[Article] How to kill Miracles - Part 2

[TheArchitect]

If Miracles is such a menace, then isn't it worth running a card that is ONLY good against miracles?

You see people playing 3-4 leyline of the void or RIP that are only useful against 15-20% of the meta but people can't be bothered to play cards like null rod or winter orb (which are also good against 15-20% of the meta). There is is this strange mentality that every matchup NEEDS to have a few have SB cards to help beat it. Like Maverick and 4c Loam are awesome against GY decks, but people still insist on playing additional GY hate the SB, over playing cards that COULD swing the miracles matchup in there favor.

If miracles is such a monster you might have to play 5 specific cards in your SB to fight it. Will you lose % to win against other decks? Yes! But overall it might be worth it to make your miracles matchup better.

This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

PW are good against miracles, especially ones that poop out tokens like Garruk or Gideon.

[CptHaddock]

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

Aggro loam is probably another one. It seems pretty mediocre against everything else unless you can mana deny like some of RUG delver's hands.

@Einherjer

I think this article is better than the previous but I think that the complaints that people had with your writing style and the actual content of the article are still really apparent. I think Finn pointed them out in the last thread. It feels like you do the same thing in this article.

Einherjer, I don't recall if I gave you a hard time on your last article, but you need an editor, dude. You know your stuff, but the article is hard to read to the point that I can't even form opinions on the merits of the ideas you cover.

examples:
1. You are telling us not to FoW Top. That sounds very strange to me, and probably to a lot of people, though you may very well be correct. You apparently knew this would be news since we all know how critical the Top is to the success of that deck. Given how provocative a position that is, you really need more than the pittance of reasoning you supplied to back up that claim. And then you go on to give us paragraphs on the exceptions. This design makes it hard to figure out what message you are sending to the point that I am not even sure if I believe you.

2. You are telling us that Miracles is two decks in one, or some such. I don't really see any description of this. If there is any, it is not at all sufficient to balance the amount of words you spend telling us that this is so. I kept looking for the part that ties this again, provocative claim, only to be disappointed that the article ended with this remaining only a claim.

3. You are telling us that Miracles uses its cantrips as more than "filler". Honestly, I can make that argument for probably every cantripping deck in the format. If you mean that Brainstorm sets up miraculous draws, we got that. Is there more to this position? Once again, you highlight this provocative claim and don't deliver on the evidence. It's like reading Donald Trump on Magic theory.

4. There are other examples. The entire article is like this...

Great ideas. Terrible execution. I got to the end and I felt as if I got an hors d'oeuvre, but then no meal. (Saving it for part 2 is not good enough since you have a conclusion when none can be drawn.) All of my articles got edited. They all needed it too. Every professional writer is dependent upon an editor. All of them. Just get a friend to help you with this; someone with some literary chops.

[btm10]

What other match ups would you bring in winter orb? Lands, miracles, ? Mediocre against 12 post I'd think. This is why I like Ajani in my maverick deck right now.

It's good against any deck that wants to spend its mana every turn: Shardless, Loam, Lands, and Miracles are the ones that come to mind.

You see people playing 3-4 leyline of the void or RIP that are only useful against 15-20% of the meta but people can't be bothered to play cards like null rod or winter orb (which are also good against 15-20% of the meta). There is is this strange mentality that every matchup NEEDS to have a few have SB cards to help beat it. Like Maverick and 4c Loam are awesome against GY decks, but people still insist on playing additional GY hate the SB, over playing cards that COULD swing the miracles matchup in there favor.

This hasn't been my experience with Loam (I can't speak to Maverick). Maybe if you're maindecking a Bojuka Bog it's better, but without the Bog your only G1 interaction against graveyard decks are two one-ofs (one of which is held up by summoning sickness and the other effectively costs 3) that you can find with GSZ, which is usually a 2-of.

EDIT: I think someone else said this, but all of these cards have been mentioned in the past: I know our Team America group from Cleveland was packing Negates, Creeping Tar Pit, Zur's Weirding, Needle, Null Rod, and Sylvan Library for the Miracles matchup shortly before Khans was printed and we had a lot of success with that approach. I know that Winter Orb was also discussed in several Delver decks around the same time.

[TheArchitect]

This hasn't been my experience with Loam (I can't speak to Maverick). Maybe if you're maindecking a Bojuka Bog it's better, but without the Bog your only G1 interaction against graveyard decks are two one-ofs (one of which is held up by summoning sickness and the other effectively costs 3) that you can find with GSZ, which is usually a 2-of.

My point was that its not even the actual GY hate that's needed. Between, knight, Karakas, Waste, Lily, swords, Chalice AND ooze/deathrite, those decks already have a lot of ways to fight through something like dredge, lands or reanimator. You don't need to reach some set number of "GY hate cards" to beat "GY decks".


The GY hate example is the most black and white example, but its the same as adding 3 disfigures and a golgari charm to a SB of a deck with 4 decay, X deluge, 4 strix and 3 lilys in the maindeck. Will it make you creature matchups better? Sure. Will it make them significantly better? Probably not. But playing garruk relentless, 2 needles and library would be high impact in your miracles matchup.

*Playing 1 bog is pretty reasonable though. I just cringe every time I see 2 RIP in maverick.

[Lemnear]

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.

Take a closer look here. Its a difference between "there ARE answers" and (what I implied) "the whole deck is full of answers", with the later being something I consider a mayor flaw for SB techs. You need to attack from angles your opponent isn't covering fully already.

Winter orb has one big problem that you even mentioned: Not all decks can play it. Delver can and most likely should. Imagine what would happen if people did what they do in other formats all the time - adjust to the top decks and meta. People have played delver now, what, 3-4 years without orbs or anything and crying how miracles is so difficult to beat.

I am totally with you here on "people have to adjust their deck before whinning". Mind that Orb has to prove itself first being an insurmountable hate for Miracles vs. Tempo, but Tempo/Delver aside, the angles to fight Miracles back aren't that great and only Decay has made a lasting impact which made us end up with AD as the gold standard of removal in Legacy. If you consider that statistic an indicator of a problem itself, is up to you.

Now when a premium sideboard tech is gaining ground, you drop in to say pretty much that it dies to removal. I don't understand your motives. Not sure if you want to contribute to pushing miracles to mortal status or keep up with the "bitching until something is banned because no tech can escape Council's judgement " stance.

I take it as a compliment that you can't put me in a box, because I AM in neither camp as the topic is stupid to look at like it being black/white. I analyze the topic for the last two years and there are no easy solutions to Miracles as a deck which would boil down to "run card x and you have suddenly an even/favorable matchup". Pointing to Orb as the Hail Mary is as flawed as past attempts to ascend Teeg to that status for the same reasons: You have to a) get it into play, b) keep it in play and c) it needs to wreck Miracles fundamental gameplan. While Orb gets a nod from me in terms of c), the points a) & b) are highly questionable. Its not that we consider Pyroblast an anti-Countertop tech either, no?

I am a sceptical person when it comes to hypes for new cards/techs and I want to look at techs from all sides and not just perfect scenarios. Thats all. Orb has not proven to be "premium"

You are likely witty and all but it's difficult to tell if you have a constructive point there somewhere or do you just love your own naysaying voice, so to say.

As pointed out, its not "naysaying", its "adressing potential issues to get a more complete picture". I hate it if obvious weaknesses (like Orb being symmetric, Miracles running removal/counter anyways and it getting stuck in Counterbalance easy) are sweept under the rug just to keep dreaming of how good it is as an unresisted Turn 2 play after a turn 1 Delver. Its an dishonest discussion in that case.

The point is about RUG is that you shouldn't approach your sideboard to say, you have X removal, Y Grave hate, Z whatever else there's no room for winter orb because the internet says this is how to build a sideboard! This thinking process is exactly why people who simply copy and paste decks fail and wonder why so often.

This. Critical thinking is rare these days, no matter if its about evaluating SB cards or analyzing the meta

for non U players, the prevalence of Wear-Tear ia a push to stop playing Enchants, as while sylvan library, bitterblossom or choke are good cards, getting 2 for one'd by W/T is no fun and null rod & pithing are too good to eschew

Thats part of my argument, pointing at the questionable idea of fighting with 2-3 sideboard 1cc/2cc artifacts/enchantments against CounterTop + 3 W/T + Snapcasters and more.

If more PWs pop up to deal with Miracles, I expect them to simply play more Council's Judgment. Playable walkers are in the 3-4 mana range, so they have all the time in the world to set it up.

I also agree with previous posters that running a combination of enchantments and artifacts against them is no bueno because Wear/Tear 2-for-1s you.

Correct. Thats the whole issue in a nutshell: Miracles as efficient answers to every damn angle of attack and the answers are often cheaper than the threats

[iatee]

If you run a deck that is fundamentally soft to Miracles (e.g. most Delver variants, Elves), then you can't expect to suddenly have a 50%+ matchup by tossing in a few sideboard cards. You can push up your EW % with those cards, and you can win many matches. But you shouldn't expect to make the matchup 50%+ unless you wreck your sideboard for it...and that's to be expected, that's how all it is for most decks with bad matchups. The decks that aren't fundamentally soft to Miracles can have very strong Miracles matchups with a few sideboard cards.

If you want to beat them consistently, play more haymaker sideboard cards than they have answers. If you want to beat them sometimes, play a few and sometimes you'll get there. Or just don't play a deck that's soft to Miracles...

[Julian23]

Or just don't play a deck that's soft to Miracles...

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format

[CabalTherapy]

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format

Kind of true but the amount of Needles in SBs is too low.

[iatee]

There are lots of decks that aren't naturally soft to the best and most played deck in the format. It sucks if your favorite deck happens to be soft to it, but you can't let your attachment to a pet deck determine whether something needs to be banned / whether the format is broken.

[marax]

I think it is interesting that Winter Orb is discussed as the new awesome tech when it was already used to reach Top 8 in 2013 at GP Strassbourg (as a 2 of). I distinctly remember testing the card before the event and it was great vs. Miracles, Stoneblade and other mana intensive decks. And the card was found in other people's SBs on deck list sites - lots of people had that idea back then. The big problem is that Needle and co. are just too bad against the field to be worth it in big numbers to beat the ~10-15% of Miracles. It just seems to not pay of to cut FLusterstorm and likewise cards to improve Miracles becuase you lose too much in Delver mirrors and vs. combo.


I also think you are missing the most important way to improve the Miracles MU. Avoid the MU altogether by never ever drawing. If you have a really bad Miracles MU and you would get your first draw with 10 rounds to go it's probably best to scoop instead

[Megadeus]

Again, yes there are permanent based answers that are good, but miracles has now adapted wear tear to the board as well as some number of councils judgement, plus mentor. It used to be that sticking a walker was very very good against them. It's still solid, but they have a creature that goes wide very quickly to pressure your walker or they simply have judgement as an answer. Choke used to be my go to. Now every time I cast choke they seem to easily wear tear it. Hence why decks like lands now have adopted Boseju and Boil. It's just that like someone said in this thread or another (barook, lemnear or Julian I believe), miracles has the best mana base, the best card filtering, the best removal, and the best counter suite. I would go as far to say the second, maybe actual best, best card advantage engine in CB or Jace. Mentor is also arguably one of the best creatures in the format. They deck is very very difficult to straight up hate out because of these reasons. At least if something like storm or show and tell were the "oppressors" we could play leylines and banishing lights or something.

[Fox]

"it's bad because there are answers to it" is below the level of what I expect from these kind of conversations.

So as far as Delver goes, they're bringing in W//T. This is known b/c the only card left in their decks they can hope to resolve are 4 copies of FoW and a 1-2x Delve critter once you find it with CB/SDT. The issue is more that you know the answer is coming in post-board, and they see way more cards than you (there's not a huge difference between looks you got with DTT vs SDT and 2x Fetchlands). The statistical odds of finding the SB cards are stacked massively in their favor. "Maybe they won't have it" mentality doesn't exactly challenge people to be better players of the game.

If they resolve that CB, you just got Strip Mine'd off all lands and the only 'lands' left in your deck are called Abrupt Decay...so uh, hope you topdeck it without card filtering and whatever you had on board. To continue the metaphor, you can play 'manaless' with the uncounterable clauses of Caverns/Boseju...but that's the threat level of CB/SDT lock. It's actually quite critical that your SB card works and doesn't run into answers, 'cause it's not like you get a chance to recover. It's like bringing in Gaddock Teeg to beat Terminus...he's getting hit by StP or will die the moment you attack. Now sure Miracles will die to Teeg on rare occasions, but I'd probably file that one under 'I got a win for making poor choices; sometimes you get lucky I guess.'

It's not so much 'dies to removal' as much as doing something like bringing in GY-based answers in vs a Leyline/Helm deck. Some things are bad ideas from the start; sometimes it works, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

[Megadeus]

So as far as Delver goes, they're bringing in W//T. This is known b/c the only card left in their decks they can hope to resolve are 4 copies of FoW and a 1-2x Delve critter once you find it with CB/SDT. The issue is more that you know the answer is coming in post-board, and they see way more cards than you (there's not a huge difference between looks you got with DTT vs SDT and 2x Fetchlands). The statistical odds of finding the SB cards are stacked massively in their favor. "Maybe they won't have it" mentality doesn't exactly challenge people to be better players of the game.

If they resolve that CB, you just got Strip Mine'd off all lands and the only 'lands' left in your deck are called Abrupt Decay...so uh, hope you topdeck it without card filtering and whatever you had on board. To continue the metaphor, you can play 'manaless' with the uncounterable clauses of Caverns/Boseju...but that's the threat level of CB/SDT lock. It's actually quite critical that your SB card works and doesn't run into answers, 'cause it's not like you get a chance to recover. It's like bringing in Gaddock Teeg to beat Terminus...he's getting hit by StP or will die the moment you attack. Now sure Miracles will die to Teeg on rare occasions, but I'd probably file that one under 'I got a win for making poor choices; sometimes you get lucky I guess.'

It's not so much 'dies to removal' as much as doing something like bringing in GY-based answers in vs a Leyline/Helm deck. Some things are bad ideas from the start; sometimes it works, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Pretty much this. It's really hard to resolve mom, keep her active, and resolve teeg. At least in my experience. Maybe just small sample sizes, but usually my mom gets stp'd, then teeg comes down and just waits for their infinite filtering to find another swords, snapcaster for swords, or councils judgement

[Stevestamopz]

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format

But isn't that true of any deck and the top decks in the format?

Why can't I play Goblins competitively anymore?

Can't beat Show and Derp decks;
Can't beat "value" Deathrite Shaman decks;
Can't beat Storm decks;
Can't beat True Name Nemesis + Equipment;
Can't beat Death and Taxes;

aka, the whole format minus Miracles.

[ESG]

- On your last comment, that "there are no decks that could run Chalice of the Void that do not do so already." is not that true. I started to run a couple of copies in elf SB and am quite satisfied by it. I really believe more decks should think about it.

This has to be the most convincing evidence presented of Miracles' domination: Elves sideboarding Chalice of the Void. 20-plus cards locked out on both sides. Sure, why not?

[Megadeus]

But isn't that true of any deck and the top decks in the format?

Why can't I play Goblins competitively anymore?

Can't beat Show and Derp decks;
Can't beat "value" Deathrite Shaman decks;
Can't beat Storm decks;
Can't beat True Name Nemesis + Equipment;
Can't beat Death and Taxes;

aka, the whole format minus Miracles.

This post pretty much sums up much of why legacy is getting to be so boring. Terminus derp. Show and tell griselderp. True Name with a Jitte suck my ass. Oh look here's a 1 mana mana dork that can drain you and is an X/2. Get fucked. Even eldrazi is pretty miserable to play against. Here's a pile of under costed beat sticks that are very tough to remove. As someone who generally has loved legacy for 4 years, it's gotten to the point where every deck has mostly uninteresting things. It's really weird when I feel like storm provides me with the most interesting matches some days

[Scott]

This post pretty much sums up much of why legacy is getting to be so boring. Terminus derp. Show and tell griselderp. True Name with a Jitte suck my ass. Oh look here's a 1 mana mana dork that can drain you and is an X/2. Get fucked. Even eldrazi is pretty miserable to play against. Here's a pile of under costed beat sticks that are very tough to remove. As someone who generally has loved legacy for 4 years, it's gotten to the point where every deck has mostly uninteresting things. It's really weird when I feel like storm provides me with the most interesting matches some days

On the bright side, a lot of Elves decks have shed Hoofderp, and are back to the height of cool.

Edit: It's more accurate to say that they've shed NOderp.

[MorphBerlin]

When I read Joe's tweets and Philipp's articles about how to hurt Miracles, I feel like right now they're answering questions that were asked two years ago.

Sometimes I ask myself if these dedicated Miracles playets ever sat down at the other side of the table and test their "solutions" and how miserable they can play out.

[Quasim0ff]

Which sadly has become the general motto of the format

How about playing a well-tuned shardless list, a bug delver deck with a good sideboard approach, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show?

You are playing a creature combo deck. Miracles plays sweepers, swords and snapcasters. What do you expect?

[TracerBullet]

How about playing a well-tuned shardless list, a bug delver deck with a good sideboard approach, Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show?

You are playing a creature combo deck. Miracles plays sweepers, swords and snapcasters. What do you expect?

You're right. It's his fault for wearing really sexy clothes.



The repeated attempts to rationalize why the rest of the metagame has lost to miracles for the last two! plus years actually make me laugh. If your argument is that people need to SB more for the vastly overperforming 18% of the metagame, doesn't that lead to the conclusion that miracles is a format-warping deck and needs correction? Have we ever gotten to a two plus year metagame where the problem was somehow (incredibly) that people just plain hadn't caught on and needed to sideboard more against the best deck in the format? Do miracles players really think that everyone else is that stupid?

If the argument is "the roughly 4-6 sb slots you're dedicating to beating my deck isn't enough", doesn't that speak to the fact that your deck is too good? That if every other deck is expected to devote more than half their sb to making this one matchup slightly better than 50/50, maybe you're actually the problem?