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Thread: [DTB] U/R Delver

  1. #501
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I have started working with a good friend of mine on UR Delver trying to develop the deck farther. I could have something new to show off soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
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  2. #502
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    Re: 4 UR Delver Decks in Hareruya T16

    Quote Originally Posted by tora-kun View Post
    I recently switched to this build and I can say with full confidence that this is by far superior to ANY UR Delver build in the current meta.

    The deck:
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    3 Chain Lightning
    4 Force of Will
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Polluted Delta
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Mountain
    2 Island
    4 Ponder
    4 Wasteland
    2 Gitaxian Probe
    2 Young Pyromancer
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Stifle

    4 Surgical Extraction
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Forked Bolt
    2 Abrade
    1 Price of Progress
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    1 Divert
    1 Spell Pierce

    I played 2 leagues, went 3-2 and 5-0 before I realized that this deck was absolute gas and I needed to gather data. So today I played 3 more leagues and kept the data:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

    Just to give a little background, I've played all the flavors of delver, was really good at RUG maybe 4/5 years ago I play on and off and recently came back to playing magic again.

    What makes the deck good:

    Grim Lavamancer
    In a meta full of Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer is king. In Grixis mirrors where you both have DRS, its a subtle dance for who gets mana/life. With Lavamancer, there's no dance, they either kill the lavamancer or lose their whole board.
    I used to board 1 Lavamancer in my Grixis Delver deck just for this reason.

    Basic Lands
    Not getting wastelanded out of the game is a great feeling. It does inconvenience you sometimes when you brainstorm and you look at your other land and you wish it was something else. But you know whats more inconvenient? Not having lands.

    Stifle
    This hits a lot of stuff besides fetch lands.

    The deck plays like RUG(the stifle build) except you have basics and grim lavamancers. You're losing Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose and neither is very good right now. You have more reach instead thanks to chain lightnings & Snapcaster Mage.

    On the differences to the prowess builds, when playing the prowess creatures, I often had situations where you cant really trigger prowess on your turn(hand full of counters) or you draw them late and they're garbage.

    On grixis, losing Deathrite is pretty big, but the tradeoff is Lavamancer, which beats opposing Deathrites. Gurmag Angler is also a card that is hard to stop, unless you have a live Lavamancer, in which case its merely a bolt away from dying. Your only real problem is TNN, which you also play, and you play stifle/daze/waste so getting to resolve a 3 mana spell should be pretty difficult. It does hurt the reanimator matchup so I play 4 surgicals in the side. That said I've played 4 BR reanimator matches and lost only 1. Dredge should be kinda bad though.
    Thank you for the response! Meta-influenced rationale is what I was looking for :). I've been testing a very similar version of the deck, but with main-deck Spell Pierce instead of Stifle. I think I'm going to give Stifle a try, and I know it's going to feel great getting someone on a storm trigger or a fetch activation!

  3. #503

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Hey guys, I will play a couple of big tournaments in January. This is the build I will play:

    Main deck:
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    3 Stormchaser Mage
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Bedlam Reveler
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Fireblast
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    2 Mountain

    Sideboard:
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Price of Progress
    1 Blood Moon
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Hydroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Pyrostatic Pillar
    1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    2 Smash to Smithereens
    1 Abrade
    1 Sulfuric Vortex

    My sideboard is designed to make my bad matchups better such as Stoneblade, D&T and Storm and ignore the ok to decent matchups. I do expect a lot of these decks and and since my matchups against most of the blue decks are fine (except Reanimator) I focus on the really bad ones. After playing UR Delver for a while now I realized that certain cards like Batterskull, Chalice of the Void, Punishing Fire or simply Storm just destroys UR because our gameplay is strictly monotonic and we are missing flexible cards like better Removal, Counter, Discard and Wastelands. This is the reason for focusing on these decks in my board. Also to add on my build:
    1. Bedlam Reveler is probably the most insane creature in this build. Reveler rescued my ass sooo many times by drawing 3 new cards. In the past I played the original list with 2 Revelers -1 TNN -1 Lavamancer +1 Chain but I was missing a Lavamancer main and since Reveler doesn't harmonize good with Lavamancer I added an other TNN.
    2. I play 3 Chain and 1 Lavamancer split instead of 4 Chain like the classical list. Lavamancer is also quite underestimated. He shuts down a lot of decks like Burn (their creatures), D&T and is also pretty strong against all Shaman builds since he generates a removal spell for their Shaman or 2 damage out of nothing (having cards in your GY is in this deck not a problem at all). The time I play Lavamancer the opponent always Force of Will it or removes it instantly, I think its way better than the 4. Chain Lightning. I would actually like to play 2/2 split between Chain and Lavamancer but since its not working out with Reveler that good I keep them both at 1 (maybe I will test it with 2 Revelers and 1 Lavamancer main deck and cut the TNN). The rest of the list is standard. Against most of the decks I can board at least 4 cards which I think is good. Here the way I probably board:

    - Storm: +2 Flusterstorm +1 Eidolon +1 Pillar +2 Surgical +1 Hydroblast -2 PoP -1 TNN -4 Daze (Daze will not counter anything since Storm always has the mana to pay it right?!)
    - Death&Taxes: +2 Smash +1 Abrade +1 Vortex -4 Daze or FoW (depends whether I'm on the play or not) -> Here you can think about taking out PoP also, depends which lands I see. Its not worth to keep for 3-4 Rishadan Ports and 4 Wateland, if I see Karakas and Cavern of Souls I keep them)
    - Stoneblade: +2 Smash +1 Abrade +1 Vortex +2 Pyroblast -Daze or FoW -1-2 Gitax Probe -> also depends which version of Stoneblade and what I saw on the board allready
    - Burn: +2 Flusterstorm +1 Hydroblast -2 PoP -1 FoW
    - Grixis Delver: +1 PoP +1 Blood Moon +2 Pyroblast +1 Vortex (I still test that card against Grixis) -4 FoW -1 Probe
    - 4c Control: Probably the same as Grixis Delver
    - Reanimator: +2 Surgical +2 Flusterstorm +1 Vortex -1 TNN -1 Reveler -1 Lavamancer -2 PoP -> if its a blue Reanimator list I can think about Pyroblast also. Still Pyroblast does not have a proper target since all their reanimate spells are black so I am not sure about it. Vortex helps against Griselbrand not having lifelink, I outraced a lying Griselbrand once with a T3 Vortex followed by T4 double Bolt and double Swifstspear attack (was 10 damage with Vortex wich was enough).
    - Sneak Attack: +2 Flusterstorm +2 Pyroblast +1 Hydroblast +2 Surgical -2 PoP -1 TNN -1 Lavamancer -3 Gitax Probe

    I am not really sure how good my board works against decks like Elves, Goblins, Eldrazi, Dredge and other Rouge decks. I tried to focus on the decks which are played alot. Also are my board decision good against Storm or do I always keep the Daze postboard? How about Stoneblade? I am not this experienced against these 2 deck types. Would like to have some feedback :)

  4. #504
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    I have started working with a good friend of mine on UR Delver trying to develop the deck farther. I could have something new to show off soon.
    This is a list I have come to based on my friend's list. There are a few differences and I will explain some of my card choices and why I think those cards are good.

    List
    Creatures
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Soul-Scar Mage
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    3 Stormchaser Mage
    2 Bedlam Reveler

    Spells
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Preordain
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Force of Will
    4 Daze

    Lands
    1 Arid Mesa
    2 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain

    Since this deck is still a work in progress, I have decided I would not take too much to developing the sideboard until I have a solid main deck. This list is built to go on the "Zoo" plan that UR Delver can employ, however current lists just don't do it enough.

    The purpose of Preordain in this list is to provide more ways of finding an early threat so we can begin to pressure our opponent. Preordain also helps us keep the cantrip train rolling when we have prowess creatures in play which in turn also increases the potential of very explosive turns.

    Price of Progress is often icing on the cake. We don't need it. Price of Progress is also terrible from behind, especially when your opponent is committed to playing around it.

    Force of Will can often drag us down. Having Force stuck in your hand with nothing to do with it is pretty terrible, due to most of your threats being pretty anemic in a vacuum. I am not sure about only 2 Forces in the main, just because of stuff like Chalice of the Void being a card that just shuts us down and combo decks also being a thing. What you do gain from cutting Forces is a much faster clock, which still gives you game against combo.

    For those of you who have a taste of my opinions on this deck you likely know that I strongly believe Reveler is not a main deck card. The biggest problem I have with Bedlam Reveler is that it is fairly unreliable. It can sometimes be very difficult to cast, and sometimes it will be pretty easy to just cast it while curving out and just throw gasoline on the fire that is already burning. I believe this list has the capability to reliably cast Bedlam Reveler, because you are just casting most of your spells, and you will be able to churn through your deck with cantrips and find requisite mana, and fill up the graveyard fairly quickly and quite reliably with all those cantrips.

    I play a lot of Delver and a lot of different styles of Delver, and when building my Delver lists, I generally do not go any more than 14 creatures in the main deck. I realized that UR Delver already has a higher chance of flipping Delvers just due to the higher count of fetchlands in the deck and the lower count of total lands. This has led me to believe that you could likely get away with playing a 15th creature in the deck, which I am evidently trying.

    My friend did not send me a list with Bedlam Reveler in the main deck. I decided to take his list a step further and try to make Bedlam Reveler a main deck card in his list.
    Friend's list for reference
    Creatures (14)

    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Monastery Swiftspear
    3 Stormchaser Mage
    3 Soul-Scar Mage

    Spells (29)

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Daze
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Preordain
    2 Force of Will

    Lands (17)

    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Polluted Delta

    Sideboard (15)

    2 Abrade
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Force of Will
    2 Submerge
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Price of Progress
    1 Bedlam Reveler

    Now, let the discussion begin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  5. #505

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Hey TheManWithaPlan, honestly I don't think you need 11 cantrips and an other 4 Gitaxian Probe. With a cantrip in general and especially Ur Delver you should always ask yourself: "What do you wanna find?" either Burn, creature or a counter spell in rare cases. And this where I think Ur Delver just shines compared to other Ux Delver decks, finding Burn or creatures always seem to work fine for this deck. You dont need that much of cantrips because the gameplan of Ur is just so straight forward, Id rather have a card in hand which actually does something than a cantrip. Also playing Ponder and finding more Brainstorm, Preordain or Gitaxian Probe just doesn't seem right. I still like having a full playset of FoW in the deck. Often we play against Ub Reanimator, Sneak Attack, Food Chain or Aggro Loam and FoW is just a card we must have against combo and Chalice of the Void, especially pre board. You can go down to 3 FoW but I doubt 2 will be enough. After playing this deck now for a longer time we often loose pretty easy against unfair decks, Ur Delver is just missing a lot of flexibility so FoW is necessary to stay in the game sometimes. The point with Price of Progress is: It always hits for 4 damage which is nice. But the fear of PoP and the pressure opponents have to play around PoP makes it even better. My opponent constantly thinks about getting PoP in his face so he will keep his Wasteland untapped to sac it without a target when we have basics on the board (against D&T for example). Just for that I would keep 1-2 in the deck. About Soul-Scar Mage: It's just Swiftspear in worse. There is no need in to add it. I tested it and always hated it and I even played with Grim Lavamancer to make some tricks on the board. But Soul-Scar Mage is just not good enough. Slow and comes for 2, I really think its a weak card. I do see sometimes that problem with Stormchaser Mage, 2 mana for a 2 damage beater most of the time. But since Stormchaser is flying it does its damage consitstently so Stormchaser is still acceptable. Also you add an other 3 cantrips + an other land? I really dont like the list mate

  6. #506
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    Hey TheManWithaPlan, honestly I don't think you need 11 cantrips and an other 4 Gitaxian Probe. With a cantrip in general and especially Ur Delver you should always ask yourself: "What do you wanna find?" either Burn, creature or a counter spell in rare cases. And this where I think Ur Delver just shines compared to other Ux Delver decks, finding Burn or creatures always seem to work fine for this deck. You dont need that much of cantrips because the gameplan of Ur is just so straight forward, Id rather have a card in hand which actually does something than a cantrip. Also playing Ponder and finding more Brainstorm, Preordain or Gitaxian Probe just doesn't seem right. I still like having a full playset of FoW in the deck. Often we play against Ub Reanimator, Sneak Attack, Food Chain or Aggro Loam and FoW is just a card we must have against combo and Chalice of the Void, especially pre board. You can go down to 3 FoW but I doubt 2 will be enough. After playing this deck now for a longer time we often loose pretty easy against unfair decks, Ur Delver is just missing a lot of flexibility so FoW is necessary to stay in the game sometimes. The point with Price of Progress is: It always hits for 4 damage which is nice. But the fear of PoP and the pressure opponents have to play around PoP makes it even better. My opponent constantly thinks about getting PoP in his face so he will keep his Wasteland untapped to sac it without a target when we have basics on the board (against D&T for example). Just for that I would keep 1-2 in the deck. About Soul-Scar Mage: It's just Swiftspear in worse. There is no need in to add it. I tested it and always hated it and I even played with Grim Lavamancer to make some tricks on the board. But Soul-Scar Mage is just not good enough. Slow and comes for 2, I really think its a weak card. I do see sometimes that problem with Stormchaser Mage, 2 mana for a 2 damage beater most of the time. But since Stormchaser is flying it does its damage consitstently so Stormchaser is still acceptable. Also you add an other 3 cantrips + an other land? I really dont like the list mate
    Honestly, the current prowess oriented versions of UR Delver are somewhat underwhelming to me at the moment. There is an evident problem with those lists in that the creatures are not great alone, and I have trouble getting enough pressure early enough to press an advantage. The games where UR Delver actually looks like a good deck is when it has its "Zoo" draws. The trouble I have is that traditional UR lists just don't have the "Zoo" draw consistently enough. Your threats being bad in a vacuum doesn't help this much either. This list aims to maximize the consistency of these "Zoo" draws occurring. I also feel that if I am able to reliably cast Bedlam Reveler in the main deck, I have fixed the problem of my threats being fairly bad in a vacuum. Extra cantrips are mostly meant to find your threats and try to get the zoo draw as many times as possible. Honestly a Soul-Scar Mage misses the first 2 points of a Swiftspear. I tried it a while back and I really liked it in the deck. If Czech Pile wasn't as popular, I would be playing Soul-Scar in the stock prowess lists. I was skeptical of this list at first of this list. I suggest you try it, don't be quick to dismiss it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  7. #507

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I actually played Zoo back in 2009-2010 in 1.5 and Extended (Modern nowadays) where blue was not that OP and Zoo was the best aggro beat down deck at this time. I do get your point, T1 Delver followed by Swiftspear and an other Delver in T2 and the rest Burn is the best hand you can draw. Zoo played exactly like that. I think what Ur Delver does better compared to Zoo back in the days is that its a Counterburn deck, you can actually stop unfair decks which Zoo always had bad matchups against. So the mix between being and aggro deck with Burn spells but also quite enough counter to stop unfair decks is where Ur Delver is. And cutting FoW and Burn for an other sorcery speed cantrip is just not good enough. Also I tested Soul-Scar Mage before, it really was just a bad one drop which has no place in a format next to Deathrite Shaman and Delver imho. I also agree on Ur Delver being quite underwhelming sometimes. This is actually why its not Tier 1 and as long as Deathrite Shaman stays in 1.5 Ur Delver will not become Tier 1 except they print another crazy card for that deck. I remember that one game against Reanimator which my opponent had Griselbrand on the board and he was on 2 life. I just needed any Burn spell to kill him and played Ponder, found land, Stormchaser and Brainstorm, still had a fetchland in my hand, took the brainstorm, played my fetchland to shuffle, played Brainstorm to find Delver, Probe and Ponder again. And my list plays 10 burn spells. I really don't see how more cantrips are making this deck any better. If the creatures wouldn't have Prowess I would get rid of the Gitax Probes and add even more Burn spells, but Probes really do work well with Swiftspear and Stormchaser and also in the Pyromancer builds.

    I also think that Ur Prowess lacks a lot of consistency. Thats why I'm moving away from Prowess a little bit and try Ur Pyromancer. Dont have a list yet since I cannot decide between Wasteland and maybe 3 Stifle and on the other side Price of Progress.

  8. #508
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME View Post
    I also think that Ur Prowess lacks a lot of consistency.
    This is my point exactly. I honestly don't mind cantripping into oblivion with 2 prowess creatures on board. It just means I get to go off again next turn with all the cards in my hand. A lot of times I have lost are due to me not being able to find enough creatures to press an advantage. This isn't a burn deck, we can't win the game by resolving 7 bolts. The Preordains are meant to find my creatures on turn 1 and turn 2 at the latest there should be a creature on board. The extra Preordains are meant to mitigate the number of losses I take due to not drawing enough creatures. This deck wins with creatures supplemented by burn spells that can finish the opponent off. The purpose of this list is to try to mitigate the consistency issue with UR Delver by adding more creatures and ways to find our creatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  9. #509

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    @IamHANDSOME:
    I hope for some charted course action if you go down the pyromamcer route, maybe some TNN for another reliable attacker? I think it was Bob Huang or Jarvis Yu who pilotted a list that splashed a single usea for sideboard therapies since combo in general is a bad matchup.

  10. #510

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    This is my point exactly. I honestly don't mind cantripping into oblivion with 2 prowess creatures on board. It just means I get to go off again next turn with all the cards in my hand. A lot of times I have lost are due to me not being able to find enough creatures to press an advantage. This isn't a burn deck, we can't win the game by resolving 7 bolts. The Preordains are meant to find my creatures on turn 1 and turn 2 at the latest there should be a creature on board. The extra Preordains are meant to mitigate the number of losses I take due to not drawing enough creatures. This deck wins with creatures supplemented by burn spells that can finish the opponent off. The purpose of this list is to try to mitigate the consistency issue with UR Delver by adding more creatures and ways to find our creatures.
    Yeah I really do get it. But adding more cantrips into that list will not make the deck any better in general. Just some Prowess creature in particular. Thats why I said Ur Delver is just not Tier 1 right now. It lacks at least 1 other consistent beater like Delver. All the other builds have Deathrite Shaman and this guy is the most powerful 1 drop creature in Legacy right now. If Ur Delver makes anything better than Grixis or other Delver decks then its Burn and especially PoP. If I cut the Burn spells allready and try to make just Prowess creatures more powerful and consistens, I rather play a different deck with more powerful and consistent creatures in the first place.

    I hope for some charted course action if you go down the pyromamcer route, maybe some TNN for another reliable attacker? I think it was Bob Huang or Jarvis Yu who pilotted a list that splashed a single usea for sideboard therapies since combo in general is a bad matchup.
    I was also thinking about this but when adding a b-splash you can just go down the road furher and where do you end up? At Grixis again I am still a huge fan of Grim Lavamancer though, I know he isa consistent pinger and does in the right deck almost the same as Deathrite Shaman (obviously with waaaay less flexibility). Tomorrow I will test this build against Burn, Grixis and Sneak Attack and let you guys know about it:

    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Young Pyromancer
    2 True-Name Nemesis
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    3 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    1 Forked Bolt
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Wasteland

  11. #511
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    @IamHANDSOME Thanks for the discussion on this list. I appreciate the feedback! Although I don't full agree with you on some points I am glad we were able to see both sides of this argument. I do ask that anyone who wishes to discuss this build of the deck actually try it, so that we can all have a solid understanding of the deck rather than just theorycrafting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
    The patient Brainstormer always wins.

  12. #512

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    @IamHANDSOME Thanks for the discussion on this list. I appreciate the feedback! Although I don't full agree with you on some points I am glad we were able to see both sides of this argument. I do ask that anyone who wishes to discuss this build of the deck actually try it, so that we can all have a solid understanding of the deck rather than just theorycrafting.
    Tomorrow Ill test the Pyromancer list I sent above and hopefully after christmas I will get to yours list ;)

  13. #513
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Hello everyone,

    I recently tested a build based on the list Bob Huang played back with Treasure Cruise just with Chart A Course instead:

    Lands (18)
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    2 Volcanic
    1 USea
    4 Wasteland
    7 U Fetches
    1 R Fetch

    Creatures (12)
    4 Delver
    4 Swiftspear
    4 Pyromancer

    Spells (30)
    4 BS
    4 Ponder
    4 Probe
    4 Chart A Course
    4 Bolt
    2 Forked Bolt
    4 Daze
    4 FoW

    I also have a SB with red blasts, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle and other hate. The black splash is for 2 Cabal Therapy and eventually Surgical, although in these MUs life usually don't matter.
    Despite the list was straight forward, results were underwhelming. Chart a Course doesn't work well with Swiftspears Prowess trigger and Sorcery speed for 2 Mana wasn't the same as a Treasure Cruise at all (no surprise here). The deck is simply not fast enough to outcompete Midrange decks featuring DRS and Leovold or TNN and Knight (at least you can chump block).

    I agree with previous posts about Prowess lists being inconsistent. I came to the same conclusion that DRS needs to be dealt with right away and a possible inclusion will be Lavamancer as it also fights Thalia, which is super annoying to spent your removal on.
    I can also see that each alteration of the Prowess list, which moves away from a Burn style deck, need to have some sort of advantage to choose over traditional Grixis. This is mainly your mana base. Playing basics is a huge upside and enables Blood Moon. Your own Wastelands imporve Daze and possible Spell Pierces as long as mana dorks are taken care of.

    I will also give a more mid-game oriented Young Pyromancer build a try, with a coupld of TNNs as well as MD Jitte to see if this deck can have an edge against Grixis and Leovold lists...

    Thanks for keeping this threat alive and all the input over the last couple of month!
    Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!

  14. #514

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    @BigBopper:

    How is Chart a Course working out with Prowess? Its kind of the opposite you want right? And why only 2 creatures? Maybe cut the Swiftspears, add 2 Lavamancer and 2 TNN for it and a single Snapcaster and I can see the Chart a Course with much better value.

    To all:
    Since Uw Miracles is getting better, what are board cards against it for Ur Delver? How is this matchup anyway? Anybody tested it before and wanna share their board and experiences?

  15. #515

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I've toyed around with the following list a bit

    14 lands:
    4 scalding tarn
    2 polluted delta
    2 bloodstained mire
    1 island
    1 mountain
    3 volcanic island
    1 underground sea

    14 creatures:
    4 swiftspear
    4 delver
    4 pyromancer
    2 TNN

    32 spells:
    4 FoW
    4 Daze
    4 gitaxian probe
    4 brainstorm
    4 ponder
    4 chart a course
    4 bolt
    4 lightning

    sideboard:
    2 grim lavamancer
    4 cabal therapy
    2 smash to smithereens
    1 pithing needle
    2 surgical extraction
    2 flusterstorm
    2 pyroblast

    Tried it against a bunch of decks in the practice room before deciding whether to give it a shot in a league. Decided against it after around 10 matches. I admit this deck might need 1 more land and the sideboard might not be ideal, but I still recognized the serious flaws this deck still has: It requires too much synergy while not having good answers against common threats like strix and chalice, but also counterbalance, TNN etc.
    I won two matches against burn and lost a bunch against br reanimator and 4-strix-midrange, but mostly against miracles which currently has a second rising on mtgo, now again with counterbalance.
    That matchup is seriously nigh unwinnable, even with TNN.

    So how has chart a course been? Two words: Clunky and underwhelming. Ask yourself: Would you play Night's whisper in UR delver if it was 1u? I think no even though the black sorcery would be better. Drawing these cards is just too big of a tempo loss, it makes this deck so slow it now has to compete with all these value-decks. The fact that you can't use the card as a draw-2 when looking for a new threat is also really annoying since it's our threats that get countered, removed and discarded on sight.

    I'm back playing with deathrite shaman...

  16. #516

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    I won two matches against burn and lost a bunch against br reanimator and 4-strix-midrange, but mostly against miracles which currently has a second rising on mtgo, now again with counterbalance.
    That matchup is seriously nigh unwinnable, even with TNN.
    How is the miracle matchup? What makes it THAT bad? What cards would you like in the miracles matchups to board in?

  17. #517
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    You definitely want Sulfuric Vortex against Miracles. Lavamancer is another strong card in that MU.

  18. #518
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    I agree to Chart a Course being cluncy, primarly since it's a sorcery. Prowess isn't the biggest drawback-I'm happy to attack with Swiftspear and fake a spell or two in my hand to do a point of damage and play Chart post combat. Just drawing into Swiftspear with Chart is an issue.

    I came to the same conclusion and replaced the Swiftspears with Lavamancers and TNN (2 each). Maybe going down to 3 Charts and adding a Jitte or Snapcaster is worth a shot. I'll give it a try and post my results.

    Regarding Miracles MU: Resolving Winter Orb against Miracles is a blast, Vortex is fine and I can even see a single Cavern of Souls (naming Human) for Delver, Pyromancer, Lavamancer and Snapcaster.
    Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!

  19. #519

    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Well I think if you do play with Chart a Course, you aren't playing "UR Prowess", I think the card is great, but like many saw here, you are talking about a different shell, getting out of combo going to a midrangish shell. I think both are bad against Miracles, but being more midrange gives you more gas to fight the late game where UR Prowess is very soft to early wipes. I still prefer UR Prowess because of the style of the deck, and that one I don't play Chart, I think even though Miracles MU is worse, I still feel the UR Prowess list better against 4c Control and Grixis Delver which are 2 very played decks, I guess its more of a preference to what you want to play.

  20. #520
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    Re: [Deck] U/R Delver

    Looks like U/R Delver took down the SCG Classic yesterday with a Prowess + Reveler/Serpent list:
    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118082
    I don't know for sure whether they played out the top 8 since sometimes that doesn't happen after a long Classic, but a cool result nonetheless!

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