Necro and Rats

[Gheizen64]

In light of the new asylum visitor vampire, many people started thinking about a possible 16 confidants.dec , playing like the old necro decks.

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After trying all the pseudo confidants creature i came to a conclusion:



Just suck.

The draw on hellbent ability is the worse between all the draw abilities, and it's anti-sinergistic with your other minions. Its ability will never trigger as long as you have a confidant or blood scrivener on the battlefield, and its stats are the worst (same as confidant which however has the best ability). I've found the draw on empty hand ability way worse than even the draw on untap of scrivener.

Important is to note that scrivener ability actually work on the upkeep step, so you can use it together with the Asylum Seeker, just stack it correctly.

The biggest problem with a 12 confidant deck was:

- discard is needed but a dead draw later on and amass cards in your hand doing nothing
- liliana is a decent discard engine but dies easily and its cmc is relatively high
- your creatures have a lot of issues at actually killing your opponent

Searching for creatures with a discard trigger to solve the issue, i encountered a card i never actually played before, cause i don't follow standard all that much:

Here it is, the rat:



Discard engine, win condition, draw smoother all in one. THE RAT. Couple of iterations later, cutting moxens and lotus petals for aether vials and wastelands, i got here:


4 Aether Vial

4 Dark Confidant
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Pain Seer
4 Pack Rat

4 Dark Ritual
4 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
14 Swamp


The first draft of the deck that feel smooth to play. Pack rat is just insane. Liliana is good, but you don't want to see two of her in your first 2-3 turns. Pain Seer is surprisingly decent as it can attack into deathrite shaman. Asylum Visitor has tons of sinergy, with rats and Liliana. Disfigure is my go-to removal of choice since it can remove DRS, delvers and small eldrazis, plus it can remove bigger creatures as a combat trick, and it cost 1 which is good as it doesn't kill you on flip. 8 discard spell (thoughtseize and hymn) are pretty standard, and can get recycled later as more rats. Dark ritual can look strange together with vial, but it allow for many powerful opening and it's not as bad as a midgame draw as it can give you mana for surprise rats.

Deck is fun and play smooth. In the SB, i'd play Leylines, snuff out (tempo answer for eldrazis that don't care about chalice), vicious hunger against more aggressive delver lists , extraction, etc... For problematic permanents like Ensnaring bridge, you need to hit discard or simply die i guess. You have plenty of time to.

A possibility would be playing white, adding tidehollow sculler and SFM + equips. But i love the feeling of playing a monoblack list that just spam card advantage and small critters. A BW list would be something like -4 Seers, -4 Hymns, -4 rituals, +4 SFM, +4 Scullers, +jitte/batter/sword, +4 Thalia, which would be way more steady, but then you're just playing D&T i guess.

EDIT: i'm playing a consistently different list right now:


Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pain Seer
4 Pack Rat
4 Asylum Visitor

Removal and Discard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Mana cheating:
4 AEther Vial
4 Dark Ritual

Lands:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp

SB:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Snuff Out
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night


Ritual is just good when you draw 2 cards per turn, allowing you to play both discard and a creature T1. Inquisition went in the place of Hymn because too often i got stuck with no T1 plays, but i really want to play something on T1, so i placed more 1-drops in the deck (now 19 1-drops, 20 2-drops, 3 3-drops), and the deck curve out much more smoothly. Port got removed because you either draw cards that you want to play, or you don't draw anything and you lose port or not, the deck is much more mana hungry than D&T for example. Pack rat is what the old orders were in the old decks, cheap creatures that get much better when you have spare mana , and in the case of the rat, cards too. Jitte is in the sb because too often your opponents just remove everything you play and you can't seems to stick anything down, so this come in MUs where you think you'll be able to stick something.

[Barook]

Why not run fetches for a slight green splash for DRS?

[Gheizen64]

Why not run fetches for a slight green splash for DRS?

Cause i tested monoblack first and foremost and started with the old necro lists as a basis, trying dark ritual, sinkhole and hymns. You're correct in that nowadays DRS is probably just better than dark ritual and while slightly slower it allow the decks to win under bridges, give more consistent mana over turns, and hate grave strategy all in one card. So it's probably worth running as it also add power to vial even if you don't run any green splash. Maybe a single bayou to be fetchable with the ability.

[Philipp2293]

DRS was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the original list. The question is how far you want to take the splash, as Disfigure seems so much lower powered compared to Abrupt Decay. Also, no love for Big Game Hunter?

[Gheizen64]

DRS was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the original list. The question is how far you want to take the splash, as Disfigure seems so much lower powered compared to Abrupt Decay. Also, no love for Big Game Hunter?

When you run only 14 colored lands AD seems a bit more riskier, and being slower don't help either, but i guess it's a better card, allright.

BGH looks like a SB card mostly.

Something like this i guess:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Aether Vial

1 Forest
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan port


I can't help but think that it's becoming a very different deck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Old Necro decks played Ivory Tower and Drain Life. You could find something similar. What about Jitte? Is there any chance and reason to include it? I understand that you're aiming for a super fast and brutal deck, but I'm afraid that you might be losing life too fast especially against particular sort of decks/draws.
Also, Jitte is a removal (sort of) and not exactly slow with DRit, moreover it may speed up your clock when worn by the (otherwise crappy) 2/1s and 2/2s that form the most of your deck.
I know that a singleton Jitte (instead of 3rd Lili?) sucks and that in more numbers it also sucks (except for feeding the rats), but you really might find yourself needing some more life.
Also, Jitte was in that Kamigawa's Get Rekt Ratcon pile; thus you need to play it alongside rats.

No matter what, nice concept.

Cheers, Rat Decks Palyer

[Gheizen64]

Old Necro decks played Ivory Tower and Drain Life. You could find something similar. What about Jitte? Is there any chance and reason to include it? I understand that you're aiming for a super fast and brutal deck, but I'm afraid that you might be losing life too fast especially against particular sort of decks/draws.
Also, Jitte is a removal (sort of) and not exactly slow with DRit, moreover it may speed up your clock when worn by the (otherwise crappy) 2/1s and 2/2s that form the most of your deck.
I know that a singleton Jitte (instead of 3rd Lili?) sucks and that in more numbers it also sucks (except for feeding the rats), but you really might find yourself needing some more life.
Also, Jitte was in that Kamigawa's Get Rekt Ratcon pile; thus you need to play it alongside rats.

No matter what, nice concept.

Cheers, Rat Decks Palyer

DRS is also lifegain tbh. I tested quite a bit but i like, NEVER draw rats in 4 games. Like i drew it only once wtf.

That aside, mass card advantage + removal and other things worked on its own without the need for rats in said games. Too bad cause rats were amazing in my solo testing. Rat + Vial and 3 mana open made for surprise 9 power on the board on untap and 6 ready to attack.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

DRS is also lifegain tbh.

Yep, I was thinking about the monoblack version without DRS, though. I'm not sure if you would play DRS without fetches and/or color splash.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I think that this deck is all about getting hellbent asap and the best card to get hellbent is LED.
With LED and SDT, Blood Scrivener becomes a lot better.
Here 's what I would play:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Blood Scrivener
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gamble

1 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

[Dark Ritual]

I think that this deck is all about getting hellbent asap and the best card to get hellbent is LED.
With LED and SDT, Blood Scrivener becomes a lot better.
Here 's what I would play:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Asylum Visitor
4 Blood Scrivener
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gamble

1 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

LED in this deck is going to be one with nothing a large percentage of the time. There's no point to dumping your hand in order to draw 'extra' cards each turn. You could replace it with lotus petal and it would likely be better as petal in a fair deck used to accel out your hand will get you hellbent fast too. The rare times you get to flip top with LED cracked for mana is cute but the curve is extra low/you can't really abuse the interaction that well.

[Smea.gol.lum]

LED in this deck is going to be one with nothing a large percentage of the time. There's no point to dumping your hand in order to draw 'extra' cards each turn. You could replace it with lotus petal and it would likely be better as petal in a fair deck used to accel out your hand will get you hellbent fast too. The rare times you get to flip top with LED cracked for mana is cute but the curve is extra low/you can't really abuse the interaction that well.

4 Asylum Visitors, 4 Gamble into Asylum Visitor and 3 SDT are 11 cards for the mana from LED. All in all you are probably right though and the home for LED is rather a deck with Vengevine, Basking Rootwalla, Asylum Visitor, Fauna Shaman, Cabal Therapy, Quirion Ranger and Bloodghast.

[Gheizen64]

Some thoughts after a bit of playing the list:

- port isn't as good here as it is in D&T. Mana is much thigher, with rats, and especially card draw, you always have things you wanna cast or mana u wanna use for discard. As such, i'd rather cut it and play 1-2 more normal lands.
- i had dark ritual cut for DRS, but i always find myself stranded on mana and plays early on, especially T1 where you have only vial, thoughtseize and DRS as plays. DR -> 1 mana discard into 2 mana confidant variant is such a strong play.
- following from previous point, hymn is a 2-mana spell of which i feel like i have too many, and also double black which sometimes is annoying if you play wastelands. I'm trying inquisition of kozilek in its place.
- i almost never sideboard anything in. I feel like nothing is actually repleacable.

EDIT: playing

4 Dark Ritual 4 DRS 4 Thoughtseize 3 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Aether Vial

I have 19 1-drops, ensuring you always do something T1.
Then you have

4 AD 4 Confidant 4 Pain Seer 4 Asylum Seeker 4 Pack Rats 3 LotV

20 2-drops and 3 3-drops, curving out pretty smoothly. 18 lands feel fine with said curve. Without ritual i played more lands and too often i did nothing T1 which is not acceptable in today's legacy imho.

[rufus]

...

After trying all the pseudo confidants creature i came to a conclusion:

[Blood Scrivener]

Just suck.

...

I think Scrivener is better in decks with full hand turnover stuff going on - more churn and less grind.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I think Scrivener is better in decks with full hand turnover stuff going on - more churn and less grind.

Avatar of Discord. Man up, let's see it!


Avatar + Scrivener + ghasts + Unmask + Bolts. Hey man, I'd YOLO the fuck outta that deck to victory >.>

[Ricardio]

How has no one suggested this: Training ground and life from the loam in a bug pack rat deck?????

[Mystical_Jackass]

How has no one suggested this: Training ground and life from the loam in a bug pack rat deck?????

The problem with that is that Training Grounds is pretty bad on its own, it seems better suited in some kind of Gilder Bairn = "I win" combo deck than just a Monatery Mentor'ish enabler. But assuming you'd try this, you'd need a way of putting lands in the yard so you can get value, maybe a Seismic Assault shell with cyclers and Crusher and Urborg. It still sounds kind of bad, albeit playing a Pack Rat and dropping 4 copies at the end of their turn and then swinging in does sound hilarious. Only issue is, why not just use Seismic then?

[Gheizen64]

Avatar of Discord. Man up, let's see it!


Avatar + Scrivener + ghasts + Unmask + Bolts. Hey man, I'd YOLO the fuck outta that deck to victory >.>

If Avatar of discord actually had 4 thoughness i'd have considered it. But as it is it dies to everything, from bolt to decay with stp in the middle and delver on the side.

I have sorta dropped this deck lately, i'm waiting for SoI to actually come out so i can properly test it with the Asylum Visitors. I've also been playing 3 Scavenging Ooze main as a beater that trump every other beater (goyf and kotr are smaller on empty graveyards and angler can't get casted if you exile cards often enough) and as a way to gain some life, but i'm feeling like i'm just moving away from the concept of good old necro aggro decks which i liked in the first place and going toward simply Abzan good stuff or the rock or whatever you call it. Which is a fine deck but i didn't want to play that!

[Ricardio]

The problem with that is that Training Grounds is pretty bad on its own, it seems better suited in some kind of Gilder Bairn = "I win" combo deck than just a Monatery Mentor'ish enabler. But assuming you'd try this, you'd need a way of putting lands in the yard so you can get value, maybe a Seismic Assault shell with cyclers and Crusher and Urborg. It still sounds kind of bad, albeit playing a Pack Rat and dropping 4 copies at the end of their turn and then swinging in does sound hilarious. Only issue is, why not just use Seismic then?

this would be a one or two of TG. You want to make your pack rats infinite. This is not mentor, this is pack rat. Go back to the miracles thread with that attitude. As for getting lands into the graveyard, wasteland and fetches do the job just fine. We could even play exploration and depth/stage. This would be like an adaptation of BUG Depths but going wide and not all in on the marit plan.

[Mystical_Jackass]

If Avatar of discord actually had 4 thoughness i'd have considered it. But as it is it dies to everything, from bolt to decay with stp in the middle and delver on the side.

I have sorta dropped this deck lately, i'm waiting for SoI to actually come out so i can properly test it with the Asylum Visitors. I've also been playing 3 Scavenging Ooze main as a beater that trump every other beater (goyf and kotr are smaller on empty graveyards and angler can't get casted if you exile cards often enough) and as a way to gain some life, but i'm feeling like i'm just moving away from the concept of good old necro aggro decks which i liked in the first place and going toward simply Abzan good stuff or the rock or whatever you call it. Which is a fine deck but i didn't want to play that!

Fair enough. One advantage that I was thinking about using Scrivener though was that since it's a zombie, it'd actually have pretty excellent synergy with Gravecrawler and Bloodghast in a hellbent kind of deck with things like smallpox and friends. Just a thought.

this would be a one or two of TG. You want to make your pack rats infinite. This is not mentor, this is pack rat. Go back to the miracles thread with that attitude. As for getting lands into the graveyard, wasteland and fetches do the job just fine. We could even play exploration and depth/stage. This would be like an adaptation of BUG Depths but going wide and not all in on the marit plan.

Cool, that's great... what does any of that have to do with the op's original list or this thread? Yeah, nothing. Maybe you should be the one to leave this thread and post there then? Btw I wasn't giving you any attitude originally, that honestly was my feedback, it doesn't seem that good 'cause you're throwing in a card that only goes with 4 cards in the deck and doesn't win you the game immediately-- painter & grindstone for instance, you find them and you win-- Training grounds + Rat even if you find the pieces it's not even a guaranteed win, bam echoing truth you lose, if it enabled something similar to a kiki+pestermite kind of combo where you could win the turn-of it'd be stronger. But don't let me hold you back, go pitch the idea in the Dark Depths thread and see what they say.

[Ricardio]

Fair enough. One advantage that I was thinking about using Scrivener though was that since it's a zombie, it'd actually have pretty excellent synergy with Gravecrawler and Bloodghast in a hellbent kind of deck with things like smallpox and friends. Just a thought.



Cool, that's great... what does any of that have to do with the op's original list or this thread? Yeah, nothing. Maybe you should be the one to leave this thread and post there then? Btw I wasn't giving you any attitude originally, that honestly was my feedback, it doesn't seem that good 'cause you're throwing in a card that only goes with 4 cards in the deck and doesn't win you the game immediately-- painter & grindstone for instance, you find them and you win-- Training grounds + Rat even if you find the pieces it's not even a guaranteed win, bam echoing truth you lose, if it enabled something similar to a kiki+pestermite kind of combo where you could win the turn-of it'd be stronger. But don't let me hold you back, go pitch the idea in the Dark Depths thread and see what they say.

haha, you misunderstood my jest. I am referring to decks and shells that would fit in. if we go all in on the pack rat as fast as possible, then TG is where we wanna be but we need to find synergy to fill around it. I saw his initial list and I know how developmental decks work. at this moment, we are throwing ideas at a pack rat covered wall and hoping they like one of the ones that stick. I don't assume to know all the answer, I just like creating questions.