Maro asking about Snow Duals fixing Legacy's RL issues

[non-inflammable]

And its still stupid, starting the logistics and insurance matter on hand over to card condition going further with talking duals out of circulation and ending up with having to reprint RL cards.

this entire thread was about getting duals into (packs) player's hands; because ANY card that wasn't a REAL dual wouldn't be good enough?
consider it an "elective exchange" of crappy white bordered duals for black-bordered ones. i can only play one deck at a time...
i'm not sure what else you're prattling on about...

[Dice_Box]

Two things.

A ten minute video on Macers Hot Coffee:
https://youtu.be/PAzMMKIspPQ

This thread is on a merry-go-round of little consequence. The idea is not to debate if the reserve list is a legal minefield, if it can be avoided or other such shit, the point of the thread is to discuss the impact and creation of new duals, if a solution was found to all known standing issues was found, would have on Legacy.

I feel like that topic has been canvassed and morphed into a topic on the reserve list proper, something that, ironically, was trying to be dodged when starting this talk. I wish to ask those of you who wish to talk about the list to please take it to the "Bitching about Reprints" thread. That I feel is its natural home.

[Crimhead]

The idea is not to debate if the reserve list is a legal minefield, if it can be avoided or other such shit, the point of the thread is to discuss the impact and creation of new duals, if a solution was found to all known standing issues was found, would have on Legacy.

Im going to make two assumptions:

1. RL staples (which do not see "suitable replacements printed) will continue to rise ove time ala Vintage staples.
2. WotC will continue to reprint non RL staples thus (more or less) stabilising these prices.

If Wizards does print duals which work around the list, two things can happen to the format:

1. Growth will stagnate altogether, and/or...
2. The format will continue to grow, but become more and more full of decks that dont need reserved list cards.

#2 would mean:

• D&T
• Merfolk
• Burn
• Manaless Dredge
• Other fringe/bad decks

All become grossly over-represented.

But if WotC prints work-around duals, that list of decks expands to include:

• All Delver variants
• Infect
• Jund
• Miracles
• Maverick
• Stoneblade
• Shardless
• UB Reanimator
• RB Reanimator

Obviously this is still not perfect - in particular the format would be lacking non-gy combo decks*. Still this is a vastly preferable scenario to the case where only four competitive decks are actually affordable.

Anybody who would object to these printings is pretty much putting monetary interests above the health of the game. Note I am not talking about "mass reprints". Rather printing these in similar quantities to Goyf, FOW, etc. Enough to stabilise prices around the $50-$150 range.

*Printing a substitute for City of Traitors (eg, destroy instead of sacrifice) would add S&T decks, Eldrazi, and Painter (assuming a Recruiter reprint) to the mix.

[Dice_Box]

I like that idea for City, you really do not want a ton of lands that commit suicide on you. I doubt many people would run more than 4.

[Crimhead]

I also dont buy the argument that these printings would hurt stores. Stores make money selling packs. Any store that needs to move $200-$300 duals in order to keep their doors open is probably doomed either way because the demand is simply not there.

Look at SCG. Why have they cut support for Legacy? Obviously because they are no longer making money off the format because too few people are buying these slow-moving outrageously expensive staples.

[RobNC]

Functional reprints will only hurt older cards to a point. ABUR duals, especially black bordered, will still hold a prestige and be worth a lot.

It can go two ways based on recent examples:

Show and Tell: Conspiracy 2 reprint caused Urza's Saga value to tank; original $60+, now close to $20 if you look hard, only $5-10 more than the CN2 reprint at mythic.

Berserk: Conspiracy 2 reprint can be had for $10 at rare, Unlimited version went from $90-100 to still $60-70.


I suspect a functional reprint such as snow duals would have a trajectory similar to Berserk in these two examples.


Berserk being much older allowed it to hold a lot more of its value.

[Crimhead]

It depends how they print them. There is a big difference between a rare in CN2 vs a mythic in EMA.

[MaximumC]

LIST O' DECKS

I think that list is a bit too narrow. Elves should be on it, for example. It was playable before Cradle was adopted bigtime, and it's still playable without it today.

The other thing I think that isn't represented here is the shift of the relative order of decks and how they are affected by new printings. The metagame waxes and wanes as things get printed. We've seen a renaissance in Death and Taxes recently, fueled by new printings. Who is to say that Pox or Chalice Stompy or something else won't stop being a "bad deck" entirely based on new printings?

Remember, one of Wizards' options (other than reprinting situationally better RL cards) is to print cards that are as powerful as but incompatable with those RL cards. Maybe, just better punishers; heck, we've seen how badly Show and Tell was punished by Containment Priest. Here are some more examples:a dual land without land types that had Wasteland's ability but only for other lands with two or more basic land types. Or imagine if Thalia 2.0 was only 1 mana for a 2/1 instead of what she is. Those kind of cards would push RL duals waaaay back in the format.

The point is that people (many in this thread!) view Legacy's problem as access to PARTICULAR DECKS when they should view the problem as access TO THE FORMAT. The top tables of Legacy of five years from now may look nothing like it does today. And, if they're full of new printings, then the problem IS being fixed.

[Lord Seth]

Do you even know anything about the lawsuit? The point was that the coffee was being served at temperatures of around 80-90 C and this was a standard for McDonalds coffee around that time. She was one of hundreds of people who had reported that they got serious burns from coffee. She asked for $10,000 to cover medical expenses and McDonalds offered her $800. Making it sound like she just got free money is just a tad insulting.

I thought she asked for $2,000, not $10,000.

[ParkerLewis]

I also dont buy the argument that these printings would hurt stores.

On that subject :

For my own part? I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose.

[...]

I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well. We both believe that this would benefit the long-term health of the game and that any temporary drop in value of specific cards would be balanced out by the increased interest in older cards and formats and a cyclical rise-in-value/reprinting of cards as needed.

- Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010 (link)

I remember these couple weeks as there had been massive hope at the time that this was finally it and that WotC would finally send the RL back to where it belongs, the garbage bin.

Whenever someone rehashes the horrible argument that this would hurt stores, well, feel free to point them to this article presenting the thoughts and arguments of actual storeowners.

I'd sig it if I could, but apparently it's too long, and it's not like I post that much anyway.

[dragonwisdom]

Sort of true. A larger firm doing a mass-action lawsuit might be feasible, as individual people don't have the luxury of spending tens of thousands of dollars to try to get a few thousand. Though if the lawyers take on all the expenses, a 40% cut of "a few thousand dollars" would not be close to enough to warrant their time. They'd have to get a lot of people together to demand a pretty high amount.

At any rate, even if such a thing is on the table, my point was that the scenario that was proposed was quite frankly ridiculous. The funny thing is that stores were mentioned when stores would actually not be particularly affected adversely by a Reserved List repeal. Remember that stores are constantly selling those cards, so they wouldn't be particularly hurt, if hurt at all, by a reduction in their value, unless the price crash is completely unexpected and happens extremely quickly; I can't think of any cases of that offhand. People either knew it was coming (a reprint) or it was gradual. Or both. So all you have to do is to reduce your buying price along with your selling price and you come out ahead still. That's what stores, at least the smart ones, do when a card's value is trending downward. A removal of the Reserved List just means they treat those cards the same as all the other cards, which for the most part they already do. Remember, they're constantly buying and selling, not just buying a card and planning to sell it months or years down the road. There was actually an article on Star City Games from quite a while ago going into how the removal of the Reserved List wouldn't cost them money and discussing things like the buying/selling price as a factor in preventing that, but unfortunately I can't remember where I saw it.

Also I can't help but feel that a store would have reservations about suing the company whose product brings them a lot of business. If anyone was going to try to file a lawsuit over this, it would be the speculators who just buy cards and product and sit on it, hoping for them to spike. A mass reduction in their assets would be more aggravating because they aren't selling the stuff constantly like a store. They might band together, as they'd be the ones most adversely affected and have no particular loyalty to WOTC. But again, to be able to claim a high amount that might be able to be worth it, you need to get at least a decent number of people together.

Though, of course, for a larger firm to take it, they would have to believe that it has at least a reasonable chance of winning to warrant spending all that money and time on the case. I'd actually be very curious to see any similar cases to this and see what the results were or the opinion of an actual lawyer who works in these kinds of cases.

Let's assume that Wotc has lawyers. Wotc since being bought from Hasboro is now a greedy corporation that is beholden to shareholders. If they could abolish the reserve list they would have done so already, because they are a greedy company and money is the driving purpose of the company. The reason they don't despite your arguments is over lawsuits. Agreed, I doubt that cheerleader stores like Star City will sue. The stores that would sue would be the ones going out of business or the ones losing their investments. Collectors would also sue. MTG finance people would definitely sue. I think that the lawsuits will be massive. This is where we disagree. You are welcome to disagree, but I think that Wotc lawyers have also made that determination based on the fact that the reserve list has not been violated. The secondary reason the reserve list exists is to instill confidence of MTG as a collectible. They need this confidence to overcharge the public on booster boxes.

Second. I am sure that your argument that massive reprints will never kill a collectible. This collectible card game MTG is all about confidence. Baseball cards from the mid 80s to 2000 are worthless because the companies got greedy and over printed. Had beanie babies not been produced to oblivion, they would still have collectible value today. It was a "Fad" because collectors lost confidence. They got a clue that their collections could just be reprinted to oblivion, so they stopped buying. People lost confidence in baseball cards and Beanie Babies as as collectible. MTG will always be a game that will be available in that it is as popular as any board game out there. But their ability to charge 90-100 dollars a box only lasts as long as you have confidence that the cards will have value over the long term. There is no way any person should pay 90-100 dollars for 540 cards of cardboard unless they have some confidence in value over the long term. You can either see that our you can't.

Stores need card prices to be high. That is how they make a profit. Contrary to popular belief, stores don't make as much money off sealed booster boxes as you would think, since most of you buy online and margins are thin. Many stores need to make money off selling singles to stay afloat. Everyone seems so concerned with Wotc making money. Players need to be more concerned about their own collections and the inventory of your store owner maintaining value.

As far as the lady with the coffee is concerned. If millions and millions of cups of coffee sold were all the same temperature and only a handful of people hurt themselves by spilling on themselves then I am unsure what the case is. Other than that, I mean if you don't do what is intended with any product you can hurt yourself. Did you know that you can burn yourself on a light-bulb when it is on? Did you know that a TV can fall on you if you climb on it? Did you know that you can cut your finger off with a saw or knife? Did you also know you can even drown yourself in a pool? See what I mean. If her coffee was hotter than all the millions and millions of cups of coffee sold, then I am in complete agreement with the jury. It's like a car defect. If a car is defective, from the millions of cars sold, the car company is at fault, when your hurt yourself.

[dragonwisdom]

Okay lets get this thread back on track.


What else could they add to the card that would get around the reserve list?

I like adding the card type "Epic" which is restricted to two as supposed to Legendary, which is restricted to 1?

[dragonwisdom]

or how about when snowcoverd tundra comes into play, you get a snowflake counter.

I am unsure what a snowflake counter would do, but it does change the card.

[Lord Seth]

Let's assume that Wotc has lawyers. Wotc since being bought from Hasboro is now a greedy corporation that is beholden to shareholders. If they could abolish the reserve list they would have done so already, because they are a greedy company and money is the driving purpose of the company. The reason they don't despite your arguments is over lawsuits. Agreed, I doubt that cheerleader stores like Star City will sue. The stores that would sue would be the ones going out of business or the ones losing their investments.

Stores wouldn't be going out of business because of the abolishment of the Reserved List unless they were run by idiots. The SCG article had a fairly good argument as to how stores would not be hurt.

Collectors would also sue. MTG finance people would definitely sue. I think that the lawsuits will be massive. This is where we disagree. You are welcome to disagree, but I think that Wotc lawyers have also made that determination based on the fact that the reserve list has not been violated.

Or simply desire to avoid bad press from a lawsuit, even if it's lost by the plaintiffs.

The secondary reason the reserve list exists is to instill confidence of MTG as a collectible. They need this confidence to overcharge the public on booster boxes.

One wonders how Pokemon and especially Yu-Gi-Oh are such massive hits, then. You can't keep insisting that this "confidence" is required for MTG to be popular when one can easily point to other popular TCGs that do not have a problem with reprinting expensive cards.

But their ability to charge 90-100 dollars a box only lasts as long as you have confidence that the cards will have value over the long term. There is no way any person should pay 90-100 dollars for 540 cards of cardboard unless they have some confidence in value over the long term. You can either see that our you can't.

Please explain how Yu-Gi-Oh, then, is able to charge similar prices for their boxes as Magic, despite constant reprints of expensive cards.

Before you object by saying Yu-Gi-Oh boxes are cheaper than Magic, they also contain fewer booster packs (36 vs 24). So let's compare them on that basis. On Coolstuffinc.com, a Kaladesh booster box for Magic will cost $94.99 and a booster box of the newest Yu-Gi-Oh set, Invasion: Vengeance, costs $59.99. But when we take the number of packs into account, that comes to $2.64/pack for Kaladesh, and $2.50/pack for Invasion: Vengeance.

People clearly are willing to spend about as much for Yu-Gi-Oh booster boxes despite lacking this critical "confidence" you insist is the only reason people would ever pay those prices.

Stores need card prices to be high. That is how they make a profit. Contrary to popular belief, stores don't make as much money off sealed booster boxes as you would think, since most of you buy online and margins are thin. Many stores need to make money off selling singles to stay afloat. Everyone seems so concerned with Wotc making money. Players need to be more concerned about their own collections and the inventory of your store owner maintaining value.

High card prices are not particularly useful when you don't have as many cards to sell, as is the case with the Reserved List.

As far as the lady with the coffee is concerned. If millions and millions of cups of coffee sold were all the same temperature and only a handful of people hurt themselves by spilling on themselves then I am unsure what the case is. Other than that, I mean if you don't do what is intended with any product you can hurt yourself. Did you know that you can burn yourself on a light-bulb when it is on? Did you know that a TV can fall on you if you climb on it? Did you know that you can cut your finger off with a saw or knife? Did you also know you can even drown yourself in a pool? See what I mean. If her coffee was hotter than all the millions and millions of cups of coffee sold, then I am in complete agreement with the jury. It's like a car defect. If a car is defective, from the millions of cars sold, the car company is at fault, when your hurt yourself.

People have repeatedly given you information and linked you to more information about the case. I'm not sure how you still seem in the dark about the details.

[ParkerLewis]

or how about when snowcoverd tundra comes into play, you get a snowflake counter.

I am unsure what a snowflake counter would do, but it does change the card.

There have been numerous examples of options already.

An example of sidegrade (sometimes better, sometimes worse, depending on gamestate) : When ~ ETB, each player Scrys 1
An example of a downgrade that is so insignificant I dare anyone to claim he/she would not be fully comfortable playing it over a standard dual : When ~ ETB, if you control 10 or more lands, reveal the bottom card of your library
An example of a functional reprint that technically isn't and thus gives the middle finger to the RL : When ~ ETB, roll the planar die
[Or just take a regular dual, and give it an additional "FURL" type which has no rules text attached]

The point is, coming up with "copies" of duals that could totally viably being used by players as replacements is not an issue no matter how you want to approach it. This is not a problem.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Or:

Snow-Covered Underground Sea

Swamp Island

For you control a card named Underground Sea, sacrifice Snow-Covered Underground Sea.

The main thing I have an issue with is getting to play 8 of the same dual land, or any prohibitively powerful card for that matter. That is where the issue becomes a problem for me.

I think my idea is flawed. I don't really want them allowed in the same deck at all because that kind of a redundancy is too powerful and a definite slippery slope that could ultimately undermine the Reserve List in the end. However, I still want a functional reprint.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[MaximumC]

Or:

Snow-Covered Underground Sea

Swamp Island

For you control a card named Underground Sea, sacrifice Snow-Covered Underground Sea.

The main thing I have an issue with is getting to play 8 of the same dual land, or any prohibitively powerful card for that matter. That is where the issue becomes a problem for me.

I think my idea is flawed. I don't really want them allowed in the same deck at all because that kind of a redundancy is too powerful and a definite slippery slope that could ultimately undermine the Reserve List in the end. However, I still want a functional reprint.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

A fine argument, but the ship sailed on that years ago. The moment they printed the comes-into-play untapped Fetches in Invasion, they gave everyone access to that redundancy. They doubled down on the same thing in Zendikar.

[ParkerLewis]

I don't really want them allowed in the same deck at all because that kind of a redundancy is too powerful

This has been beaten to death too. Can you name a somewhat known Legacy deck that would really want to play the full 8 ? I could see some decks considering playing a fifth dual, but that's about it. As MaximumC said, at this point fetches become a better option. The ability to go get a basic (or a different dual) is worth more than duals 5+.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This has been beaten to death too. Can you name a somewhat known Legacy deck that would really want to play the full 8 ? I could see some decks considering playing a fifth dual, but that's about it. As MaximumC said, at this point fetches become a better option. The ability to go get a basic (or a different dual) is worth more than duals 5+.

Not yet, but you do remember that LED was a crap rare for years, right? I didn't say now, but somewhere down the line, the condition will be met that breaks the situation and new issues will arise out of that. It's not currently a problem, but I think if you can have double the duals, you are asking for it.

Can you tap mana in response to a static effect? If not, all you must put is "As a land enters the battlefield under your control, if it is named Underground Sea, it enters the battlefield tapped, and sacrifice it as it enters the battlefield."

I'm sure that wording is nonsense and would need fixed, but the concept is closer.

[dr.philgood]

or how about when snowcoverd tundra comes into play, you get a snowflake counter.

I am unsure what a snowflake counter would do, but it does change the card.

Then they could make a card called
"join the club"
Each person with a snowflake counter sacrifices all snow permeanants they control, then loose all snowflake counters.
You are not special. You are not a unique or beautiful snow flake. Tyler Durdan- the mind sculptor