was playing much more regularly with the deck back then and was much more familiar with it.

[Raystar]

I was never a Probe fan, but am giving it the time of day on Raystar Sensei's recommendation. My usual suite is 4 Seize 3 Therapy, with a fourth in SB. But Probe is good and it says "draw a card" on it.

*goes to hide after the Sensei thing...

The probe thing is not a million times better than a full discard suite configuration...to me it's "a little bit" better. Against a deck that packs counterspells you need to know which route to take and being able to do it on T1 for free is amazing. The "draw a card" story is incredibly good for Oozing, we can't pack 10 cantrips like ANT does (they also play the probes in addition to those, btw) and not having the probes reduces the consistency of the deck...a lot.

[pandaman]

I would argue it's playable without Probes, but essentially you're playing a 56 card deck if you have them. Which would be good but the free information is amazing. However, I don't mind grinding a bit harder knowing you have seven discard slots maindeck. You have go trust in the Ooze for it to work, though.

[Karhumies]

Back in the day, in a FoW list with transformational SB, I used to run MD Lim-Dul's Vault. Hits everything pre and post SB, pitches to FoW, as long as you are not looking for a 1-of you can typically afford the life loss.

-1 card yes, but tutors as an instant in opponent's end step to top of library. As a t2 play to set up t3 mana accel + BA + animation it used to be nice due to hitting everything.



If you want to go a wackier route, try 4x FoW in the SB against faster, less consistent combos. They come in g2 on the draw.

[Raystar]

Back in the day, in a FoW list with transformational SB, I used to run MD Lim-Dul's Vault. Hits everything pre and post SB, pitches to FoW, as long as you are not looking for a 1-of you can typically afford the life loss.

-1 card yes, but tutors as an instant in opponent's end step to top of library. As a t2 play to set up t3 mana accel + BA + animation it used to be nice due to hitting everything.



If you want to go a wackier route, try 4x FoW in the SB against faster, less consistent combos. They come in g2 on the draw.

Ok, diagonal thinking here: what if instead of LDV we try DTT?

[Raystar]

Ok, diagonal thinking here: what if instead of LDV we try DTT?

Or even crazier...what if we get rid of Griselbrand and we pack 4 DTT?

[Raystar]

Or even crazier...what if we get rid of Griselbrand and we pack 4 DTT?

I think this is a stupid suggestion, btw. In any case if LDV makes sense, then DTT makes even more...

[Raystar]

I think this is a stupid suggestion, btw. In any case if LDV makes sense, then DTT makes even more...

To put my money where my mouth is:


3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time

4 Entomb
3 Buried Alive
4 Shallow Grave
2 Reanimate

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

1 Griselbrand
3 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Putrid Imp
1 Triskelion


Of course it needs to be tested...

[Poron]

dig through time is great also to remove cards from your graveyard alone.

Shallow Grave takes the top card of your graveyard. something can always go wrong...

[Raystar]

dig through time is great also to remove cards from your graveyard alone.

Shallow Grave takes the top card of your graveyard. something can always go wrong...

That is not a very common occurrence but yes, it could help. It can also buy a couple of turns against a Goyf or deactivate damage/mana for a Shaman...

[pandaman]

I am a big LDV fan but can't find space right now. The eight cantrips are just too good. I would love to make DTT work here, but I hate the UU thing in a deck that combos with B because I can't run it out on basics. At the moment the deck is miraculously resilient to Wasteland and I wouldn't want to change if unless we got something good in exchange. DTT might just be that thing.

[Kanti]

*goes to hide after the Sensei thing...

The probe thing is not a million times better than a full discard suite configuration...to me it's "a little bit" better. Against a deck that packs counterspells you need to know which route to take and being able to do it on T1 for free is amazing. The "draw a card" story is incredibly good for Oozing, we can't pack 10 cantrips like ANT does (they also play the probes in addition to those, btw) and not having the probes reduces the consistency of the deck...a lot.

Well the idea is that you will still know which route to take after hitting off a discard spell t1. If I'm not doing anything on t1 except casting GP and leaving a mana-open I probably should just be casting a discard spell. Probe sometimes feels like I've just cast Duress against DnT- I can see the Thalia, I just can't touch her. That said it cantrips, gives information, and is FREE. I have loved the Probes so far, but don't think that a list with 7 discard spells would be worse by much, especially as Probe doesn't have much value in this deck with Griselbrand, as far as I can see at least.