[Article] No Reserved List Legacy

[jrsthethird]

I've complained about card prices for years, and I won't argue that it's not tough to sink hundreds of dollars into the land-base for a deck that's otherwise pretty similar to its incarnation in other formats. But if anything is killing Legacy, it's the stupidity of people who don't seem to notice that Tarmogoyf is more expensive than most of the dual lands, not the price of said dual lands or the fact that they're not coming back.

Modern prices are pretty huge too. It's really the Shocks vs. Duals that keeps the price significantly below Legacy, when you look at averages. Sure, we have $150+ fringe cards like Recruiter, Cradle, Chains, Tabernacle, Eureka, etc. (I use the word fringe because you can play the format without investing in those cards, even if the card is only included in a single DTB), but most of the staple non-land cards are cheaper than Goyfs. If you are a player with a sizable Modern collection, you can trade your Goyfs and Lilianas for FOWs and Wastelands (and more) and have an entire Delver deck without the 6 dual lands necessary. Might have to pick up some C/U cards like Daze but that's negligible (and compensated by the value gained in trading down Goyfs/Lilis).

But a counterpoint to your argument is that Legacy has a defined cap on the number of possible players due to the Reserved List. It makes complete sense that Wizards and SCG are pulling back support, since supporting Legacy at the same level that they support Modern or Standard is completely impossible without removing the Reserved List (or at least making an exception for dual lands). I don't know the exact numbers on print runs of ABU/Revised, but the number of dual lands in existence is finite. There is nothing killing Legacy per se, but the Reserved List effectively caps its growth.

[barcode]

Modern prices are pretty huge too. It's really the Shocks vs. Duals that keeps the price significantly below Legacy, when you look at averages.

That is only because WoTC reprinted the shocklands en masse. Remember when shocklands were >$40 each and climbing? Remember when Thoughtseize was >$70 each and climbing?

This is the lesson they learned with Chronicles. Now, years later, the shock land prices are still in the dumps because countless million shocklands were printed. It's just now they don't give a fuck about Modern collectors.

[Blastoderm]

....

It's just now they don't give a fuck about Modern collectors.

And why should they?

[Dice_Box]

They shouldn't. Personally, I want to see a wide reprinting of all the Modern staples. I don't feel a staple in a format designed to get around the reserved list should cost 200 dollars.

I would also like them to bite the bullet and admit that Modern is now above the power level they wished for the format and print direct to Modern cards. The idea that you can move from Standard straight into Modern is a joke and that old excuse holds no water in my opinion.

[jrsthethird]

They could introduce them into the Modern format with the next Modern Masters.

The problem with letting sets like Commander and Conspiracy be Modern-legal is that you can't distinguish original cards made for the set with non-Modern reprints. If Commander and Conspiracy were made Modern legal, we'd get Brainstorm in Modern. And you think Flusterstorm is expensive now?

[barcode]

And why should they?

Magic is a collectible card game. Why should people collect the cards or buy packs if there is no security in their secondary value?

[TsumiBand]

Magic is a collectible card game. Why should people collect the cards or buy packs if there is no security in their secondary value?

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

[barcode]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

You should salty. Are you salty?

[Mr.C]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

There seems to be a clear divide in opinion between people who paid $20 for Seas and people who paid $200 for Seas.

[TsumiBand]

You should salty. Are you salty?

I'm not salty but I find fault in the argument and it occurs to me that *demanding* a return on this alleged "investment" is a weirdly vicious kind of entitlement. It's so beyond absurd that honestly it surprises me that it was ever dignified with an actual response. For my part I couldn't care less if I ever even own so much as a Taiga. Your salt detector went off because I can't believe anyone would say "I deserve security on my kid's game purchase" and actually mean it. Such utter horse ass.

[UseLess]

There seems to be a clear divide in opinion between people who paid $20 for Seas and people who paid $200 for Seas.

I paid around $100-150 for my blue duals and I really wish they would starting to print all legacy staples massively. I don't give a crap about the value of my cardboard. I'm trying to play legacy, not swim in a cardboard-filled vault. What I do care about is if all my friends join me to legacy tournaments because now they are willing as well to invest a much more reasonable price for their decks instead of the rediculous prices we have now.

The divide is probably more clear between people who enjoy and play the format and those who just have $$ in as eyes. If money is that important, get a proper job.

[sdematt]

Cards are expensive, I agree. Shelling out 2k is not chump change for most.

I'm in support of reprinting cards not on the reserve list, and bringing those prices down into affordability. Realistically, the duals and a few other niche cards will be, and should be, the most expensive. Forces don't need to be infinite, nor do Fetches, Wastes, Goyfs, etc.

I paid $20 for duals, and I've paid $2000 for duals. Price will be a barrier to some, even at $50 duals. If you want it, you'll pay, but it's certainly a freakin' fun format and I wouldn't be opposed to having more people in it.

[Paul7926]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

I wish to sign up for your newsletter, vote you for president and generally wave the 'TsumiBand' banner!

I thought I was alone in thinking this way. It's like insisting that Games Workshop don't create any more Space Marines because the plastic ones I bought ages ago should have their value protected and be a secure vehicle for financial investment. And yes I've paid a lot of money (for me) for out of print cardboard in the past and I can honesty say, hand on heart, that if it dropped 90% in value tonight I wouldn't care, especially if the result of that was more people able to play Legacy so that I could use that cardboard more.

[nevilshute]

Cards are expensive, I agree. Shelling out 2k is not chump change for most.

I'm in support of reprinting cards not on the reserve list, and bringing those prices down into affordability. Realistically, the duals and a few other niche cards will be, and should be, the most expensive. Forces don't need to be infinite, nor do Fetches, Wastes, Goyfs, etc.

I paid $20 for duals, and I've paid $2000 for duals. Price will be a barrier to some, even at $50 duals. If you want it, you'll pay, but it's certainly a freakin' fun format and I wouldn't be opposed to having more people in it.

Matt, while I wouldn't be against a non-reserved list reprint of say, force, waste, karakas, port etc in principle, I'd be worried about the ramifications of such a move. I mean, let's say that happens. Legacy get's more popular because whooop, you can crack force of will in boosterpacks and the price of force drops to like half of what it is. Well then more players want in to the format. However, the duals (and a few other cards like cradle, LED etc) now get even more expensive because the more non-reserved list staples get reprinted and drop in price, the more people will be looking at getting into the format, the more expensive the reserved list staples are bound to get. What will happen then? Can the format handle $5-700$ blue 3rd edition duals? Will a proper "developed/non-developed world" evolve where a large portion of players can only play with shocks and not duals. I'd imagine that's (among other things) what's keeping WotC from doing a "Legacy Masters" type release.

[Mr. Safety]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

You're the best, this post fucking rocks.

Edit: on a seriois note, I believe all playable cards in formats should be reasonably available to all players. Vintage is still a format but the rarity and value of the cards only in that format should keep collectors happy (p9, etc.) Let the rest of us play some cards.

[Ronald Deuce]

They fucking shouldn't. It's a goddamned game made of card stock. A flock of hatfuckers decided that collectible was synonymous with valuable and locked in one of the most abhorrent blights on the entire game of Magic. If you want secure investments get a motherfucking IRA, this argument fails under the weight of its absurdity - that one would expect security in the purchase of game pieces for kids 13 and older. Christ on a quiz show.

If I pay hundreds of dollars for tangible objects that don't wear out quickly and can be resold (unlike, say, lawnmower blades), I certainly would hope those items wouldn't plummet in value. And demand sets the prices of the cards; only insofar as they can manipulate the demand do collectors have any impact. There's nothing absurd about any of that.

You're right, though: an investment is an investment; a game is a game. When a game becomes an investment, that's not good for the game or the investors. Er, players. Plainvestors. Or something. Speculating on cards isn't good, either.

But I don't see anything irrational or entitled about people's hoping their stuff doesn't become valueless. Especially when the people who create the global supply absolutely can figure out whether they'll impact said objects' value by producing or not producing items.

[kirkusjones]

Two thoughts:
1.
Could they get away with timeshifting the duals at rare or mythic in another timespiral block? So you have a shot of opening a rare and a dual, but the chances are slim?

a.
Create a third un-set called "unreserved". Only reprint reserved list cards, but give them stupid names. Reprint the duals but call them things like "swampy island" and "mountainous plains", etc. give them a dash of that ol' digital art everyone seems to be so fond of, and politely ask Sheldon and the RC to make them legal in EDH. It would reduce some of the demand the from EDH crowd for the cards, Wizards makes a buttload of money off casuals, and grows the playerbase for a cashcow format. I can see the packaging now: Juzam Djinn wearing a fez and holding a bespectacled collector between two dingy fingernails. Tagline: "Unreserved: Unapologetic, Unleashed and Uncalled For."

[barcode]

Two thoughts:
1.
Could they get away with timeshifting the duals at rare or mythic in another timespiral block? So you have a shot of opening a rare and a dual, but the chances are slim?

a.
Create a third un-set called "unreserved". Only reprint reserved list cards, but give them stupid names. Reprint the duals but call them things like "swampy island" and "mountainous plains", etc. give them a dash of that ol' digital art everyone seems to be so fond of, and politely ask Sheldon and the RC to make them legal in EDH. It would reduce some of the demand the from EDH crowd for the cards, Wizards makes a buttload of money off casuals, and grows the playerbase for a cashcow format. I can see the packaging now: Juzam Djinn wearing a fez and holding a bespectacled collector between two dingy fingernails. Tagline: "Unreserved: Unapologetic, Unleashed and Uncalled For."

When they made the reserved list they said they wouldn't make functional reprints. So they can't make 1 mana blue instant that says "target player draws 3 cards" even if they call it "Brain Growth" or whatever.

A great example of functional reprints are Lightning Strike and Searing Spear. However Chain Lightning and Lava Spike are different because Lava Spike can't target creatures and can't be bounced back.

So "Swampy Island" wouldn't work because it would still be a land with types Swamp and Island with no other drawback (like the shocklands are a drawback).

ninja edit: However: they could probably get away with, U, Instant, You draw 3 cards. Or, U, Sorcery, You draw 3 cards. The problem is that now Vintage has 2 Ancestral Recall cards.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Lol so a Recall that cant be misdirected... I like it xD
Why not just make better cards? U draw 4? Island Mountain scry 1?

[Dice_Box]

Playing Modern today with a Legacy event happening tomorrow, I started asking around who was coming to Legacy. Shock and horror, someone mentions this article. "I read a really good article about Legacy" kind of made me a touch pissed. The issue was, here is someone that has never played Legacy who thinks this idea is the best thing ever, because regardless of the impacts on the format, then he could play it.

Now trying to explain that it's not all sunshine and rainbow's turned out to be hard. His argument being who could afford to play Legacy anyway and it was not until I got around to explaining that Legacy as it is right now still fires an event every week that he shut up.

We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy, but a way to get views for a site that has little market share in the shadow of SCG and Channelfireball. Because it has found a home in the minds of some but these happen to be the some that do not understand what losing Duals mean. I guess if they go on posting Modern and Standard content and get eyes on it well mission accomplished.