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Thread: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

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    [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    So, last night, while i was drunk as fk i had this wonderfull idea.
    Build a deck, legal in legacy, able to totally mindfuck your local judge

    So the idea is that you have an insane number of triggers to resolve in order to win, and you MUST resolve them, you can't just assume that you will win after, because its totally random.

    I came up with this list

    4 Burning Wish
    3 Show and Tell
    4 Dig Through Time
    4 Omniscience
    1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    1 Remand
    4 Force of Will
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Pyromancer Ascension
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Island
    1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
    2 City of Traitors
    3 Flusterstorm
    1 Preordain
    1 Final Fortune
    1 Enter the Infinite

    SB: 1 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Enter the Infinite
    SB: 1 Golden Wish
    SB: 1 Dual Nature
    SB: 2 Doubling Season
    SB: 1 Grip of Chaos
    SB: 1 Helm of the Gods
    SB: 1 Opalescence
    SB: 1 Overmaster
    SB: 2 Pyroclasm
    SB: 2 Defense Grid
    SB: 1 Ashnod's Altar



    The gameplan is:
    1) Show an Omniscience and then wish an enter the infinite, the cast final fortune and go in the extra turn
    2) Charge your Pyromancer ascensions (you can use more copies of S&T or counters)
    3) Play Akroma
    4) Cast a burning wish and get all your wishboard
    5) Cast a golden wish, remand the original and recast it, so you can wish for 9 enchantment

    6) Cast Opalescence
    7) Cast dual nature (it will trigger on itself, so you end up with 2 of them)
    8) Cast Doubling season, as it come into play both dual nature will trigger, so the first trigger give you 1 copy *2 and the second give you 1 copy *2^3
    9) Cast the second doubling seasons, the amount of doubling seasons you get is INSANE, in the end you have a total of 1044388881413152506691752710716624382579964249047383780384233483283953907971557456848826811934997558340890106714439262837987573438185793607263236087851365277945956976543709998340361590134383718314428070011855946226376318839397712745672334684344586617496807908705803704071284048740118609114467977783598029006686938976881787785946905630190260940599579453432823469303026696443059025015972399867714215541693835559885291486318237914434496734087811872639496475100189041349008417061675093668333850551032972088269550769983616369411933015213796825837188091833656751221318492846368125550225998300412344784862595674492194617023806505913245610825731835380087608622102834270197698202313169017678006675195485079921636419370285375124784014907159135459982790513399611551794271106831134090584272884279791554849782954323534517065223269061394905987693002122963395687782878948440616007412945674919823050571642377154816321380631045902916136926708342856440730447899971901781465763473223850267253059899795996090799469201774624817718449867455659250178329070473119433165550807568221846571746373296884912819520317457002440926616910874148385078411929804522981857338977648103126085903001302413467189726673216491511131602920781738033436090243804708340403154194444 Doubling Seasons in play, you should actually print this number a bunch of times so you can use it as a counter to put on your seasons and future enchantments, because from now on every single ench you play will get doubled this number of times
    10) Cast your grip of chaos and put a 2^doubling seasons counter on it
    11) Go for the Helm of the Gods on akroma now, you have also your Ashnod's Altar so you have the mana to equip a bunch of times (remember all your ench are also creature you can sac)

    12) Call the judge

    Finally you call the judge, you explain to him that you have no clue how to resolve the grip of chaos, and you must know if you get the helm on akroma, because is the only creature with haste you control and in the EOT you lose the game so you cant just wait, if the judge try to tell you forgot some trigger tell him you have exactly 2^1044388......54194444 grip of chaos trigger, and you and your opponent agree on shortcut them (well actually ask your opponent) so each time you cast a spell/ability with a single target you just have to say all grip's trigger and you dont have to put them on stack one by one, but now you have no idea how to solve the situation, you have a 100k digit number of trigger to solve and each trigger will make you chose at random between a milionK digits number of permanent


    13) ???

    14) Profit, if he find a way to solve it it will still take ours to do so, and the setup is pretty easy you can do it in any game, if you dont feel like it but you wanna win you can just equip the helm before you go "infinite"


    Any idea on how to improve the deck?
    I know you could go for 4 doubling seasons, but then you will not be able to write on paper how many of them you control w/o using conway chained arrow notation, so i think this is enought
    Last edited by Noctalor; 07-19-2015 at 07:56 PM.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    I love you.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    I'm crying

  4. #4
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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Is there any way to do this without Ashnod's Altar? That gives you an easy way to sacrifice down creatures until you have 14 other than akroma, with a billion billion mana floating. That would let you pretty easily equip it to her (assuming you shortcut randomly assigned equip abilities to just the one that matters).

    Does Battle Hymn do it? That would give you 1 mana per creature, making it actually possible to equip it to akroma, while not making it as easy as 1/15 chance a trillion times.

    I have a friend who judges our Vintage tournaments, I think I'm going to make this deck just for him. Losing a tournament would make it so worth it.

    EDIT: Wait, what about Enchanted Evening with Thran Dynamo? Can we fit it in the sideboard? That'd be a ridiculously high number of mana producing artifact enchantments that has an even higher number of creatures to randomly assign the equipment to, without a possibility of making an easier way to attach the equipment by sacrificing the arbitrarily high number of creatures.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    I think you need City of Solitude somewhere so that you don't need to tak care of the opponent at all. Although you'll draw your whole deck and lots of counterspells, you still can't fight through Maze or Karakas.

  6. #6

    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    You can actually just slam a Thran Dynamo, no need for more activation even a single one is too much to handle, but ofc we play Gilded Lotus over it because we can play Gilded Lotus in a tournament.

    Agree on the city, we can just cut a defence grid for it.

    So the new sideboard looks like this

    SB: 1 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Enter the Infinite
    SB: 1 Golden Wish
    SB: 1 Dual Nature
    SB: 2 Doubling Season
    SB: 1 Grip of Chaos
    SB: 1 Helm of the Gods
    SB: 1 Opalescence
    SB: 1 Overmaster
    SB: 2 Pyroclasm
    SB: 1 Defense Grid
    SB: 1 City of Solitude
    SB: 1 Gilded Lotus


    Is funny how this deck is actually close to a tier1, just w/o a sideboard


    PS: Enchanted Evening + dynamo makes all your dynamos turn into ench, also turning into creature, you get a million of them but they cant tap for mana because they need haste
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    PS: Enchanted Evening + dynamo makes all your dynamos turn into ench, also turning into creature, you get a million of them but they cant tap for mana because they need haste
    You may cast them from Omni before playing the Final Fortune.
    edit: crap, you can't, as then the judge would simply tell you to not bother with Akroma, Helm and Final Fortune , and kill with Dynamos.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Oh, right about the haste. My problem with it though is only getting 3 mana means you only can do the equip ability 3 times. Can't this ability be shortcutted into "just use the last redirect from Grip of Chaos since the previous ones don't matter"?

    Here's a new idea: Wild Defiance, Ensnaring Bridge, and a spell that can target a creature, let's go with Sea Kings' Blessing for stupidity factor that even allows you to target more than 1 creature for a mathematically optimal chance of winning.

    Play wild defiance before Doubling Season Shenanigans, so you don't get screwed too hard with making Akroma larger than your deck size/hand size. Play enter the infinite, if you haven't.

    With Ensnaring Bridge out, you can't have Akroma get targetted to +3/+3 more than the number of cards in your deck. Target Akroma with Sea Kings' Blessing for a +3/+3 Wild Defiance bonus, then Grip of Chaos goes off. Now every single redirect from Grip of Chaos is important, as you need to get Akroma bigger than 20 power but less than your hand/deck size, or you can't attack. SKB allows you to target multiple creatures, so you could make this X choose Y even more ridiculous.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Oh, right about the haste. My problem with it though is only getting 3 mana means you only can do the equip ability 3 times. Can't this ability be shortcutted into "just use the last redirect from Grip of Chaos since the previous ones don't matter"?

    Here's a new idea: Wild Defiance, Ensnaring Bridge, and a spell that can target a creature, let's go with Sea Kings' Blessing for stupidity factor that even allows you to target more than 1 creature for a mathematically optimal chance of winning.

    Play wild defiance before Doubling Season Shenanigans, so you don't get screwed too hard with making Akroma larger than your deck size/hand size. Play enter the infinite, if you haven't.

    With Ensnaring Bridge out, you can't have Akroma get targetted to +3/+3 more than the number of cards in your deck. Target Akroma with Sea Kings' Blessing for a +3/+3 Wild Defiance bonus, then Grip of Chaos goes off. Now every single redirect from Grip of Chaos is important, as you need to get Akroma bigger than 20 power but less than your hand/deck size, or you can't attack. SKB allows you to target multiple creatures, so you could make this X choose Y even more ridiculous.
    You are right, the judge may be smart enought to avoid all the grip of chaos trigger but one, and i really like your solution.

    But here we go for efficiency, judge's soul have to suffer as much as possible, so we will not pick a narrow card for the target, instead we will chose a cool looking Ground Rift, and make sure to have no clue about the spell count when you call the judge, so cast random spells before you go big.

    So the improved sideboard should be


    SB: 1 Show and Tell
    SB: 1 Enter the Infinite
    SB: 1 Golden Wish
    SB: 1 Dual Nature
    SB: 2 Doubling Season
    SB: 1 Grip of Chaos
    SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
    SB: 1 Opalescence
    SB: 1 Overmaster
    SB: 1 Pyroclasm
    SB: 1 Defense Grid
    SB: 1 City of Solitude
    SB: 1 Wild Defiance
    SB: 1 Ground Rift

    Having ground rift we can't play akroma anymore, so we must pick the second best creature for yolo points, i suggest Wu Scout (this way we are sure we can attack for the kill, blockers should not be a problem) and man we even get to ask the judge wtf is horsemanship, just remeber to play this guy before you time walk, but to play city of solitude first, and we could even cast this guy pre combo to peek the opponent hand :O


    PS: Protips, if you play this deck be sure to have a friend that will tell the judge he made this deck for you, so you can just go for the "i have no idea how this work" line if needed
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Wait we don't need a creature. Our first copy of Omniscince is going to be online when we start our FF turn. We can still go the Wild Defiance Ensnaring Bridge route with that. We could even have other dumb haste creatures just so there are other things to keep track of than just the 1. Just make sure you don't have 20 power available without Wild Defiance triggers. This would even give us design space for banding or any other terrible rules cards.

    I'm just worried the opponent will scoop in response to us "going off."

    EDIT: Also, flaw in the original gameplan, won't Remand deck ourselves after we already Enter the Infinite'd? That could just be replaced with a copy of Golden Wish maindeck, right?
    Last edited by Phoenix Ignition; 07-20-2015 at 06:56 PM.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Wait we don't need a creature. Our first copy of Omniscince is going to be online when we start our FF turn. We can still go the Wild Defiance Ensnaring Bridge route with that. We could even have other dumb haste creatures just so there are other things to keep track of than just the 1. Just make sure you don't have 20 power available without Wild Defiance triggers. This would even give us design space for banding or any other terrible rules cards.

    I'm just worried the opponent will scoop in response to us "going off."

    EDIT: Also, flaw in the original gameplan, won't Remand deck ourselves after we already Enter the Infinite'd? That could just be replaced with a copy of Golden Wish maindeck, right?
    First thing, we play 2 enter the infinite, one maindeck and one in the board, so we can go for the remand plan w/o decking, the second EtI will draw0 and put back 1 before we go off.

    And yup, we can just use the omni we have in play to attack, dumb me forgot it, so we can cut creatures, and we get a free slot.

    For the opponent scoop just make sure he know you dont have won, you actually have a small percentage you will win, maybe tell him you have to go random because you burned a key spell or something like that, sooner or later you will find a player that wanna take his chance to free win

    If we want to play some strange card i would totally use the slot we got for a 1x Goblin Game no way you can find something more dumb.
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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    EDIT: Sea King's blessing doesn't work quite as you would like... Grip only reselects targets if the spell has a single target. If you target more than one with Sea King, Grip won't do anything at all.

    True, by the time you Remand you will have trivially gotten both copies of Enter so you can put 1 card back on top. But be careful... by that stage you will have 3 online Pyromancers, so you will have 4 Remands. As long as they all point at the Golden Wish original, I guess it's fine. At that point, Remand could also be Venser, Shaper Savant, which could be less awkward.

    OH MAN.

    Ok, an even better use of Venser would be:
    1) Do all your crazy stuff
    2) With an enchantment on the stack, cast Venser.
    4) Venser enters the battlefield:
    -a) put its trigger on the stack, targeting itself (getting randomly reselected)
    -b) triggers to put a ton of Venser copies get put on the stack
    -c) Grip of Chaos randomly reselects each Venser target a ton of times

    Now what happens? If any of the Vensers bounce an actual card, Dual Nature makes all the tokens leave the battlefield too. Otherwise, you just eliminate some copies. The outcome of all those bounces determines how many of the enchantment enter the battlefield. Ideally pick an enchantment that makes Omniscience bigger, so the number of copies that enter determine whether you can attack at all and whether the attack will be lethal. You could also accidentally bounce the single Omniscience or Opalescence, stopping you from attacking.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Sadly, I think the idea is sunk by this rule:
    3.3. Tournament Error Slow Play

    Definition

    A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating Stalling.

    It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Sadly, I think the idea is sunk by this rule:
    3.3. Tournament Error Slow Play

    Definition

    A player takes longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating Stalling.

    It is also slow play if a player continues to execute a loop without being able to provide an exact number of iterations and the expected resulting game state.
    That's sad.
    So WotC basically left a back door open in anticipating cases like this (4 Horsemen being the previous example) thus leaving it to player's responsibility when the rules+interactions create such a nightmare scenario and rulings worm hole.
    Sad, sad day for humanity...

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    So, last night, while i was drunk as fk i had this wonderfull idea.
    Build a deck, legal in legacy, able to totally mindfuck your local judge
    You made my day, thanks:)

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Wait a minute, won't you just deck yourself off the Remand carddraw?
    Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    That's sad.
    So WotC basically left a back door open in anticipating cases like this (4 Horsemen being the previous example) thus leaving it to player's responsibility when the rules+interactions create such a nightmare scenario and rulings worm hole.
    Sad, sad day for humanity...
    Yeah, but your opponent or the judge still has to know they can call you out for that. That last tournament I saw 4 Horsemen in it got a Deck Tech article from SCG and it made it several rounds until someone finally called the pilot out for slow play.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    That's sad.
    So WotC basically left a back door open in anticipating cases like this (4 Horsemen being the previous example) thus leaving it to player's responsibility when the rules+interactions create such a nightmare scenario and rulings worm hole.
    Sad, sad day for humanity...
    Come on, don't give up that easily. We just need the opponent to control all the spells and triggers involved, and then we won't be the ones executing a loop at all. If anything, our opponent would be slow playing. I have a pretty good idea of how to do this (involving giving the opponent an Ink-Treader Nephilim) but I don't have time to flesh it out right now. You could probably also accomplish something with a bunch of copies of Hive Mind (all Donated), but I think the Nephilim route will be more compact.

    Edit: Okay, here it is. I optimized for probability of winning close to 1 and easy to compute, and few extraneous cards.

    Relevant maindeck:
    3 Show and Tell
    4 Omniscience
    3 Enter the Infinite
    1 Pyromancer Ascension
    1 Venser, Shaper Savant
    4 Burning Wish


    Sideboard:
    1 Show and Tell
    1 Enter the Infinite
    1 Spitting Image
    1 Golden Wish
    1 Donate
    1 Cultural Exchange
    1 Dual Nature
    1 Opalescence
    1 Hive Mind
    1 Forsaken Wastes
    1 Grip of Chaos


    1) Show an Omniscience, cast Enter the Infinite, and charge the Ascension.
    2) Cast Burning Wish, getting Spitting Image and Golden Wish
    3) Cast Golden Wish. Let the Ascension copy resolve, getting Dual Nature. Cast Venser and bounce Golden Wish. Cast Dual Nature.
    4) Cast Spitting Image. Let the Ascension copy resolve, copying Venser. The copy dies to the legend rule and bounces Venser. Cast Venser, triggering Dual Nature. Venser bounces Spitting Image, and the copy dies to the legend rule and bounces Venser.
    5) Cast a second Burning Wish. Let the Ascension copy resolve, getting Donate. Cast Venser, triggering Dual Nature. Venser bounces Burning Wish, and the copy dies to the legend rule and bounces Venser.
    6) Repeat (5) to fetch the remaining sorceries (just Cultural Exchange), then repeat with Golden Wish for the remaining enchantments.
    7) Cast Forsaken Wastes, Dual Nature, and Opalescence.
    8) Cast Spitting Image to copy Dual Nature, returning Spitting Image to your hand as in (5). (Extra Venser tokens from more Dual Nature triggers just bounce themselves.) Repeat a bunch of times, so that you have a large number of Dual Natures. Call this number N.
    9) Use the same procedure as (8) to produce N3/2-3N Pyromancer's Ascension tokens, so that you will end up with just about N3/2 total permanents.
    10) Repeatedly cast Donate and bounce it with Venser to give away all your Ascension tokens.
    11) Cast Hive Mind and Grip of Chaos, making N copies of each.
    12) Cast Cultural Exchange. Your opponent gets a bunch of copies from Hive Mind, but you choose what creatures to swap when the original resolves. Choose so that your opponent controls all the Hive Minds and Grips of Chaos as well as the Forsaken Wastes and the original Ascension (and most of the token Ascensions).
    13) Cast Spitting Image, targeting an Ascension. If your opponent is smart, they will stack all the Grip of Chaos triggers above all the Hive Mind triggers.
    14) Now, if the initial Grip triggers send the original Spitting Image at the Forsaken Wastes enough times, you lose. The probably of you getting hit at least once is less than (#Grips)/(#permanents)=N-1/2. Then, if any Spitting Image copy resolves targeting Forsaken Wastes before your opponent is dead, the copy removes the original and then Dual Nature removes the copy and your opponent will not lose. The probability of this happening is less than (#Hives)/(#permanents)=N-1/2. Assuming that doesn't happen, if enough of the copies get redirected to the Forsaken Wastes enough times, you win. The expected number of hits against the opponent is binomially distributed with mean (#Grips)*(#Hives)/(#permanents)=N1/2 and standard deviation sqrt((#Grips)*(#Hives)/(#permanents))=N1/4. This puts your probability of winning close to 1 for large N (if opponent is at 20, 1% chance of failure at N=100, 1.1*10-10 probability of failure at N=1000). If that does not kill your opponent, you can't do anything else useful with the Grips in play, and you lose to a large attack.
    Last edited by psly4mne; 06-11-2017 at 02:08 AM.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Gotta make a post to give credit where credit is due, that last post is incredible. Think I'll give this build a go some time
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: [Legacy] Judge Destroyer 1.0

    Thanks! I figured out how to do it without an extra targeting spell by being a little more careful with the numbers, so no more Riding Red Hare.

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