Thalia Stompy

[Cire]

Alright, I wanted to address a couple points:
1. I am not a fan of Prelate in the deck. While the effect is absolutely sick and I love the card, it is sub-optimal for 2 reasons:
a. We already can run out chalice early
b. WW can be incredibly difficult. For anyone who has not read it, Frank Karsten has a fantastic article on mana sources. Here is the link for reference http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/. It goes on to effectively say that in order for us to cast Prelate on 2 (which I assume is what we want to be doing), we need 20 white sources in the deck. On top of that, it doesn't benefit from any of our sol lands. Anyway, it is a 3-mana, 2-power creature.

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play. Even in D&T, it's a turn 3 play. The only decks that can potentially make it a turn 2 play regularly is Green and Taxes and maverick builds. Turn 2 is for Thalia 2.0, Thought-Knot and Golem. Prelate isn't supposed to be chalice 5-8, its just another lock piece. Turn 3 if you don't have chalice out you cast it for 1 to protect your Thalia's and against STP, or at 6 to protect against Terminus. If you don't fear either or already hae STP out you cast it for 2 to punish the lands player or just provide additional lock preasure against other decks (for example 3 against D&T, or 2 for decks that think they can use abrupt decay as an out).

But that article is interesting in figuring out how many sources we need to cast thoughtknot and golem turn 2. For example take thought-knot. According to the article if we want to cast Thought-knot turn 2 consistently (90% according to the article) we would need 20 sources of 2 mana (including mox diamond). Obviously we won't have this. . .

Now this isn't that much of a problem because we usually can play something else. Lets look at it this way:

We aren't playing Plains tap 1 CMC card turn 1. In fact unless we have a mox diamond our first land should always be a 2 mana land.

Turn 1 we only have a couple plays with that.

Turn 1 (without mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte (This should happen 60% of the time since we only have 40% of getting diamond in the hand)

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0/2.0

Turn 2, if we're in the 60% scenario of no diamond in starting hand we are either trying to cast another Sol land to go up to our 4 CMC threats or trying to cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer. If we don't cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer turn 2, in this scenrio then Prelate is a turn 4 play - not a turn 3 play, since we would have played only 2 sol lands so far. However, if we're in the 40% scenrio of mox diamond in starting hand, then Prelate is a turn 2 play!

I don't know what I'm arguing really except that:

• The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
• We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
• Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

[ZEROorDIE]

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play. Even in D&T, it's a turn 3 play. The only decks that can potentially make it a turn 2 play regularly is Green and Taxes and maverick builds. Turn 2 is for Thalia 2.0, Thought-Knot and Golem. Prelate isn't supposed to be chalice 5-8, its just another lock piece. Turn 3 if you don't have chalice out you cast it for 1 to protect your Thalia's and against STP, or at 6 to protect against Terminus. If you don't fear either or already hae STP out you cast it for 2 to punish the lands player or just provide additional lock preasure against other decks (for example 3 against D&T, or 2 for decks that think they can use abrupt decay as an out).

But that article is interesting in figuring out how many sources we need to cast thoughtknot and golem turn 2. For example take thought-knot. According to the article if we want to cast Thought-knot turn 2 consistently (90% according to the article) we would need 20 sources of 2 mana (including mox diamond). Obviously we won't have this. . .

Now this isn't that much of a problem because we usually can play something else. Lets look at it this way:

We aren't playing Plains tap 1 CMC card turn 1. In fact unless we have a mox diamond our first land should always be a 2 mana land.

Turn 1 we only have a couple plays with that.

Turn 1 (without mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte (This should happen 60% of the time since we only have 40% of getting diamond in the hand)

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0

Turn 1 (with Mox diamond in hand):
Sol Land + Mox Diamond (land) --> Revoker/Chalice/Jitte OR Thalia 1.0/2.0

Turn 2, if we're in the 60% scenario of no diamond in starting hand we are either trying to cast another Sol land to go up to our 4 CMC threats or trying to cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer. If we don't cast Thalia 2.0 or Displacer turn 2, in this scenrio then Prelate is a turn 4 play - not a turn 3 play, since we would have played only 2 sol lands so far. However, if we're in the 40% scenrio of mox diamond in starting hand, then Prelate is a turn 2 play!

I don't know what I'm arguing really except that:

• The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
• We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
• Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

let's not forget, if you are playing your lock/tax pieces correctly, you will be time walking your opponent for the first 1-3 turns of the game. prelate may not be the fastest down, but the effect, coupled with the fact that it needs to be attacked far differently from chalice, is huge.

very much depends on how you intend to build the deck. more prison or more toolbox.

also, I typically find revoker to be a sub par turn 1 play against most decks. shutting down death rite, mom or SDT is fine, but you need to already have that information.

[Cire]

let's not forget, if you are playing your lock/tax pieces correctly, you will be time walking your opponent for the first 1-3 turns of the game. prelate may not be the fastest down, but the effect, coupled with the fact that it needs to be attacked far differently from chalice, is huge.

very much depends on how you intend to build the deck. more prison or more toolbox.

also, I typically find revoker to be a sub par turn 1 play against most decks. shutting down death rite, mom or SDT is fine, but you need to already have that information.

Yes - but I think this deck leans more prison than toolbox. Seems D&T is going toolbox, while this mix of Eldrazi Stompy and D&T is more prison.

And yeah - playing Revoker is more of a turn 1 play game 2-3, but I think my point was that 60% of the time we won't have a turn 1 play (due to our curve and lack of Mox diamond) so between board and MD we should make sure that we have a turn 1 play game 2-3 even if we don't have the mox opening hand.

[sadface]

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself: other colored stompy decks (notably blue and red variants) play Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Why is Mox Diamond better in white stompy? Because the deck is trying to play a slightly longer and grindier game with Crucible shenanigans?

[Cire]

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself: other colored stompy decks (notably blue and red variants) play Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Why is Mox Diamond better in white stompy? Because the deck is trying to play a slightly longer and grindier game with Crucible shenanigans?

Nothing that complex, its just that we run 24-26 lands we can discard to Mox Diamond but only around 14-18 cards that we can discard to Chrome Mox

[square_two]

Perhaps a dumb question, but I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself: other colored stompy decks (notably blue and red variants) play Chrome Mox over Mox Diamond. Why is Mox Diamond better in white stompy? Because the deck is trying to play a slightly longer and grindier game with Crucible shenanigans?

Thought-Knot and Displacer are both colorless and won't help fuel Chrome Mox. It's the biggest reason. Having Crucible is another.

Dragon Stompy in particular is much better with Chrome Moxes thanks to them having both a red lock piece (Blood Moon + Magus to pitch if there are multiples) but also red acceleration (Simian Spirit Guide). Green can probably pitch Sylvan Library easily if there is redundancy. Blue has, well...Misthollow Griffin lol that you can play once you don't need the mana? Heh.

[DisgruntledElk]

Prelate is a turn 3 play not a turn 2 play.

• The total of Revoker+Chalice+Jitte should probably be 9 to allow us to have a turn 1 play always
• We need more 2 mana sources than we currently run for statistics - so we should probably up the COT count from 2 to 3 or more propably 4; and,
• Prelate is to good not to run. Basically it is a turn 2 play around 40% of the time and the other 60% of the time it is either a turn 3 or 4 play depending on whether we played a Thalia 2.0 or displacer turn 2 instead of a Golem or Thought-knot. Prelate is a meta-warping card. It's just ridiculous.

I think you may have misread my arguments as well as decklists I posted earlier, so I'll address it point by point:

1. In regards to not casting turn 2 TKS: I have been on 4 City for a while. In addition, it is most often a turn 3 play which is still excellent, as we are playing lock pieces turn 1/2.

2. I run 2 revoker, 4 chalice, 1 jitte, plus 2 warping wail/1 dismember as turn 1 plays off of a sol land. This is another reason I've been on 4 cities. For what it's worth, I don't think running 4 mox diamonds is correct. It will too often be a 2-of in your opener, meaning you're already mulled to 6. I think either 3 mox diamond or 2 diamond/1 lotus petal is more likely correct.

3. In agreeance here. 4 is most definitely the correct number.

4. Like I said in my last post, I'm not arguing that Prelate is bad. That's why I will be running it in my DnT. That said, even if I look at your list and count ever cavern as a white source for human (which it isn't, since sometimes you will want an uncounterable TKS or Lodestone), AND I count all four of your Mox Diamonds as white sources (which when you have that many, will sometimes be dead cards), you only have 14 white sources. If you look at the math, that is enough for a reliable WW on turn 7. You need at least 18 white sources in order to cast it on turn 4, as you say you're good with.

Once again, I am not arguing against prelate in a vacuum. I am arguing against Prelate in a deck that is also trying to run 11-12 sol lands, as well as wasteland. Casting it is simply unreliable, and in a deck that is already somewhat high-variance, we should be working to minimize the uncastable cards, not maximize them by running 2-4 WW spells.

Is Prelate very good? Absolutely. Is it meta-warping? No. Since most decks have removal anyway, there are not many things that it can warp is all.

[square_two]

4. Like I said in my last post, I'm not arguing that Prelate is bad. That's why I will be running it in my DnT. That said, even if I look at your list and count ever cavern as a white source for human (which it isn't, since sometimes you will want an uncounterable TKS or Lodestone), AND I count all four of your Mox Diamonds as white sources (which when you have that many, will sometimes be dead cards), you only have 14 white sources. If you look at the math, that is enough for a reliable WW on turn 7. You need at least 18 white sources in order to cast it on turn 4, as you say you're good with.

I'm playing around with some hypergeometric distributions in excel, and it seems like odds of turn 3 double white (basically top 9 cards) is 68% for 14 sources, 72% for 15, and 76% for 16. My list looks like it has 15 sources. And those %'s are simplified, I'm not going to program what it would be to actually have the gal in hand for those to matter.

For turn 1 double mana, odds are around 78% for 11 sources, 81% for 12. Doesn't take into account actually having the correct lock piece though. Honestly might be worth it to go down on Cities in favor of more white sources. What is more important, a chance for turn 1 Chalice/Thalia, or higher odds of laying down Prelate on turn 3? She provides an awful lot of protection for either our creatures (and thus lock pieces like Thalia/Lodestone) or Chalice (protection from Decay is pretty huge). Maybe 3 is correct since you probably want to see her only once a game and she really suppliments everything else.

As an aside, I checked what it would be with 8 less cards in the deck. Think Git Probe and Street Wraith for instance, sort of a crazed nihilistic prison deck. Odds go up around 10% for double color needs, and 5% for single color. Might be slightly different, it gets screwy if you draw multiple. Pretty uncomfortable amount of lifeloss regardless. And stuff like baubles don't help with T1 lock pieces.

[Fatal]

I already post my list in D&T/Eldrazi thread anyway it's good to point one really good creature which can be omitted:

Blade Splicer

It's not only 3/3 + 1/1 creature mostly turn 1 or 2. It's 5/3 First strike Golem - which can easily kill goyfs, it's 5/3 Golem which can attack/block Batterskull, with so many first strike creatures (Thalia 1.0 and 2.0 also has first strike it's really good). Adding value from Displacer also should be mention, most time 3/3 Golem from Splicer get's bolt, and 1/1 Splicer stay on table, so any Displacer is must to kill ASAP.
With so many first strike creatures, mirrors, and BG matchups is much easier - same for D&T.

List which I'm currently testing:


3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Blade Splicer
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
3 Eldrazi Displacer

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Chalice of the Void

3 Mox Diamond
2 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
4 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest

//SB
4 Warping Wail
4 Reclamation Sage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Constant Mists
2 Winter Orb

Some words about other chooses - fetchlands and basics - I'm running Green splash for 2 cards - Sage and Constant Mists both are best for their aim - Sage vs Moon / Omni / Bridge / Moat and Constant Mists vs Infect / NO Elves. Fetchland and basics also helps a lot for wastelands. Maybe I even reduce more non-sol lands mana base are still on beta stage.

New chalice Guy looks promising but I didn't played him so we will see. It's looks very good vs many decks - like on 1 for U/x/r decks or on 2 for G/b decks.

[Cire]

.

Is Prelate very good? Absolutely. Is it meta-warping? No. Since most decks have removal anyway, there are not many things that it can warp is all.

I think you're underestimating Prelate. Testing will tell, but from what I see it shuts off removal (or we have other cards for that) by itself or it shuts off key cards in certain other strategies. If you think about this card as a turn 3 play . . . which cards does it compete with for that turn?

Aside from Thought-Knot, what card is better than Prelate turn 3? SFM? I don't think so - SFM is a threat, but Prelate itself can either end the game in continuing to lock someone out (that you've already taxed or chaliced), prevent a combo win, or protect against a terminus. Eldrazi Displacer? Again, it's a threat - but is it a bigger threat than Prelate? Prelate @ 3 against D&T for example basically says "you have vial active? No? You lose." Lodestone Golem? Lodestone due to our mana sources is also a turn 3 play instead of a turn 2. Why continue taxing someone when you can just shut them off a key CMC?

That isn't to say you don't run all the above cards, but I just see Prelate as a better option than most of the above-mentioned cards.

I agree, however, that currently, we are not enough white sources (depends on how you count the mox), but that is an issue of working on the mana base over replacing Prelate, which to me is just so much better than other options.

So lets get to work on the mana base.

What we want is to have:

• 2 turn 1
• 2W turn 2
• 3C allowing for Eldrazi mana turn 2
• 4 not allowing Eldrazi mana turn 3
• 1WW turn 3

Under the Frank Karsten article for 90% reliability we need the following for the above results

• 14 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox
• 13 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox and 13 White Sources and/or Mox
• 20 Sol lands (any) and/or Mox
• 11 Non Eldrazi Sol lands and/or Mox
• 19 White Sources and/or Mox
  --------------------------------------
• The total being:
  
  • 4 Mox Diamond
  • 15 White Sources
  • 10 Non Eldrazi Sol Lands
  • 6 Eldrazi Sol Lands

That is just not going to happen! We're just not going to get 90% consistency for anything! As such we need to pick a number of some other consistency that we feel comfortable with.

First lets see what is possible - we are not going to run Eye of Ugin, so at the very best our number will be 4 Eldrazi Sol lands - and only 8 other sol lands exist. So at best we can run:

• 4 Mox Diamond
• 15 White Sources
• 8 Non Eldrazi Sol Lands
• 4 Eldrazi Sol Lands

That leaves us with the following probabilities (using HYPGEOM.DIST in excel (Edit: Someone really should check my math, since I barely know what i'm doing - I find the fact that the numbers drop by 20-30% for getting rid of 4 cards indicative that I did something wrong or don't get Statisitcs. .)

• 2 turn 1 --> % 61
• 2W turn 2 --> % 65
• 3C allowing for Eldrazi mana turn 2 --> % 67
• 4 not allowing Eldrazi mana turn 3 --> % 67

So it seems that 60-70% is our maximum range for having the mana for doing stuff we want by the time we would want to do it. So we should feel comfortable with something in that range for 1WW by turn 3. How many white source can we go down to for that consistency?

• Around 11 or 12, not including those original moxes.

TL/DR - If we count Mox Diamond as a full mana source, we already run around the right number of white sources to be able to cast Prelate by turn 3, at a rate of consistency that we are already used to in regards to casting any of our other cards by the turns we would usually want to cast them.

[square_two]

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

[GoblinSettler]

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

Death and Staxes sounds quite nice.

When playing white, taxing decks with Lodestone, my personal preference lies with Lodestone Creamery.

(It is ice cream time!)

[DisgruntledElk]

Tonight I learned that romariovidal calls his list Death and Staxes. Love it.

Haha considering it's 74/75 my list, I claim naming rights :P

[tsabo_tavoc]

Prelate @ 3 against D&T for example basically says "you have vial active? No? You lose."

I think you missed the noncreature clause in Prelate. The card is far from oppresive.

[Philipp2293]

I played Disgruntled Elk's build from a few pages back to a top 4 finish at a 22 player tournament today, good for a Scrubland.

My MUs were Bant Thopter (2-1), Shardless Bug (2-1), UR Delver (2-0), ID (would have been ANT), ID (would have been Elves), Top 8 Bant Thopter again (2-1) und T4 Death and Taxes (1-2).

Things to take away:

-) Thalia is really really scary, against Bant Thopters alone it won me 3 of my 4 games
-) Moat is extremely annoying, my 2 losses against the Thopters deck were to that card.
-) As for my meta, it would have been correct to run Reality Smasher.
-) For beeing a Stompy deck, the deck really operated well and treated me nice.
-) No sure if the SFM package is really needed. It felt somehow.....not right.

[Cire]

I think you missed the noncreature clause in Prelate. The card is far from oppresive.

My apologies. I did. Still think it is an amazing card in this deck.

[DisgruntledElk]

I played Disgruntled Elk's build from a few pages back to a top 4 finish at a 22 player tournament today, good for a Scrubland.

My MUs were Bant Thopter (2-1), Shardless Bug (2-1), UR Delver (2-0), ID (would have been ANT), ID (would have been Elves), Top 8 Bant Thopter again (2-1) und T4 Death and Taxes (1-2).

Things to take away:

-) Thalia is really really scary, against Bant Thopters alone it won me 3 of my 4 games
-) Moat is extremely annoying, my 2 losses against the Thopters deck were to that card.
-) As for my meta, it would have been correct to run Reality Smasher.
-) For beeing a Stompy deck, the deck really operated well and treated me nice.
-) No sure if the SFM package is really needed. It felt somehow.....not right.

Hey Philipp, glad you liked the deck. I'd like to comment on the takeaways.

-Thalia, HC is indeed a beating. That's why the mana has been configured to maximize your chance of turn 1/2 THC, while not running 4 diamonds (because that's a lot of dead cards)
-Moat is no doubt incredibly obnoxious. That is the main reason I run 2 disenchant in the board. It is certainly not perfect, but I'll usually board them in against any white control deck that has either fliers or a lack of necessity for the combat step. Disenchant also hits random problem permanents like ensnaring bridge or other equipment.
-Based on what you faced, Smasher certainly seems stronger. I would still run Lodestone at any big tournament or any blind meta. That said, smasher seems stronger for the decks you faced.
-I really do prefer this build of the deck, as it does minimize the downside of a stompy deck while retaining a lot of the upside like a fast clock/quick disruption.
-The SFM package is not ideal for your meta either, though batterskull is great vs Shardless and DnT. I have certainly considered moving the 4 slots to the board and tweaking the main around it, but against anything very fair, a quick Jitte is quite the beating. I will certainly acknowledge that it is the clunkiest part of the deck.

[square_two]

If we wanted a manland, I guess Mishra's Factory is the best? Just saw Dread Statuary and the idea of running it with Blade Splicer made me chuckle. I know it's a reprint in Conspiracy, but we could totally be golem tribal! Honestly though if we are running the splicer, that is the potential for a lot of first strike damage thanks to both Thalia's.

[Philipp2293]

The more I think about it the more I like Blade Splicer. Blinking it is huge value, and it presents more pressure than SFM. I just don't wanna overload our 3 drop slot.

[Fatal]

Test shows that Blade Slicer is most time 2 for 1 with really fast pressure on opponent, I test it vs most decks, and every time token and a 1/1 Support get dedicated removal which is huge for 3 mana. It shine vs D&T, BUG, Tempo and Miracles !