I built a control deck abusing wishclaw into Aminatou, the Fateshifter, you can tutor for her and then blink the claw, pretty fun stuff
"You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"
Yes, Brooding Saurian was essentially the best version of this kind of effect I could think of for a BG(x) deck, it's possible that there are others. (Like you could have other options that look slightly less stupid like Vraska Golgari Queen and then downtick to kill the Talisman, I just think the upside of Saurian is quite high in comparison, can't be e.g. killed by delver in a situation where the opponent is hellbent, etc. But maybe there is something better I'm not thinking of)
Putting Saurian in the deck is just a contingency for situations where your opponent has stopped your combo by e.g. plow/counter your Witch/Apprentice and both players are very low on resources and you happen to topdeck Wishclaw. The primary use of wishclaw is still to assemble the smog combo, or tutor for protection for it etcInteresting points. All I meant about Brooding Saurian is that I think the wording around it being 'free' was a little misleading. You still have to pay at least 4 mana, 5 is more likely due to silver bullet status, and it makes lines of play easy to disrupt. Diabolic Intent is 1) 1 mana cheaper than Talisman, 2) doesn't require the risk of giving opponent's a tutor, 3) doesn't require you to put a 5-mana 4/4 into your deck to make the synergy work, 4) Intent actively supports your primary game plan of sacrificing Veteran Explorer to ramp mana while giving you something to do with that mana. I understand that Wishclaw can grab Brooding Saurian and solve some of those issues, it just looks really underpowered for Legacy. You're adding another combo to a combo deck, hoping you keep the Talisman/Saurian for another turn to do your thing. Even if you accomplish that you still need to assemble Smog + Apprentice. I don't discount the idea, I'm just not sold on it yet. I don't think Legacy can handle such inefficient combos (mana + time-wise.)
Another stupid thing you can do is if your opponent redirects your chain of smog back at you then you can use Claw to response tutor for Nullhide Ferox or Obstinate Baloth (or Veil I guess)
Id rather board into the Crop Package if it's that relevant for combo MUs.Crop Rotation for silver-bullet lands to fight combo matchups can be seen as card disadvantage if you want, but Karakas and Bojuka Bog both carry a lot of weight in the matchups where you want them. The incidental ability to have access to Phyrexian Tower more consistently for explosive early turns is really the secondary purpose. Crop Rotation isn't for fair matchups and can easily be sideboarded out for relevant cards. Nic Fit is a dog to combo decks, always has been, and adding a combo that is potentially slower than others doesn't solve your problem.
The math on -1 card for Crop Rotation to +1 mana from Tower doesn't really make too much sense to me especially when there aren't cards like Rectors in the list that give you a super strong extra incentive to have extra ways to sac stuff
Yeah possibly, I'm not against itI still think Abundant Harvest is a good option for a dig spell if your plan is to go so deep into the combo. It's cheap at only one mana and guarantees you what you want, either a land to develop or a spell to push your game plan forward. Mid-late game it will be pure gas.
That's a fair assessment. I always played it maindeck in the old days x2 because it enabled faster Siege Rhinos and Thragtusks in non-blue matchups. Losing a card wasn't a big deal when those fatties dominated the board or put me out of storm10/Marit Lage-1-hit range. Having access to Karakas maindeck was pretty important as Depths was a poplular deck at the time. It was pretty easy to sideboard into Bog/Ghost Quarter, too.Id rather board into the Crop Package if it's that relevant for combo MUs.
I'm pretty skeptical about this Smog combo as well, for a couple reasons (maybe unreasonably): if it targets an opponent, you just take the 2-card hit and don't die. If it targets themselves, you just wait until they are hellbent and THEN remove the Apprentice. It's not actually a clean kill. I know there is discard to fight that, but it still seems 'meh'. I like the BUG lists that just get incidental value out of Apprentice as a fair card, casting Ponders/Forces/Daze/Abrupt Decay and then have ways of making sure the combo goes off if they draw it. Maybe that is super narrow-minded, but for me it will take some time to see if it truly becomes part of the legacy metagame beyond that.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Yeah so basicallyI'm pretty skeptical about this Smog combo as well, for a couple reasons (maybe unreasonably): if it targets an opponent, you just take the 2-card hit and don't die. If it targets themselves, you just wait until they are hellbent and THEN remove the Apprentice. It's not actually a clean kill. I know there is discard to fight that, but it still seems 'meh'. I like the BUG lists that just get incidental value out of Apprentice as a fair card, casting Ponders/Forces/Daze/Abrupt Decay and then have ways of making sure the combo goes off if they draw it. Maybe that is super narrow-minded, but for me it will take some time to see if it truly becomes part of the legacy metagame beyond that.
- Because you can't do the combo if you smog your opp and they don't redirect it back at you, and in plenty of situations you will not have one of the magecraft creatures but still want to use all pieces of the buffalo, you want to be playing a deck that is happy to use smog as 1B mindrot
- Because (as you point out) your opponent can wait for you to hellbent yourself before interacting, you can't protect the combo with counterspells, and therefore playing smog as a combo/control deck a la Splinter Twin seems awkward
Id rather play it as like a BGx midrange kind of deck, that can just play a generic thoughtseize/beater plan vs combo decks, and against fair/controlling decks can find and push a combo kill before it gets ground out by Uro.
The reason why the shell of Veteran Explorer BGx and not any other kind of BGx is because I think cabal therapy is good with sedgemoor witch / magecraft triggers.
I think using the combo in a phoenix shell is potentially okay as well but that's not a deck where the Mindrot mode of Smog is particularly desirable
Here is an automatic 1 of in any Nic Fit lists that play GSZ...
Grist, the Hunger Tide
1BG
Legendary Planeswalker - Grist (starting loyalty 3)
As long as Grist, the Hunger Tide isn't on the battlefield, it's a 1/1 Insect creature in addition to its other types.
+1: Create a 1/1 black and green Insect creature token, then mill a card. If an Insect card was milled this way, put a loyalty counter on Grist and repeat this process.
-2: You may sacrifice a creature. When you do, destroy target creature or planeswalker.
-5: Each opponent loses life equal to the number of creature cards in your graveyard.
3G to GSZ out a planeswalker that sacs your explorer/Rector and kills an opposing creature or planeswalker is some incredible value.
It seems scariest in elves as a gszable permanent plague engineer answer.
Ignoble Heirarch {G} Creature – Goblin Shaman
Exalted
{T}: Add {B}, {R}, or {G}.
0/1
Jund Nic Fit just got an excellent 1 drop. Supplements GSZ/Explorer as solid 1 mana ramp spells we can utilize.
Between this, Explorer, Cabal Therapy, GSZ and Thoughtseize, this allows us to have 12-16 solid turn 1 (generically useful 1 mana plays), which should definitely help the deck’s velocity.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 05-26-2021 at 11:28 PM.
Loved this build. What happened with it? Do you still think this gameplan has merit?
Or is Chain of Smog combo strictly superior? I love that every card in the build above had utility by itself whereas Chain of Smog is mostly dead without the other combo piece, and can be a liability even when trying to combo off.
You can see how it goes here.
It seemed like it durdled too much. You might want to put the life combo back in, but infinite life is a huge pain on MTGO.
I really like this build of the deck but subtracting some of the mana dorks and either a removal spell or a TNN to add 1 Baleful Strix, 1 Bayou Groff and 3-4 Veteran Explorer…
https://youtu.be/brXGsZwODG8
Such a sweet list.
How did you feel about the choice to cut all the once upon a time for multiple bayou grof? I felt like that was a mistake that weakened the deck.
Its a shame that BoshNRoll didnt get to play this build of the deck. Bosh is an amazing player and makes way fewer play mistakes, even when piloting decks he is unfamiliar with.
If Ragavan gets banned, I think this deck style has potential.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 12-07-2021 at 03:47 PM.
I am currently working on making Nic Fit viable in Modern using a shell like this…
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Oath of Nissa
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Carth the Lion
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Wrenn and Six
1 Light Up the Night
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Ignoble Hierarch
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sarkhan the Masterless
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
SB://
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Torpor Orb
1 Void Mirror
1 Walking Ballista
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Could Carth work in Legacy Nic Fit in combination with Minsc & Boo? Minsc & Boo are down to $5 now. If anyone could make that card work. Its the people in this thread :)
What are the best 3-5cc Jund planeswalkers after Lily and Minsc & Boo in Legacy?
Last edited by Clark Kant; 06-10-2022 at 02:00 AM.
Very cool list and discussion here, recently 5-0ed
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-9oCn4HcAPI
2 Bayou
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Castle Locthwain
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Chain of Smog
2 Deadly Brew
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Elder Gargaroth
4 Endurance
1 Eternal Witness
1 Forest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Karakas
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Mountain
2 Ob Nixilis, the Adversary
3 Opposition Agent
3 Sedgemoor Witch
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Vivien, Monsters' Advocate
3 Witherbloom Apprentice
3 Wooded Foothills
SB:
1 Collector Ouphe
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Paradox Zone
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Veil of Summer
Bosh and Roll pointed out that Ob Nixilis sucked, and doesnt justify the red splash and the deck should stick with GB and increase the Chain of Smog and Witch count.
I agree. If red were to be splashed, it should be for Minsc & Boo, not for Ob Nixilis.
Seems pretty dead here. Anyone playing nic fit anymore?
I play Dredge usually. I got rolled at my local store by a list similar to the following (from MtGTop8 https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=36380&d=473985&f=LE):
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Endurance
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Outland Liberator
1 Questing Beast
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shifting Ceratops
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Witherbloom Apprentice
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chain of Smog
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
3 Nurturing Peatland
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wasteland
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Constant Mists
2 Dismember
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
ThrabenU played a BG list that leaned into Grief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CLztEpNj1U
Main (60)
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Witherbloom Apprentice
4 Endurance
3 Opposition Agent
4 Grief
1 Questing Beast
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
4 Feign Death
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Chain of Smog
2 Bayou
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Castle Locthwain
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Collector Ouphe
3 Veil of Summer
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Paradox Zone
Minsc & Boo, Green Sun’s Zenith and Endurance are the three best things to be doing for a grindy green deck with lots of mana in legacy. I think any nic fit list should be maindecking multiple copies of those cards. Minsc is insane value (creates two must deal with permanents every turn) and Endurance is one more answer to our weakest matchups, fast combo (oops all spells, doomsday) and delver while also being a solid beater and surprise blocker against aggressive decks. Zenith is incredibly flexible and useful at every stage of the game.
Most recent lists have opted for Chain of Smog and Witherbloom Apprentice but this is an all in combo that is very easily disrupted in a deck without either Force of Will or Thoughtseize to protect it (Cabal Therapy isnt enough to protect a combo in current Legacy).
Here is the Nic Fit build that I believe has the highest probability of success in the current meta…
//Core Cards
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Endurance
3 Minsc & Boo
//Zenith Package
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Ignoble Hierarch
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Fiend Artisan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Questing Beast
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
//Flex Slots
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Once Upon A Time
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin’s Trophy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Opposition Agent
//21 Lands
//Sideboard
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Alpine Moon
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Veil of Summer
1 Run Afoul
1 Endurance
1 Choke
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Force of Vigor
1 Plague Engineer
1 Leyline of the Void
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 10-08-2022 at 09:09 AM.
If you want to kill Depths, Delver, SnT, and Reanimator then it's probably better to run Run Afoul over that many Alpine Moon.
Fair point. I edited and updated the sideboard. Alpine Moon is also great against Urza’s Saga though.
Edit: Noted that I made a typo when describing Minsc and Boo in my post above. It creates two powerful threats the turn it comes out, not every turn.
Also, as good and flexible and always useful as Lightning Bolt and Once Upon A Time are, it probably makes sense to replace them in the list I posted above with additional utility creatures like Ramunap Excavator, Grief, Opposition Agent, Plague Engineer, the 4th Endurance or Shelodred the Apocalypse. Fiend Artisan can tutor up any creature including black ones like Opposition Agent, Grief, Plague Engineer and Shelodred, all of which have utility as ways to shut the door against combo decks if Cabal Therapy and Endurance buy you enough time to slam down some disruptive creatures.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 10-09-2022 at 03:50 AM.
Dauthi Voidwalker and Oppo Agent are excellent distuptivr threats we should probably play.
Don't want to be the guy who posts every random green rare creature but:
I don't exactly know that it's better than other cards the deck could play but it seems very interesting mainly due to its interaction with Grist.Zask, the Swarmlord 3GG
Legendary Creature - Insect
You may play lands and cast Insect spells from your graveyard.
Whenever another Insect you control dies, put it on the bottom of its owners library then mill 2 cards
{1}{B/G}: Target Insect you control gets +1/+0 and gains deathtouch until end of turn.
5/5
- You can cast Grist from graveyard with this
- Can cast Grist from graveyard then play dryad arbor from graveyard to sac to Grist
- You can cast as many Grist from graveyard as you have the mana to pay for them and keep making tokens / destroying creatures or PW. They aren't insects on the battlefield so when they die from legend ruling themselves they don't cause Zask "put on bottom of library" ability to trigger.
Then there are some more fringe interactions like
- Can play Scute Swarm from the graveyard then play a land from the graveyard to trigger the landfall ability. (Scute seems like an EDH card but gets out of control pretty fast if your opponent doesn't have a sweeper, makes tokens to sac to grist)
- With the "put on bottom of library" ability on the stack you can activate Volrath's Stronghold to put the creature on top and mill it back into your graveyard again (could be good with a insect you want to loop like Caustic Caterpillar or something).
- Can also use Volrath's Stronghold to stack the top of your library so when you +1 Grist you get 2 tokens
- If you have an insect with Flash (Skylasher?) then you can re-cast the insect from your graveyard with the "put on bottom of library" trigger on the stack.
- Swarmyard? Lul
Seems good with Grist Sun Zenith
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)