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Thread: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

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    [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    https://thesaltminesite.com/2016/10/...ure-of-legacy/

    In this week’s episode we confront a topic we’ve been meaning to talk about for some time… The 2017 GP schedule, lacking Legacy GPs in Europe and Asia. Is this an indication of what the future of Legacy holds? We bring Dice_Box from The Source to discuss this.

    Enjoy!

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Thanks for listening everyone, I would really like to get some feedback and thoughts from the people that do listen.

    Basically:

    A: Are you in Team Dice_Box, and are happy to just have specialist only events organised by the community (as Vintage and 93/94 are), or;

    B: Are you in Team Steve, which still wants 1 Euro, 1 American and 1 Asian Legacy GP per year.

    Cheers.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Team B, given how well attended legacy GPs tend to be, it's silly they would waste an opportunity to further monetize a portion of their community, doubly so with how underwhelming standard has been largely for the past 1-2 years.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    First of all, great cast guys. I'm a Dane that used to live in Melbourne 10 years ago so hearing you guys - great content aside - makes me feel quite nostalgic

    Regarding this very interesting topic I find myself leaning towards B though not without a pinch of A.

    I think B is a fine place to be. My friends and I are obviously disappointed to not get a European gp this as we've made this an annual trip, but this will be fairly easily replaced by eternal weekend or BoM or the likes. I expect the European Legacy format will be ok for the forseable future as the surplus in demand left from the gp being cut should be supplied by the bevy of other non-WotC events some of which might consolidate over time.

    Having said that it's always disappointing to have something taken away. And I do see it as a positive to have a yearly event where the spotlight from WotC and the pros are set on our format as it does help get new players interested so I'm not happy with this decision. But like Dice said, it's been a long time coming, sadly.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Thanks for listening everyone, I would really like to get some feedback and thoughts from the people that do listen.

    Basically:

    A: Are you in Team Dice_Box, and are happy to just have specialist only events organised by the community (as Vintage and 93/94 are), or;

    B: Are you in Team Steve, which still wants 1 Euro, 1 American and 1 Asian Legacy GP per year.

    Cheers.
    Not sure I made my point clear enough in the podcast. I'm basically on Team Dice_Box, IFF Wizards get the fuck out of Legacy. If I were still living in Melbourne, I'd be more comfortable with a community approach, as there'd be a properly established scene for me to play in. That said, the chances of a Legacy GP remotely near where I live is an impossibility, but the concept of playing at a 'nearby' GP in a format that isn't dogshit has always been so. I guess it's more the novelty of a Legacy GP that I'm on-board with, than the actual GP part itself.

    Gimme a largeish (100+) Legacy event or two in Australasia each year, and I'd still be happy.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Thanks for listening everyone, I would really like to get some feedback and thoughts from the people that do listen.

    Basically:

    A: Are you in Team Dice_Box, and are happy to just have specialist only events organised by the community (as Vintage and 93/94 are), or;

    B: Are you in Team Steve, which still wants 1 Euro, 1 American and 1 Asian Legacy GP per year.

    Cheers.
    Hi Steve, Long-time listener first time caller! (It’s Adrian here if case you’re wondering)

    I took quite a bit of issue with what you said on the cast actually, so much that I feel you're Sheldon in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1zoX5Ax9U

    Things I took issue with:
    1. You said Wizards can make money off eternal players with more events
    2. You compared a GP to the Olympics
    3. You alluded that the reduction to 2 GPs was the end of Legacy


    I shall address these points individually
    Wizards making money off events
    I think the people who point at GP NJ and GP Madrid and go "2 of the largest constructed GPs were Legacy" are missing a point, they became very large due to the rarity & the players desire to travel to them. If Legacy GPs were 6 times a year they'd drastically reduce in size and people wouldn't be so keen to travel to an event as there would be another one closer in 3 months’ time. At the moment people regularly travel across the entire USA for the big Legacy event per year, if say both coasts were to get 2 events per year people wouldn't travel out of region for them.

    The second thing on this is Wizards do not make money out of GP's & the PT the TOs do but the funding is mostly from WoTC / Hasbro marketing department & what do marketing want? To increase the brand exposure of the new product that they can sell for ever. This is why there's a cluster of limited GPs right after each set release then moving to standard constructed events normally followed at the end of the standard season by a modern or legacy weekend. There's only a limited number of weekends for modern / legacy GPs due to the following blanked out weekends:
    1. 4 Set releases
    2. 4 Per-release weekends,
    3. 4 Limited GP weekends,
    4. 4 Pro Tours per year,
    5. 1 worlds weekend per year
    6. 5 weekends for the holidays - Note they put Chiba on USA Thanksgiving to get around this / free up an additional weekend this year
    7. 4 RPTQs - This season they've gone for 2 weekends for these, if you have a GP in region your RPTQ is the weekend after to free up weekends


    The GP schedule for next year seems to be:
    Set Pre-release weekend – No GP
    Set Release weekend – No GP
    Limited GPs weekend 2-3 GPs scattered around the world
    Pro Tour – No GP
    Game Day – No GP – normally! Next year there’s actually a couple GPs on game days
    Standard GP
    Standard GP
    <Constructed GP> - This is where the Modern & Legacy GP’s are. Note the modern GP weekends tend to be 2 modern GPs on the same weekend next year which is an opportunity for more Legacy – The vegas weekend sits in this slot year as well.
    Team Limited
    Week off (I’m guessing RPTQ’s / WMCQ’s will be in these weekends next year)
    Set Pre-release

    As you can see from a marketing perspective there actually isn’t many slots for non-standard constructed GPs. For the amount of revenue we get from Wizards I honestly think we as eternal players are lucky to get 2-3 per season.

    You compared a GP to the Olympics
    There is no way a pay to enter event that occurs 2-3 times per year even comes close to the commitment that qualifying for the Olympics requires, I have several friends who are / have been Olympians and they dedicated 10+ years of their life to their sport, sacrificed money, career & family to dedicate themselves to the dream of a once in 4 years competing on the big stage. Not even the MTG World Cup with 16-24 players multi format comes close to the dedication required for the Olympics. It’s the closest thing MTG has to the Olympics and yes it doesn’t play Legacy there but it does play magic and if that was my goal I would play the formats that get me there.

    To look it at a different way I cycle & run competitively however neither of my chosen disciplines of cycling or running are Olympic events but if I had the desire (and talent) to compete on that stage I would be forced to switch to disciplines that did. Back on the magic topic my mate and Silver pro Zen Takahashi will say his favourite format is Legacy (Esper Stoneblade 4 lyfe) but because he desires playing on the pro tour and maybe one day a world slot he dedicates himself to Limited and Standard & is often forced to choose between Legacy and Standard and heads off to the format that will keep him on the pro tour path.

    You alluded that the reduction to 2 GPs was the end of Legacy
    It’s not. Let’s look at how many GPs there has been per PT season because it all matters around the pro-tour. Currently we have the entire schedule for PT year 16-17 & the announcement of EW’s 2017.
    2007 – 1
    2008 – 0
    2009 – 1
    2010 – 2
    2011 – 2
    12-13 – 5 (change to the Sept-Aug seasons)
    13-14 – 2 (the reduction to 2 was much teeth gashing then)
    14-15 – 3 (there was much celebration with the addition of the 3rd again)
    16-17 – 3 (wait there’s no reduction? Oh shit!)
    17-18 - ?

    Now the big thing we don’t is how many there will be in the 17-18 season including the announcement that will come mid next year? They could still slot an event in for late 2017 but I suspect they won’t. Note the overall number of GPs has fallen the last 2 years to accommodate 4 set releases per year & at the same time they’ve bought in the x-2 rule for PT invites so the overall number of PT invites has gone up.

    I also think that in time WoTC sees the eternal weekends which since year 2 as a better fit for the bulk of eternal events & the move to 2 of them + 2 GPs. Note with the rules change where premium events with byes expect the winners (or even the T4) of the EW events to be awarded PT entries like the SCG invitational winners are, this is a great way for WoTC to give away PT spots to eternal players without the problems of PT points in smaller events. I suspect in time we’ll see more of these events endorsed by Wizards.

    That's my summary of points I wanted to raise, I enjoyed the cast once again. I am highly disappointed in hearing the words "I like delver" out of Steve but he's an Aussie who drives a Toybota so I guess I shouldn't have expectations of taste.

    Oh I've also decided Dice is my Brisbane soul brother from another mother. Shops and Lands 4 lyfe.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Oh yes. A vote:
    C. I want magic to keep being a thing and agree that as a business wizards need to do what ever they can do to continue growing the game and making little bits of cardboard for me to collect.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Just wrapped up the episode - thanks guys! Dice has been a great contributor whenever he's on, so I hope we see more of him in the future. Now re. Steve's question:

    I don't think there's a real argument that A is worse than B, but I think B is a fine situation. The point was repeatedly made in the episode that GPs are the Olympics of Legacy, but the weight of the "GP" title is kind of nebulous, right? Like we all think it's an amazing accomplishment to win a GP, but you can't really explain why it's much more impressive than winning something like BoM or an SCG Open. And if we gradually see WotC moving away from Legacy GPs and independent organizers picking up the slack, won't those events gradually gain the prestige GPs have? In other words, I think it's just a matter of time before things right themselves.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    I started listening to this podcast last week and got caught up through episode 6 this afternoon. I must say I absolutely love it (as well as the weekly MTG Goldfish articles, which is how I found out about the podcast in the first place)! I'm very excited to listen to this episode tomorrow.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Thanks for the love guys!

    Dice's contributions to the cast have been great which is why we specifically waited for Dice to be free to do the ep. It's easy for arguments to turn into circlejerks (especially when people have strong opinions and love the sound of their own voice - which I certainly do) and I think we had a rather good debate.

    I think the prestige that comes with GP wins will always give it an edge - compare GPs or Pro Tours to SCG Invi's.
    Although the SCG Invi's are more visible and far more entertaining to watch (well at least they were when they used to have Standard and Legacy instead of Standard and Modern like they do now), they were never on the level of Pro Tours or GP's instead of prestige. Whether that matters to you is subjective I guess. My issue is that Australia will never have Legacy with >100 people, and the GP was really my only avenue to playing in a massive Legacy event - Japan having a yearly Legacy GP was something to work to.

    In the end we're basically in the care of a company that doesn't give a shit about us, it's just extremely disappointing that Legacy has been relegated to the dumpster, despite it being the only format I can stomach.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    I'm in team B - GPs just have an allure to me and many of my friends, that makes us more prone to traveling far & spending a lot of money, than 300 player die hard specialized events.

    Also, it keeps Legacy more connected to 'other magic', doesn't it? Because of the link with pro points or whatever (that I don't really care about personally), it gives non-Legacy players an incentive to play in Legacy GPs and, who knows, some of them may like it and stay?
    If the main Legacy tourneys are just Eternal Weekends for people who already love Legacy, won't wannabe pro grinders just stay away from the format from now on?

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Keeping wannabe pro-grinders away can't be a bad thing
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    Also, it keeps Legacy more connected to 'other magic', doesn't it?
    To me, this is huge and the main reason why I am so disappointed about them being pretty much about to drop Legacy from the GP scene, from what it seems like.

    I don't actively try to make it to the Pro Tour or Pro Points (probably just like 95% of people who play Limited GPs), but being part of the general framework means a lot to me. It provides legitimacy, exposure and trust to the format. Having event coverage on the front page of the mothership as opposed to some third party does mean a lot.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    To me, this is huge and the main reason why I am so disappointed about them being pretty much about to drop Legacy from the GP scene, from what it seems like.

    I don't actively try to make it to the Pro Tour or Pro Points (probably just like 95% of people who play Limited GPs), but being part of the general framework means a lot to me. It provides legitimacy, exposure and trust to the format. Having event coverage on the front page of the mothership as opposed to some third party does mean a lot.
    Nicely put, I agree completely.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    To me, this is huge and the main reason why I am so disappointed about them being pretty much about to drop Legacy from the GP scene, from what it seems like.

    I don't actively try to make it to the Pro Tour or Pro Points (probably just like 95% of people who play Limited GPs), but being part of the general framework means a lot to me. It provides legitimacy, exposure and trust to the format. Having event coverage on the front page of the mothership as opposed to some third party does mean a lot.
    Wanted to say something similar but Julian hit the bullseye so I'll just quote, like, sign and +1.

    99% of legacy players don’t have any aspiration to get on the Pro tour train, but loosing Wizards support in terms of GPs is them publically raising middle finger to the legacy community, especially with the reasoning they provided. As Julian said it gave legacy GP and the format special power, special place in MTG realm, it gave it legitimacy, credibility and now we are losing that.. I don't care in which camp you are in (as per podcast) but hope you realize that we all lost something big and that even heavier losses will yet to come (as an indirect result of this change) in the next years. And I'm not looking forward to this..

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    I think I layed out more or less all my views in the cast, I also stated on Reddit that I expected my views to be unpopular, but I was grateful I was able to express them all the same.

    To me a GP has less meaning than Eternal Weekend. I would rather win Eternal Weekend with a lower EV than a GP with greater. I would rather play with a bunch of people who love this format as much as I do and are into their decks as much as I am. I want to play against them too. If you take away the PT invite all you have left for a GP in my view is a dollar amount and a name on a website. That and the experience. For me I would rather a tighter group who are just as dedicated for my large event than a massive one without that feel.

    Now I should add that for Legacy events I have to fly many numbers of hours, I have to book hotels at a large cost to myself and I have to then fly back after at a cost of several thousands of dollars. With that in mind I guess I am more willing to be picky about what I get out of my choice of event. As I said on the cast, I do not want to go to a legacy event and face a Modern deck round one and two. I want to play Legacy. I think that if I went to a Legacy event at a cost of maybe 5 grand to myself and got knocked out in the opening 4 rounds with 2 jank decks I would be a little unhappy about that. Perhaps that is the reason for my views on holding up Eternal Weekend as my target. Also I can play vintage there too. I am not sure. What I do know is this, for me, an oversized Dual land with "Legacy Eternal Weekend Champion" would mean more to me than 10k US would. Not that I am a good enough player to ever get to either, but if I had to live the dream, I am haging that fucker on my wall faster than any of you can cash that cheque.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    I disagree about a lot of the assessments (especially with regards to player base) you make, Dice, but I respect them. After all there's not right or wrong when it comes to which events you enjoy playing in more, as in the end your enjoyment is the only relevant factor.

    However I am scared. If everything I heard from the German crowd, only a tiny fragment of all the grinders is going to Eternal Weekend in Paris this weekend. A lot of them weren't even fully aware of what "an Eternal Weekend?" actually was and why they should go. I really hope they gather more than 200 people for Legacy but honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was less. Maybe much less :(. I hope other EU regions will be able to show better representation.
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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    As I said on the cast, I do not want to go to a legacy event and face a Modern deck round one and two.
    As a quick note, this isn't my experience. I feel like my initial opponents tend to be on real Legacy decks, but they don't really play the format very often. Like, maybe they want to play it more and came to the event because there's never normally Legacy in their area, or they're Standard/Modern grinders who also happen to own a Legacy deck. It's sort of a different version of the unsatisfying feeling you're talking about, and it's possibly a reason that Eternal Weekend-style events are better than GPs.

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    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
    As a quick note, this isn't my experience. I feel like my initial opponents tend to be on real Legacy decks, but they don't really play the format very often. Like, maybe they want to play it more and came to the event because there's never normally Legacy in their area, or they're Standard/Modern grinders who also happen to own a Legacy deck. It's sort of a different version of the unsatisfying feeling you're talking about, and it's possibly a reason that Eternal Weekend-style events are better than GPs.
    I still think it's great that Legacy GPs give these people a reason to keep their Legacy decks even when they hardly play it, and a reason to take it off their shelves once in a while ;)



    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I would rather play with a bunch of people who love this format as much as I do and are into their decks as much as I am. I want to play against them too. If you take away the PT invite all you have left for a GP in my view is a dollar amount and a name on a website. That and the experience. For me I would rather a tighter group who are just as dedicated for my large event than a massive one without that feel.
    Guess it depends on the community in your country/region, but for me that's what any bigger scale legacy event over here already feels like. Maybe an EW has like 9 rounds or something? But 7-round tournaments that take a whole day, are already happening over here (if only 2-3x/year), and there it's full of people who are very into Legacy and their pet decks etc.

    (granted, without the feel of being away a whole weekend to a faraway country. But just the play experience I mean ;) )

  20. #20

    Re: [Podcast] - The Salt Mine Episode 7, FT Dice_Box

    Great podcast - glad someone is filling in the holes for The Brainstorm Show since one of their members has been hiking the Alps for the past month.

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