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Thread: [DTB] U/R Delver

  1. #841
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Wait, what's failwhale? If you mean Ethereal Forager, there are 0 copies.
    Saw 3 in first list.

  2. #842
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Saw 3 in first list.
    So you didn't read the post, you just looked at the first list and reacted?
    The first 2 lists were examples of recent results. The 3rd list is the deck I proposed. The thread is called Ragavan and the first list has none....

  3. #843
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    So you didn't read the post, you just looked at the first list and reacted?
    The first 2 lists were examples of recent results. The 3rd list is the deck I proposed. The thread is called Ragavan and the first list has none....
    I always think the list at the top is most recent lol; looking at your list now...
    -You don't need to play bad cards anymore. Delve-Dragon not only answers Goyf, it reverses advantage back into your favor. Dismember never again.
    -Expressive Iteration is just Night's Whispers or Predict or AK or Painful Truths, etc... Divination-clone doesn't age well, particularly if anyone challenges your mana. Here today, gone tomorrow. You're also up against a very short clock where DRC users will realize Invasive Surgery still exists and is a "super innovative" mirror breaker.
    -I think DRC and Delver are not best friends, and your list chooses one of them, which is correct. I don't think most players understand that 10-12x 1-drops shreds their hand and topdecks off of relevant interaction. The DRC users are, in general, trying too hard to make it work (sabotaging Delver flips with Bauble, etc).
    -Your list is missing at least 2x Delve-Dragon. I am looking harder at 4th Iteration rather than 2nd Brazen, since your deck kinda needs to be able to answer E-Bridge.
    -4th Sprite Dragon or 4th Ragavan is probably on the excessive side.
    -As terrible as the Pyrokinesis or Guy'rokinesis are, you do have a lot of red you can pitch, when it comes to SB ideas.
    -Prefer 8th Fetch over 4th Volc since Delve-Dragon is a thing to be doing.

  4. #844
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I always think the list at the top is most recent lol; looking at your list now...
    -You don't need to play bad cards anymore. Delve-Dragon not only answers Goyf, it reverses advantage back into your favor. Dismember never again.
    -Expressive Iteration is just Night's Whispers or Predict or AK or Painful Truths, etc... Divination-clone doesn't age well, particularly if anyone challenges your mana. Here today, gone tomorrow. You're also up against a very short clock where DRC users will realize Invasive Surgery still exists and is a "super innovative" mirror breaker.
    -I think DRC and Delver are not best friends, and your list chooses one of them, which is correct. I don't think most players understand that 10-12x 1-drops shreds their hand and topdecks off of relevant interaction. The DRC users are, in general, trying too hard to make it work (sabotaging Delver flips with Bauble, etc).
    -Your list is missing at least 2x Delve-Dragon. I am looking harder at 4th Iteration rather than 2nd Brazen, since your deck kinda needs to be able to answer E-Bridge.
    -4th Sprite Dragon or 4th Ragavan is probably on the excessive side.
    -As terrible as the Pyrokinesis or Guy'rokinesis are, you do have a lot of red you can pitch, when it comes to SB ideas.
    -Prefer 8th Fetch over 4th Volc since Delve-Dragon is a thing to be doing.
    Ok, these are good and relevant points. Thanks.

    Yeah, playing Dragon's Rage Channeler here was not even a consideration. Delirium pulls the deck too far in a different direction. You need enough spells to flip Delver. You need enough protection and interaction to connect with Ragavan. Artifacts and more 1 drops do nothing to help that plan, just making your other 1s worse. Sprite Dragon at least goes big and flies over nasty ground blockers. Would rather have that over more conditional 1s that rely on different conditions.

    Expressive Iteration is a step up from the other Divinations: 2 mana, no life lost, pick best 2 of 3 cards, not conditional on board presence or GY. It's harder for the opponent to challenge than the others, leaving fewer vulnerabilities, though Invasive Surgery is one and the DRC Delirium decks will definitely play it. Until then there's minimal risk.

    The lower fetch count is due to 0 Delve guys (in the current build), but that would of course change with Murktide Regent (Delve-Dragon).

    4 Volc was because T1 Ragavan openers want to be played with Volc (not a basic) so you have the threat of Daze up for their turn 1 play. If they spend their turn Wasting your Volc, they're attacking the wrong resource. Ok, we both have 0 lands, Ragavan gets a free card, I get a Treasure and use it to cast the free card or a cantrip into lands. Seems bad for you. So I'd rather have access to that Volc than worry about Wasteland blowouts in a 2-color deck with probably lower curve than the opponent. Replacing 4th Volc with a blue fetch doesn't reduce that consistency much, other than some minor increase in losses to Stifle. Without any Delve guys I went for the fewer losses to Stifle (which has a spike in popularity). But with Regent, running more fetches is unavoidable.

    Realistically with Delve-Dragon the deck may need to go back up to 19 lands with 9 fetches, like the Whale builds play. That fights for space with nonland cards. I was trying to avoid that, but maybe it's just better. One idea here and in UR Prowess is to get a minor edge from not needing as many lands, then converting those extra bolts/counters to help damage get through (slightly more aggressive plan). I wanted to avoid running extra lands just to cast a big dumb thing that trades 1-for-1. Needs testing.

    Without Regent, my plan against Goyf was similar to UR post-DHA ban. Postboard you have 2x Borrower, 2x Submerge, and the old tech of Relic of Progenitus to keep Goyf in check. The Delve builds can't really exploit multiples of Relic. Delve-less can. Relic keeps Goyfs small and also attacks enemy Delve creatures (Angler, Mandrils, Whale, Regent), Escape strategies (Uro), Delirium strategies (which should see a spike in play), and Maverick fatties (Knight, Reclaimer, Scooze). Conveniently that covers most of the midrange fatties that go big over UR. A lot of fair decks depend on the graveyard now, so Relic can attack both combo and big fair threats with no downside if UR is Delve-less. The other way to attack Goyf is through mana denial (Daze+Wasteland). Goyf sees the most play from RUG Delver. Wasteland+Surgical on Tropical Island shuts them off all the fat threats at once. I admit these are all more flimsy answers than just making your own bigger flying Goyf, but they do have the advantage of taking up less tempo, not leaving you open to graveyard attacks, and letting you exploit Relic asymmetrically.

    Guy'rokinesis seems bad. UR Delver is not hardcasting a 5-drop 95% of the time, so it's just Pyrokinesis of the wrong card type to help your creatures. Pyrokinesis doesn't really make the SB as is. What matchups does Pyro blowout more than Blazing Volley, enough to be worth pitching a Bolt or creature? Maybe the pitch guy would help vs Hogaak (also kills Bridge).
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2021 at 02:04 AM.

  5. #845
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    It's not really about Pyrokinesis being the missing effect, as much as having extra Ragavan [legendary] rotting in hand and wanting some form of compensation. This kind of approach also gives Ragavan text vs a Karakas your may not have the exact tools to currently answer in a given boardstate. It's about using the whole buffalo.

  6. #846
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    That's a good point. With more testing, I may end up cutting down to 3 Ragavan due to Legendary. Pyrokinesis is another way to get value.

    I see the card kind of like Goblin Lackey. Even though topdecks and multiples are bad, you want 4 to maximize seeing it on turn 1 because you are so far ahead if the opponent lets it connect. The extra copy in hand isn't necessarily bad. If you have an unanswered Ragavan, you're probably ahead and generating cards to compensate for the dead one in hand. If they answer the first one though (or ever tap out Karakas), you can Dash the 2nd for immediate value. Then opponent is stuck holding up resources in case you decide to Dash again. Dash is what pushes this card over the top for me.

  7. #847
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    I mean the clear problem with the design is that Ragavan should definitely make a trigger to sac itself at EoT if it hits a player. (so if you dash you get him back, otherwise 1 mana Ragavan kills himself)

  8. #848
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Yeah, the combination of the Lackey mode and Dash mode is overpowered. Just one of them would be more balanced. Until they correct it, might as well abuse it.

    I forgot the most hilarious answer to Goyf. Submerge it, attack with Ragavan, then cast their Goyf. All possible off 1 land. This works against stuff like flash-Coatl too. SB might need 3rd Submerge for maximum trolling of Forest decks.

  9. #849

    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Kinda ironic that Ragavan makes Brainstorm even better. (so you control what he exiles from the top)
    “Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

  10. #850
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Has anyone seen this video posted on reddit?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m_X5NQhIXw&t=1440s

    The monkey looks good.

    I think playing Young Pyromancer with Ragavan is a mistake. Look at those board states where neither can attack into a blocker. Ragavan's biggest weakness is a ground blocker you can't remove. YP just makes you go -1 hand size to lose to the same blocker or lose harder to Blazing Volley and friends. And then your deck is full of 2/1s that struggle to finish off the opponent, relying on Delver as the fatty! Sprite Dragon seems like the much better 2 to go with Ragavan. It flies over things that stop Ragavan and helps clock the opponent.

  11. #851
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    YP is a legacy has-been. Mongoose saved him a seat at the tavern alongside Werebear.

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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Looking at the interaction vs Karakas, it's not as bad as I thought. Ragavan basically turns into Rishadan Port that doesn't cost you a land drop. You can either tap 1 and use it to tap their Karakas, or you can not tap your land and they still don't get mana from Karakas (forced to hold it open to play around Dash). This is not a terrible mode in a deck already playing mana denial and low curve. It might even be correct to Wasteland a Caverns (D&T) or dual over the Karakas to tie up their mana and then hit their 2s and 3s with Daze while you develop the rest of the game plan.

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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Two 3-1s from the Prelim:
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-06-05#excel_-
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...5#itisunfair_-

    Both are on DRC + Delver + Ragavan. One is doing it with Ethereal Forager still (instead of Murktide) and 0 Baubles.

    One has Forked Bolts, which seems good while all these new X/1s are popular.

    To make room for all the creatures they cut maindeck Borrowers, which I think is a big mistake. Having no answers at all to some card types seems like a problem. They've also cut down on FoN and Wastelands, so the deck overall loses interaction with the opponent just to play more like an aggro deck building threats.

    Edit: DRC's weaknesses are really exposed vs cards like Endurance, where it's forced to suicide attack into a reach blocker or they can flash it to remove Delirium at instant speed. Surgical Extraction can also turn it into a 1/1 after it was forced to attack, then you can block and kill with anything. So far I still prefer the monkey + Sprite Dragon.

    Sideboard might need 2 Meltdown since Esper Sentinel is a thing people will play now.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2021 at 02:07 AM.

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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    1st place today's Challenge: https://twitter.com/stainerson/statu...539456/photo/1

    This guy appreciated the power of 4x Monkey. Also running Forked Bolt to wreck the mirror, Esper Sentinel + Thalia, etc. Big fan of this list.


    //Lands: 18
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain

    //Creatures: 15
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
    3 Murktide Regent

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Forked Bolt
    4 Expressive Iteration
    4 Daze
    1 Force of Negation

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Submerge
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Abrade
    4 Pyroblast
    1 Blazing Volley
    1 Meltdown
    2 Null Rod
    1 Grafdigger's Cage


    Big difference was he just went full 12x 1 drop with DRC (but without wasting space on Bauble) instead of Sprite Dragon. Seemed to work for him. With Expressive Iteration and Ragavan, maybe the risk of running out of cards is minimal despite dumping out all these 1 drops.

    The SB adapted well to Affinity: Meltdown + 2 Null Rod, on top of the usual Abrade.

    For a general meta I don't like this whole 0 Borrower thing. It makes the deck much softer to Chalice @ 1, Depths, and other things UR struggles to interact with. But for this event with 50% UR Delver and hype for Affinity, this is probably a good meta call.

    Edit: Forgot to include Wasteland
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2021 at 10:44 AM.

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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    I think you missed 4x Wasteland? Real dangerous configuration with 12x 1-drops, which is haven't seen since Shadow with DRS and Delver. You just kinda die on the spot to Chalice. The SB does a decent job accounting for this, but the 2nd Null Rod probably needs to go towards this structural weakness.

  16. #856
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Yeah, I missed Wasteland. Just fixed that.

    Pre-MH2, with UR Delver (with and without DHA) I ran 2x FoN, 2x Borrower, and 2x Abrade. That gives answers to Chalice @ 1. Otherwise the deck has always been weak to it (even if you have 2 drops like Sprite Dragon, it isn't doing much when you can't resolve 10x cantrip 6x Bolt). His version goes down to 1 FoN, 0 Borrower, and then in the side 2 Abrade + 1 Meltdown: less interaction with Chalice, especially in game 1. I don't like that overall, but it may have been a metagame choice for that event. If he built to beat the UR mirrors and Affinity, his choices do accomplish that and the results back that up.

    He faced 6 UR mirrors and beat them all. His SB strategy for the mirror was -5 Force +4 blast +1 volley, so having only 1 FoN and 0 Borrower main makes it easier to have an optimal configuration vs UR postboard.

    A few comments up I proposed +2 Meltdown to deal with these Esper Sentinel decks. That was because Meltdown not only attacks Affinity but also addresses the Chalice @ 1 vulnerability. For a more general meta, I'd go with 2 Meltdown 1 Null Rod instead of the other way around. It didn't matter in this event though.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-07-2021 at 11:59 AM.

  17. #857
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    I guess the question though is, should we merge this thread with the UR Delver one we already have?

    I'm kind of thinking this isn't really a total fundamentally new deck, it's just optimizing threats really (and of course, some answers).
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I guess the question though is, should we merge this thread with the UR Delver one we already have?

    I'm kind of thinking this isn't really a total fundamentally new deck, it's just optimizing threats really (and of course, some answers).
    Yes, this should be in the UR Delver thread. Sorry.

    I looked for a UR Delver thread before posting this and couldn't find one, but maybe I only checked DTB and Established without using the Search function to go further back. It's ironic I was the last person to post there and still forgot the thread existed.

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    Re: UR Ragavan aka Just Monkeyin Around

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yes, this should be in the UR Delver thread. Sorry.

    I looked for a UR Delver thread before posting this and couldn't find one, but maybe I only checked DTB and Established without using the Search function to go further back. It's ironic I was the last person to post there and still forgot the thread existed.
    Not a problem at all, sometimes I can't find a thread after I literally just moved it.

    Carry on with the monkey-business.
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  20. #860
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    Re: [DTB] U/R Delver

    Christ man...is there a reason to play any other colors now?

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