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Thread: Paradoxical Paladin

  1. #21
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Pity he is Legendary.

    I think I want a 2 2 split of him and outcome. The thing tart always had me miserable was the times I couldn't find Paladin. This is really helpful.
    In my build with 4 Serum Visions and 4 Gitaxian Probe, I rarely had that hard of a time finding Paladin or a Mentor to by turn 3. Sram will definitely help with the consistency though. I still only run a single Paradoxical Outcome, as it's very mana intensive for my list, which only runs 15 lands. Outcome is still good, as I've not yet failed to win after resolving it, but it's usually more of a panic button than anything else, for games where all my Paladins/Mentors were immediately hit by removal. For that reason, I've been playing a second Outcome in the board.

  2. #22

    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Paradoxical Outcome is strong, and Paladin Decks running it are fine.

    But decks going that route need more interaction since the main combo piece is 4 mana. The original list with 4 Retracts has no interaction because it consistently wins on Turn 2 (especially now with Sram). If you want to play with all the original speed and insanity, Retract is the card you want. If you want to go with a slower list with multiple engines, Outcome. But if you're not winning on Turn 2, interact.

    4 Puresteel Paladin
    4 Sram

    4 Retract
    4 Noxious Revival
    2 Grapeshot
    1 Hurkyl's Recall

    4 Paradise Mantle
    4 Accorder's Shield
    4 Chathar's Shield
    4 Spidersilk Net
    4 Kite Shield
    2 Sigil of Distinction

    4 Mox Opal
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Hallowed Fountain
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Plains

  3. #23
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by serenechaos View Post
    Paradoxical Outcome is strong, and Paladin Decks running it are fine.

    But decks going that route need more interaction since the main combo piece is 4 mana. The original list with 4 Retracts has no interaction because it consistently wins on Turn 2 (especially now with Sram). If you want to play with all the original speed and insanity, Retract is the card you want. If you want to go with a slower list with multiple engines, Outcome. But if you're not winning on Turn 2, interact.

    4 Puresteel Paladin
    4 Sram

    4 Retract
    4 Noxious Revival
    2 Grapeshot
    1 Hurkyl's Recall

    4 Paradise Mantle
    4 Accorder's Shield
    4 Chathar's Shield
    4 Spidersilk Net
    4 Kite Shield
    2 Sigil of Distinction

    4 Mox Opal
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Hallowed Fountain
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Plains
    This certainly is an All In list. I think I still like the version with cantrips more, as it's less of a "mulligan to your combo pieces" build. I also like Monastery Mentor very much. I realize that Mentor doesn't really fit with the plan of trying to win on turn 2, but it definitely adds resilience.

    I'm planning on updating my list as follows:

    Puresteel Cheerios
    CREATURES
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    3 Monastery Mentor*
    1 Sram, Senior Edificer*
    SPELLS
    4 Accorder's Shield
    4 Cathar's Shield
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Mass Hysteria
    4 Mox Opal
    4 Paradise Mantle
    1 Paradoxical Outcome*
    4 Retract
    4 Serum Visions
    1 Sigarda's Aid
    4 Spidersilk Net
    1 Twisted Image
    LAND
    1 Island
    2 Plains
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Mana Confluence
    1 Sacred Foundry
    3 Seachrome Coast

    *I'd like to up the number of Sram, Senior Edificer to 2 or 3. I might cut the Paradoxical Outcome from the main for one and possibly a Monastery Mentor as well. I haven't tried out Noxious Revival yet, as it just seemed like a way to get back your Paladin if it got killed, but I'm realizing now that it's main function is likely to rebuy Retract. That makes me think I'd like at least a copy. So maybe I'll end up with 2 Sram and 1 Revival.

    My sideboard, which is far from settled, has been the following:

    2 Dispatch
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Fragmentize
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Paradoxical Outcome
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Runed Halo
    1 Silence
    1 Spellskite
    2 Swan Song
    1 Tormod's Crypt

    I'm tempted to try out Hope of Ghirapur. It's a solid play turn 1 that sets you up to combo securely on turn 2. That might make it better suited to the All In version, but I think it's worth consideration.

  4. #24

    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Datka talked me into 3 Mentor when I played my second GP with it, but now that Sram exists Mentor is unneeded, at least maindeck. Run 4 Sram. Always run 4. Do not run less for any reason.

    Cantrips are ok-ish, but you shouldn't be avoiding the strategy of mulling to your engine, because it's a winning strategy in this deck. Play 8 Paladins and mulligan hard.

    Noxious Revival only does everything forever. Recovers Paladin/Sram after removal, gets Retract or Opal mid-combo, manipulates the graveyards and topdecks as cute tech against Surgical, Snapcaster, Delver, and any number of other things. In a fetch-based deck it's your second land.

    Anyways, mulligan to Paladin or Sram. You have a 93% to see at least one by your mull to 5. And then they die before they finish shuffling.

  5. #25
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    serenechaos, do you think it's worth running a single Simian Spirit Guide? It would potentially allow you to combo off on turn 1 (the same would be true of Gemstone Caverns), but SSG also acts as another red source to cast your Grapeshot. Granted, when you start comboing, it's pretty easy to find your Mox Opals and Noxious Revival gives you additional rebuys. Also, I'm wondering if Twisted Image is even better in the All In list. When you're running Kite Shield in addition to the other Shields and Spidersilk Net, getting a Paladin's toughness up to 20 seems pretty likely. Of course, attacking for lethal would mean potentially winning on turn 3 instead of 2 most of the time, but it gives you game against something like Leyline of Sanctity, so maybe it's something for the sideboard.

  6. #26

    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    No, SSG is clunky and mostly unhelpful. Turn 1 wins will always be possible but near-mythical because the engine costs 2 mana. Any turn 1 win requires an opening hand with the engine, 2 mana sources, one of which can't be a land, equipments, and then you have to draw at least 2 or 3 more equipments and hit Retract AND Opal. Doesn't really matter what awesome card we're using for our second mana, the basic problem will always be the same.

    Plus SSG only casts turn 1 Srams (awesome but not worth a dead card) and Grapeshot, and you don't need any more mana sources to cast Grapeshot because when you're ready to do that you've drawn your deck.

  7. #27
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    With the release of Aether Revolt, Zac Elsik played CheeriOs to the top 8 of an SCG IQ on 1/21/17. Here's his list:

    CheeriOs
    CREATURES
    4 Puresteel Paladin
    4 Sram, Senior Edificer
    SPELLS
    4 Accorder's Shield
    3 Bone Saw
    4 Cathar's Shield
    2 Grapeshot
    2 Kite Shield
    4 Mox Opal
    1 Noxious Revival
    4 Paradise Mantle
    4 Retract
    2 Serum Visions
    4 Spidersilk Net
    2 Swan Song
    LAND
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Hallowed Fountain
    2 Horizon Canopy
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Plains
    2 Seachrome Coast
    2 Windswept Heath

    Sideboard
    1 Alley Evasion
    2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
    4 Echoing Truth
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    4 Silence

    I like a lot of what's going on here, particularly the copies of Horizon Canopy in the mana base; having that extra incidental card draw can be enough to push you over the edge and complete your combo. The inclusion of two Serum Visions feels very nice; it's a solid turn one play and the scry to remove lands/dead cards from the top of your library on your combo turn can be hugely beneficial.

    The sideboard choices seem pretty solid. Alley Evasion is a cute and unexpected piece of protection for Sram/Paladin. Burrenton Forge-Tender can come down on turn one and preemptively deny a Lightning Bolt that would fizzle your turn two combo. Echoing Truth answers pretty much all of the hate cards you're concerned about (e.g. Chalice of the Void, Stony Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, etc.). Leyline of Sanctity protects you from discard and edict effects, as well as other combo decks. That said, I'd really like to pick Zac's brain regarding his sideboard plan. I feel like I'd almost never want to board in 4 copies of anything. I think the numbers on all the 4's could be trimmed.

    I do question some choices/numbers though. I understand that Swan Song is cheap, effective protection, but there are times when it's just a dead draw. As for the equipment, I don't really get why you'd want to run x3 Bone Saw when you're not running a full set of Kite Shield. This list is not designed to attack for the win, so just having more pieces to boost a Paladin's toughness seems more sensible to me, though perhaps adding some power with the Saw could hold some opposing creatures at bay. I think only running a single Noxious Revival is a mistake. The primary role of Revival is rebuying Retract, but it can also get back a fetch land, thereby reducing the number of mulligans you'll need to take. and of course you can get back Sram/Paladin if it gets hit with removal.

    Cards that I'm still pretty high on that weren't included in Elsik's list:

    Sigarda's Aid - I've been running this as a 1-of in the maindeck. It allows you to pass the turn with your combo creature in play with the hope of reaching the next turn so you can untap and combo more easily, but gives you the ability to respond to removal. This is particularly nice with Sram, as you draw when you cast the equipment, so you can respond to a removal spell by casting an equipment and then, if your opponent responds to the draw trigger with more removal, you can respond with another equipment. That being said, since Grapeshot is a sorcery, this is only going to generate value and potentially set up a combo on the following turn. The other thing that Sigarda's Aid does is automatically attach your equipment to a creature, which is of significant value. Playing and attaching a shield at instant speed in response to a damage-based removal spell is a solid play. Additionally, having Paradise Mantle attach to a non-summoning sick creature gives you a free mana for the turn (particularly relevant when comboing off with Sram, since Paladin will let you equip for free). Perhaps Sigarda's Aid is better suited to the sideboard.

    Hurkyl's Recall - I'd really like to include a single copy in the maindeck, but would definitely want one or two in the sideboard. Recall works as an extra copy of Retract, but can also hose Affinity.

    Hope of Ghirapur - I haven't backed this one up with much testing yet, but my thinking is that it can come down on turn 1 as a preemptive Silence against decks where you'd want that effect. It's also an artifact, so it may help you turn on the metalcraft for a Mox Opal when you don't have a second land drop.

  8. #28
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    There are two other deck lists on Mtg goldfish. This looks like glorious fun. The cards I have liked the most have been Defend Grid and Favour of the Mighty. Two useful cards to stop some decks just piling us though the floor. Also while Outcome is now just bad in the main, I still like it as a sideboard option against decks that will kill our creatures over and over again.
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    I am missing a retract, so I tried the deck with 3 Retract and an Outcome. This thing feels unfair.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    ...This thing feels unfair.
    When it wins, it feels very unfair, but when you lose, it usually feels like you didn't even get to play. The hardest matchup I've had with it is Jund, as they just have so much spot removal. If they're running Fatal Push (which I really believe they should be), they have a lot of cheap answers. That aside, I think Cheerios is real thing. It's kind of disappointing to me personally, as the deck gets really old, really fast.

    Random aside, that doesn't really need to be expanded on too much here, is that it really won't surprise me if Mox Opal eventually gets banned. It's not the Cheerios deck specifically; almost every non-interactive combo list that I brew ends up running Mox. The fact that it really benefited from the change to the current incarnation of the Legend Rule really unbalanced it.

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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Run some outcome in the side, it lets you power through decks like Jund. Sure, they are going to hit you with discard and spot removal, but only Thoughtseize can take Outcome and removal is worthless against it. Also you are going to get time to cast it against midrange. I am playing some over Silence in the side right now.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  12. #32
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    Re: Paradoxical Paladin

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Run some outcome in the side, it lets you power through decks like Jund. Sure, they are going to hit you with discard and spot removal, but only Thoughtseize can take Outcome and removal is worthless against it. Also you are going to get time to cast it against midrange. I am playing some over Silence in the side right now.
    That's valid. I've also been playing around with a KCI/Eggs deck and, while slower than Cheerios, it's much more durable. One of the things that I noticed when playing that list is that having your key cards and other tools (like Thoughtcast) with CMC >3 is a real boon against decks playing Inquisition of Kozilek. I had always been playing a 4/2 splith between IoK and Thoughtseize in Jund/Abzan lists, b/c I felt like IoK was pretty much superior in most ways, but I'm starting to come around to a 3/3 split now.

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