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Thread: Paradoxical Paladin

  1. #1
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    Paradoxical Paladin

    So tonight one of the modern guys played this pile, mostly filled with what he had on hand, not tuned at all. Went 3-1.

    Creatures
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Monastery Mentor
    1 Laboratory Mainac

    Spells
    4 Serum Visions
    3 Slight of Hand
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    4 Paradoxical Outcome

    Enchantments
    2 Jeskai Ascendancy

    Artifacts (Non Equipment)
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Aetherflux Reservoir

    Artifacts (Equipment)
    2 Bone Saw
    4 Cathar's Shield
    4 Kite Shield
    4 Spidersilk Net

    Lands
    17 Lands.


    Its fucking real. I mean it. It feels like a storm deck that just goes crazy. It was fantastic to watch. Anyway. I notices a few things.

    Mana was often an issue.
    He lacked meaningful interaction
    He had a crowd.

    I want to build on this, I think it has a shot at being real. Not real good, but real. So my plan is this.

    Cut Ascendancy for another Slight of Hand and Mentor
    Add a playset of Paradise Mantle
    Look at adding Spirit Guides.

    The first two are easy, the second two not so much. Anyway. Who wants to dig into this. It's fun, I promise.

    Edit:
    Update.

    Artifact (20)
    2x Aetherflux Reservoir
    4x Cathar's Shield
    2x Kite Shield
    4x Mox Opal
    4x Paradise Mantle
    4x Spidersilk Net

    Land (17)
    2x Arid Mesa
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Hallowed Fountain
    2x Island
    3x Plains
    2x Scalding Tarn

    Creature (9)
    1x Laboratory Maniac
    4x Monastery Mentor
    4x Puresteel Paladin

    Instant (6)
    4x Paradoxical Outcome
    2x Retract

    Sorcery (8)
    4x Serum Visions
    4x Sleight of Hand
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 11-23-2016 at 11:26 AM.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin



    This looks horrible and hilarious. Paradise Mantle is more certainly better than Bone Saw though.

    I think you are right on cutting the Ascendancy, as this lets you get down to two colors, which I would think would help the mana situation.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Its evil with Mentor. There was a game he dropped mentor, made four tokens. Untapped, Paradox, made ten tokens, overran a Wurmcoil. It is just sweet. I do not know if this will ever be a great deck, but it is able to do the most busted shit.

    I have been looking into other lists, it looks like Retract might be one of the cards to put in here. One mana single sided Recall. Looks like it will fit the bill. The issue is always Mana, so if you can get a slightly cheaper card, I think its a go. I have also seen Mass Hysteria used. While it is cute to use it, Mentor and Mantle, I do not think it is worth playing Red for Haste. I might be wrong, but I think you can make this deck hum on a two colour Base.

    Oh, and Reservoir... :) . What a fucking card that is. I saw it used against Bant Eldrazi. The player found it late into his combo, played it and dropped two artifacts gaining 21 life. Fuck.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  4. #4
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    This is something that has just been waiting for a printing to push it into 'real deal' territory. Or possibly for someone to optimize the list.

    Here's some help.


    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19417&iddeck=147718

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16627&iddeck=124483

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14766&iddeck=109381

    http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13657&iddeck=100326


    Thoughts from comparing those lists with yours:

    - Looks like Glimmervoid could help if you stick with 3 colors.
    - Grapeshot is a win condition that avoids the combat step.
    - Spellskite protects Paladin and absorbs early attacks.
    - Noxious Revival!

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I am going to try and see what a two colour only build feels like. This is a pet project, so I am not going to spend 50 bucks on a card if I can dodge it, but the idea is sound.

    Grapeshot is a good idea, but I am hoping to stay out of red. Right now, in preliminary testing, I have 3 ways (Lab and Aetherflux) to kill without combat steps are available. The issue is that both are easy to answer. A Storm card will likely find a home here in the future.

    Spellskite is not something I thought of. I like it.

    No space right now for Noxious, I think the build is already very low on equipment, so I am not sure what to do with that yet.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  6. #6

    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I've been working on this deck as a side project for a few months. 4-1ed a few leagues, but never quite got there. Gaveleer gives you a surprisingly strong plan B.

    Creatures

    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Goblin Gaveleer (I'm not joking)
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Retract
    2 Paradoxical Outcome
    3 Sigarda's Aid (Incredible)
    8 Shields
    4 Spidersilk
    3 Bonesaw
    4 Paradise Mantle
    1 Grapeshot
    4 Sleight of Hand
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Arid Mesa
    1 Marsh Flats
    2 Hallowed Fountain
    2 Steam Vents
    2 UW Fastland
    1 Sacred Foundry
    1 Plains
    1 Island

  7. #7
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    The Puresteel decks have certainly gained some tech. There seem to be lots of different ways to go about building this. After throwing together a rough list based on those above, I started to consider the following cards:

    Gitaxian Probe - This card is busted and heavily played in numerous decks for that reason. Being a free cantrip is solid and fits with the pseudo-storm plan, but the information it provides is invaluable; knowing if your opponent is holding a removal spell for your Paladin can be all the difference.

    Twisted Image - It's another cantrip, it can kill Spellskite, and it has other niche uses; most notably, it can serve as a win condition. I found myself having a Paladin equipped with multiple shields and being something in the realm of 2/15; flip that and your opponent is likely dead.

    Accorder's Shield - It's the best shield. Giving your creature vigilance allows you to chip in for damage and still get mana from tapping them with Paradise Mantle. If nothing else, it allows you to actually attack, since the deck is so creature light, you can't afford to tap your creatures on a non-combo turn (unless you've made some monk tokens with Monastery Mentor). EDIT* - Accorder's Shield is functionally identical to Cathar's Shield. I believe the deck should be running full sets of each. Kite Shield has the same costs, but doesn't provide vigilance. I don't think you need to run any more than 16 0-cost equipment, but if you did, I think Kite Shield is next in line, though I see a number of builds running Bone Saw. I feel the saw is just too weak. If you're going to run it, you need to run 4 so you have the last resort of stacking them on a single creature to make it large enough to compete. I much prefer the line of playing the defensive shields and running a single Twisted Image.
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 12-03-2016 at 05:54 PM.

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Here's the list I've been tinkering with.

    Paradoxical Paladin
    CREATURES
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Monastery Mentor
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    SPELLS
    4 Accorder's Shield
    1 Aetherflux Reservoir
    2 Cathar's Shield
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Kite Shield
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Paradise Mantle
    2 Paradoxical Outcome
    3 Retract
    1 Sigarda's Aid
    4 Sleight of Hand
    4 Spidersilk Net
    1 Twisted Image
    LAND
    1 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Adarkar Wastes
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Glimmervoid
    4 Hallowed Fountain
    3 Seachrome Coast

    The biggest issue I have with the deck is either running out of cards in hand (particularly if my Paladin gets killed) or not having enough mana at crucial points. Paradoxical Outcome resolving feels like it almost ensures a win, but getting 4 mana can be difficult. There's an awkward tension when you're able to play a Paladin on turn 2 and have a few 0 cost equipment in hand - you can play them right away to draw cards or you can hold them until the following turn so you have untapped lands. That's a scenario where having Sigarda's Aid on turn 1 is really helpful. That said, Sigarda's Aid is a really high variance card. It's great early and near worthless mid combo.

    While I love both Laboratory Maniac and Aetherflux Reservoir, I wonder if having all of these combos in the same deck is really worthwhile. Each combo has its own pros/cons, so I'm not sure what I'd remove first, if anything.

    Being able to give your creatures haste would be really helpful. If you can give your whole team haste, Monastery Mentor becomes incredibly lethal. Haste, even on an individual creature, can really help with mana issues, as it allows you to use Paradise Mantle much more effectively. Splashing red for Mass Hysteria is an option that is relatively low investment. Alternatively, running a copy or two of Lightning Greeves could work, trading the raw power of giving your whole team haste for adding another equipment to the list, which implies additional card draw.

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I have seen Repeal suggested as a Cantrip. Its one Blue, draw a card if you have any of your Equipment on the table, free if you have a Mox and you can interact with other problematic cards with it too.

    I have been fishing with some lists, not sure 16 mana is right. I am on 15. I am also moving the Maniac to the side. His primary use in my eyes is getting around the card Worship. Worship is not really a main deck card and the space is useful for other things.

    Goblin Gaveleer is cute, I like it. With Sigarda's Aid I can see some busted things happening. I do not know if I would run one without the other though.

    I am thinking that Mass Hysteria might be worth splashing for. Also then Wear//Tear becomes a sideboard option and all I think it would take is a single Shock. This is something I am going to look at. I am also looking at my sideboard options right now. One of the things I like is that this deck has a larger amount of cute cards you can add them most other decks do. One of the dangers is this deck has cute cards...

    I have seen Ornithopter suggested because it can be used as a makeshift turn one Bird with Mantle. I think it is more handy to block with, but in testing it seems cute but otherwise ineffective at anything we really require.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Dice_Box, you make some solid points. One thing that I'm loving about this list is that there are a lot of unique sideboard options that serve dual purposes in the context of this deck. I think I'm going to try the red splash for Mass Hysteria, which would then put some Wear/Tear in my sideboard. You mention Repeal as a bounce spell that also functions as a cantrip; while I think that's really awesome, I think it's more of a sideboard card. With that in mind, I saw Echoing Truth in one of the boards from the lists linked above. That seems sweet as an answer to problematic permanents/tokens, as well as a way to bounce multiple pieces of your own equipment for the rebuy on card draw.

  11. #11

    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    If you want to see a lot of the discussion that has taken place on this, it's referred to as "Modern Cheerios" over on MTGSalvation. Paradoxical Outcome came out after I gave up on the deck. That may have been one of the things it needed to overcome some inconsistency issues.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
    - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I've been jamming games on Xmage since posting my prior list. I've made some tweaks and have come to the following list. It feels like it's getting close.

    Paradoxical Paladin
    CREATURES
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Monastery Mentor
    SPELLS
    4 Accorder's Shield
    1 Aetherflux Reservoir
    4 Cathar's Shield
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Lightning Greeves
    2 Mass Hysteria
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Paradise Mantle
    1 Paradoxical Outcome
    3 Retract
    1 Sigarda's Aid
    4 Sleight of Hand
    4 Spidersilk Net
    1 Twisted Image
    LAND
    1 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mana Confluence
    1 Sacred Foundry
    3 Seachrome Coast

    Sideboard (preliminary build)
    2 Dispatch
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Monastery Mentor
    1 Repeal
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Sigarda's Aid
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Twisted Image
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Laboratory Maniac

    The red splash for Mass Hysteria feels completely correct. It's not hard to get the mana with the one fetchable shockland, Mana Confluence, Paradise Mantle, and Mox Opals. Depending what you're playing against, you generally don't want to play Mass Hysteria until right before you attack or need to use mana from your Paradise Mantle-equipped creatures. The single Lightning Greeves is actually better for protecting your combo creatures from removal than anything else. I could see Swiftfoot Boots being used instead, as hexproof is better than shroud and you Paladin negates the equip cost much of the time.

    I've moved the Laboratory Maniac to the sideboard, as a way to win when combat isn't an option. Aetherflux Reservoir remains in the list, as it has show itself to be useful against aggro by just being able to gain enough life to buy an extra turn. I trimmed Paradoxical Outcome down to a single copy, simply because of its expensive mana cost. Most of the time, Retract is just better. While Outcome "draws all the cards" for 4 mana, Retract "draws enough cards" for only a single mana.

    I have seen at least one version of the deck running Riddlesmith, which seems interesting. I think it seems better if Lab Maniac is your primary win condition. You could possibly run Riddlesmith over Monastery Mentor (as a budget option, if nothing else). It's worth noting that all/most of the creatures this deck wants are humans, so Cavern of Souls could be considered.
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 12-03-2016 at 05:48 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I've become perhaps a little too fond of the archetype. After trying numerous tweaks, I've finally found a maindeck configuration that I'm really happy with:

    Paradoxical Paladin
    CREATURES
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Monastery Mentor
    1 Riddlesmith
    SPELLS
    4 Accorder's Shield
    4 Cathar's Shield
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Grapeshot
    2 Mass Hysteria
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Paradise Mantle
    1 Paradoxical Outcome
    3 Retract
    4 Serum Visions
    1 Sigarda's Aid
    4 Spidersilk Net
    1 Twisted Image
    LAND
    1 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mana Confluence
    1 Sacred Foundry
    3 Seachrome Coast

    Compared to my prior list (post immediately prior to this one), I've cut Aetherflux Reservoir in favor of Grapeshot. Reservoir was too clunky and was always a "win more" card. Grapeshot, on the other hand, can win you games you otherwise wouldn't by virtue of being able to chain equipment into Mox Opal, into Retract, into Grapeshot while tapped out. I've also replaced Sleight of Hand with Serum Visions. My original thought was that Sleight was better for digging to your combo piece any time after turn 1. The more I played though, I realized that the deck wanted more/better turn 1 plays. Serum Visions's scry is actually really nice on your combo turn as well, as you can clear a land out of the way to make it easier to chain equipment or proceed with confidence knowing your next two draws; in short, it reduces variance.

    Where I'm sort of stuck now is the sideboard. This is what I've been running:

    2 Dispatch
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Repeal
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Spellskite
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Twisted Image
    1 Wear // Tear

    Most of the choices are either very focused and powerful (e.g. Rest in Peace) or provide fairly broad utility (e.g. Echoing Truth). There are a lot of low cost artifacts in the mix, as they can help enable metalcraft early and can be picked up and replayed after a Retract to add to your combo. Hurkyl's Recall is Affinity hate that also works as a combo piece within the deck itself.

    Where I'm really hung up though is trying to make a plan against Burn. Eidolon of the Great Revel owns this deck and I'm not sure what the best way to combat it is. I've considered something like Leonin Elder, but I'd need to run multiples and it still seems a bit weak, though perhaps better in combination with Aetherflux Reservoir, if I wanted to make a "life gain" package to board in. Kor Firewalker seems like a reasonable option to buy some time. Leyline of Sanctity seems good against Burn, but not their Eidolon. I've even considered Wall of Reverence, which is frankly hilarious, as you can potentially gain boatloads of life by equipping a creature with all your shields, but the wall is likely too slow, being a 4 drop. Perhaps bringing in Dispatch to answer the Eidolon and something like Meddling Mage to preempt it is the proper course. Or I could try Runed Halo. Thoughts?
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 12-03-2016 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I am suprised you went with one Outcome. From my point of view, Outcome is the card that gives this deck more power. Until now, you depended too much on Paladin but now you have other options.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I am suprised you went with one Outcome. From my point of view, Outcome is the card that gives this deck more power. Until now, you depended too much on Paladin but now you have other options.
    Honestly, I've been considering cutting the Outcome altogether. I think a 4th Retract might just be better. It's a hard call, as I've not managed to lose after resolving an Outcome, but the deck is also able to combo off on turn 2-3, which is just faster than Outcome can come online. Maybe some number of Outcomes belong in the board (probably just a second copy, assuming one remains in the main) for match-ups where they just have too much creature removal. As for adding the 4th Retract, that's odd as well. You really want to see one copy, but they tend to chain into each other. That said, having the first one, which often turns into the equivalent of Ancestral Recall, basically wins you the game if you chain into another and have a Mox Opal in the mix.

    I've looked at a number of other lists for the archetype, particularly those that had placed highly in larger events, and I'm a bit surprised at the lists. Many weren't running Gitaxian Probe or Serum Visions. Instead, they would run Muddle the Mixture and Noxious Revival. I see the point of both of those cards, but Muddle feels incredibly slow. It may be more resilient, but having the cheaper cantrips allows you to combo more reliably and set up sooner. Noxious Revival is still on my list for consideration, but probably just as a copy or two to rebuy critical pieces if needed.

    So, current thoughts:

    -add the 4th Retract to the maindeck
    -consider adding a second Paradoxical Outcome to the sideboard
    -develop a cohesive plan to combat Burn

    *EDIT 12/3/2016 - I've cut the 2nd copy of Mass Hysteria and added the 4th Retract to my list above
    Last edited by CaptainTwiddle; 12-03-2016 at 10:12 AM.

  16. #16
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    This Pia's Revolution new card seems like it might be fun to try in this Mentor shell.

    http://www.mythicspoiler.com/aer/car...evolution.html

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Sometimes, you're just handed an auto-include.


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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Sometimes, you're just handed an auto-include.

    I think that is what we needed. I think that does it. This might actually be a thing now.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I think that is what we needed. I think that does it. This might actually be a thing now.
    I was actually really happy with the list I had prior to Sram being previewed, but he definitely adds a lot:
    -redundant combo piece
    -slightly easier mana cost (my list ran a single Island that occasionally caused some issues)
    -card draw engine that doesn't fold to Chalice of the Void
    -if you happen to have Sigarda's Aid in play, you can combo at instant speed

    I still think Puresteel Paladin is better in general, as the free equipping makes Paradise Mantle into a virtual mox (if not better with Mass Hysteria in play). I'll definitely be cutting my single Riddlesmith for Sram. I feel like I'd like to fit in a second copy of Sram, but I'm really not sure what I'd cut; maybe a Serum Visions or single piece of equipment.

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Pity he is Legendary.

    I think I want a 2 2 split of him and outcome. The thing that aways had me miserable was the times I couldn't find Paladin. This is really helpful.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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