I think the big issue is what a reasonable amount of time per decision is given a constantly changing number of factors. It's just going to be different for everyone. Maybe the solution to this is have a set amount of time that a turn can last, but that is just going to cause more headaches.
Can't you just solve this with simple communication? I know that this isn't ideal considering there are situations where you can use your knowledge of your deck/the game to gain an advantage in the matchup e.g. resolving spells under a chalice. I've resorted to constantly asking my opponent if a spell or trigger has resolved and if they say something like thinking I give them a little while before badgering them again. I've been burned too many times by trying to wait only for my opponent to finally them finally respond when I assumed a game action of mine had resolved, had a judge called and have the judge not rule in my favor.
Don't you think the Pope would rather play...Miracles?
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Slow play is an issue in MTG in general, maybe even more so in legacy because people just don't play that many games/events so they are naturally more slow in processing game plays. Not that this excuses them much, just saying..
If an opponent plays at somehow reasonable pace all game and stops to think a bit harder during on of those crucial turn I would almost call it unsportly to start reminding my opponent of slow play and calling judge after 60 seconds. I would consider it even more unsportly if my opponent would start reminding/terrorizing me every 15 seconds interrupting my thought process, even more so in the presence of a judge. But as said this is only "true", when a player keeps playing at reasonable pace throughout the game and just make one, two (or very few) "deep tanks" during crucial turns.
However, if the player is playing at slow pace every single turn and takes even longer at crucial turns then yes, I would also call a judge and let him handle it without any further reminder to my opponent (while in the presence of a judge - he is the authority nonetheless).
It is also true that judges are not adequately trained on this topic and Magic as general doesn't have a good consensus/grip on what slow paly is and how to handle time per decision making in regards to game status. Until Wizards/Judge community don't address this issue more seriously (at least at competitive level) I don't see us (players) collectively achieving much, other than creating few self-proclaimed "experts" who will go around timing (terrorizing) every single opponent move. For the awareness to really kick in call for a change needs to come from top to bottom and not the other way around (especially with rules being so openly written right now..).
can you imagine how ridiculous would be the actual going to time?... Miracles players already "miraclously" speed up in last turns of the game, timing people on triggers in RL would lead into some really heated stuff... also how would player communication/judge calls and so on work then?
One possibility for so much slow play is people going from small events at their locals to larger ones. Playing Doomsday at my local, people know me, know my deck choice and often are too helpful in giving me more decision time (which in one way is great, but in others actually hampers my ability to have to make quick decisions). This jump from one scene to another may be quite a step for those used to the friendlier confines.
Having made the jump at Prague this year. I found myself playing quickly but not rushing and people being quite friendly and lenient on one or two decisions I could have been called to speed up on but obviously everyone is different.
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
Simple question. Can't you just ask "ok ?" (or "resolves ?", or whatever) each and every time you put a spell on the stack (and don't intend to keep priority of course) ? Either right then, or after a couple seconds if there's absolutely no reaction from the opponent. At least you'll have an answer - yes, no, or thinking - that you know how to deal with.
Not only should it solve your problem (?), but if it's systematic and natural, it won't raise suspicion when it is also asked in front of a Chalice. Although since Chalice is a mandatory trigger, even if the opponent misses it, you're obligated to remind him of it, so I'm not really sure what gain there'd be to expect.
I think 30 seconds is on the short end. Normally if an opponent doesn't make a play within 60 seconds I will ask them what they are doing. There are spots where more time is needed but as the judges you asked said people should be planning ahead unless the board state dramatically changes. This weekend in modern one of my opponents got a prompt from a judge after thinking for 1-2 minutes. Was this warranted probably but a couple of turns earlier I had also tanked for a couple of minutes and when I passed the turn with about 16 mintues left I made the comment to him that this game(game 3) is probably going to end in about 4 turns and we both proceeded to take 1-2 minutes on each of our next few turns.
I think your biggest mistake was not calling a judge earlier in the process. You should be able to make decisions in a timely manner and if you/they continually do not do so a judge needs to be involved. People tend not to speed up when the opponent is asked and only when a judge is asked. While you did eventually ask for a judge you made it sound like he was not comfortable. At that point you could ask the judge to see if another judge would be able to watch for slow play (which could lead to a penalty for essentially disrespecting a judge) or another option is when you call over the judge write down the time left in the round(I'd try and make sure judge sees or verbally say there is X time left). And after 60 seconds I would say something to the judge. If he responds with a complicated board state you should say that shouldn't affect a slow play decision and the board has not significantly changed from previous turns. Yes people hate making slow play calls and tend to be more lenient in Legacy but they won't stop unless players keep pushing the issue. Also after the round you should probably have talked to the head judge about both your opponent and the judge. While to late for you he could educate his fellow judge and also keep an eye on your opponent and if he is playing slow either speed him up or game loss/match loss him out with enough slow play warnings
I've been called for slow play before and I am normally a pretty fast player. It isn't easy for the judges either because they sometimes come in at the most complicated time when you do truly need to spend a couple of minutes on the board and/or tank. But if you need to tank you can even after being warned to make a play. Just realize you will get a slow play warning which will only matter if you proceed to get more.
Ben Wienburg
You have no idea how many times I sat across a dude not answering that simple question for 10+ seconds.
The joke is that if you simply proceed and the other guy/gal decides to do something while the next spell is already on the stack its becoming a mess involving the Judge, you returning the second spell to your hand and the opponent getting the gamestate rewinded AND the additional information about your hand and plan.
P.S.: Don't get me started on some Judges, please. Every big event I played in France, I encountered a situation where I wanted to punch one of them for acting like a douche, making unreasonable rulings (see example above and Julians Article), discuss my altered cards IN THE MIDDLE OF A GAME despite me having the "ok" from the Headjudge to play them (distraction, hello?) or requested me to play faster during the combo turn in game 3 (wtf seriously?)
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30 seconds is super short. Just for refernce i tbought id add that hearthstone turns are 1 min 30 seconds. I know the games arnt the same, blah blah blah but as i said its just a reference.
Last edited by apple713; 11-18-2016 at 12:57 AM.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
If we could do away with that idea, that would already be progress towards a better playing environment. Nobody is gonna give you a Slow Play Warning after 30 seconds, but that's pretty much when you already start venturing into "this guy should really start doing something now" territory.
There's no fixed duration of time you can take. And that for good reason, as others have pointed out. Having a fixed time would open the doors to even more widespread time issues. It's already bad enough as it is right now.
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
In Warmachine, the clock continues running on the active player's turn as a kind of "you should know what your shit does." Obviously, in a miniatures game, things are a bit different though. Most judge calls in MTG seem to come from the opponent.
Especially in the case I mentioned, I feel weird against this because it feels a lot like I'm rubbing in that I'm about to crush the guy.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
They should treat draws as losses for both players, and perhaps even subtract a point as a punishment for delaying the logistics of the tournament organizer. That incentivizes people to avoid drawing. This way, Miracle won't remain a popular deck for people that are not able to play it quickly. The draws will force most miracle players to the bottom of the ranking, while the true masters will still make top 8's. This solves not only slow play, but also the time cost of cards like Sensei's Divining Top.
Also, if you constantly get into problems against miracle players, play revokers/needles/null rod and discard effects
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
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So in the case of the Chalice, what am I to do? Do I put my spell on the stack and stare at my opponent's face until he either responds or time expires?
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
No. You can cast into a Chalice, its on the controller to remember the trigger.
2.6. Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State
Definition
A player allows another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error involving an effect or action that he or she
does not control, and has not pointed it out immediately. If a judge believes a player is intentionally not pointing out
other players’ illegal actions, either for his or her own advantage, or in the hope of bringing it up at a more
strategically advantageous time, they should consider an Unsporting Conduct — Cheating infraction. Not reminding
an opponent about his or her triggered abilities is never Failure to Maintain Game State or Cheating.
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