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Thread: [DTB] U/R Delver

  1. #61
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by paradigm72 View Post


    Last night I had a fun 4-0 MTGO League run going, and was up a game in the 5th match, but ended up losing a hearbreaker to Miracles' blind CB flips to miss the perfect run :/. My luck had to run out at some point against Miracles, had won the last 5 in a row in that matchup. I'm considering some spice like moving a Sulfuric Vortex to the main given how slanted the MTGO meta is (played Miracles 40% of the time in my last 10 matches).
    Hey!

    Congrats on your results! I've just bought UR on MTGO because I had all the cards and spent just a few tix. Do you think Miracles is a good mu for us? How do you usually approach it? Thanks a lot!!
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  2. #62
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    Re: U/R Delver

    I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

    The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by pateuglow View Post
    I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

    The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.
    I am not sure if we have the luxury of countering Top. I think we need to fight CB and Mentor. I might be wrong though. I am running needle/null rod for Top.

  4. #64
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by pateuglow View Post
    I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)

    The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.
    I feel that you have the right idea but I don't really care to counter Top unless I can Daze it. Otherwise there are only 2 cards I see worth countering; Terminus and Counterbalance. As for Mentor/Entreat, if your game plan is going well your opponent should not have the luxury to try to make these cards relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Agree, I'm not sure I'd even Daze a top, but that's pretty hand dependent. The power of Top scales, it's not particularly good in the early game but a beast in the late game. UR is an aggro deck, you're looking to mitigate its power by killing the opponent. Counterbalance is by far the scariest card in the MU imo.
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  6. #66
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    Re: U/R Delver

    I think my approach to Miracles is a little unorthodox - I play it as an all-out blitz, and am willing to commit 3 creatures to the board more often than not (especially on the play, or virtually on the play if they have to waste their T1 on something like a Ponder). Typically I am looking to throw as much damage at face as possible early on, and rely on having 1x Force of Will for a Terminus on turn 3 or so to get over the hump.

    In the post-board games, I'm bringing in Vortex, Null Rod, Sulfur Elemental, Exquisite Firecraft. All of these allow dodging Counterbalance in them mid-to-late game, provided I was able to knock them down to ~8 or below in the early rush. I also find Price of Progress is still very strong against Miracles; I'm usually leaving in 2x because I find they often can't play around it completely and have to take 4 or 6 from it during or after some critical stack battle.

    Lifetime I am 10-6 against Miracles with this deck, at a mix of MTGO/weeklies/SCG/GP. Since I started playing the matchup super aggressively around last September, I'm 8-2, with one of those losses against the recent Challenge winner Mzfroste. I'm probably getting some luck here, but it's enough that I feel happy to see the matchup across the table.

  7. #67
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    Re: U/R Delver

    I like that 'blitz' plan with creatures a lot, the more time you give them the more card selection they'll have and have the answers for every creature. If you can cash them in for damage early, do it and try to finish it off with burn to the dome.

    I've not tried Firecraft actually, seems fantastic, need to pick some of them up!
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: U/R Delver

    Hey, y'all, been testing this deck for the past couple weeks and have grown to really enjoy it. I like that it is favorable against all the three-color decks, and I'm 50/50 against Miracles and DnT (but could probably improve these win rates with more practice and a more tuned 75).

    I've got some questions about the 2-drop slot. Stormchaser Mage is one of those cards that's been hard to evaluate for me. I like its evasion in the face of all these TNNs and the fact it can pitch to Force of Will, but often it feels like it attacks for one and dies to one-drop removal (including Pyroblast, which is on the rise), costing me valuable tempo. I've been very impressed by Swiftspear, though. It looks like 3 copies of Stormchaser is the number people have settled on. What's everyone else's take on the card? I assume Young Pyromancer has been tested and deemed inferior, right?

    (Also, Thunderous Wrath ... I'm in love.)

    Thanks!

  9. #69
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by theMonster View Post
    Hey, y'all, been testing this deck for the past couple weeks and have grown to really enjoy it. I like that it is favorable against all the three-color decks, and I'm 50/50 against Miracles and DnT (but could probably improve these win rates with more practice and a more tuned 75).

    I've got some questions about the 2-drop slot. Stormchaser Mage is one of those cards that's been hard to evaluate for me. I like its evasion in the face of all these TNNs and the fact it can pitch to Force of Will, but often it feels like it attacks for one and dies to one-drop removal (including Pyroblast, which is on the rise), costing me valuable tempo. I've been very impressed by Swiftspear, though. It looks like 3 copies of Stormchaser is the number people have settled on. What's everyone else's take on the card? I assume Young Pyromancer has been tested and deemed inferior, right?

    (Also, Thunderous Wrath ... I'm in love.)

    Thanks!
    YPs belong to another strategy. Unlike Grixis tempo, we are closer to an all-in deck.

    Stormchaser mage is not some strictly "stronger" card. However, as prowess guy No.5-7, he significantly increases the chance of having multiple prowess attackers in play, "upgrade" the triggers.

    Imagine that...if Monastary Swiftspear was never printed, would we still run Stormchaser mage in this deck? I think I won't.
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  10. #70
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    Re: U/R Delver

    I'm surprised how many people don't counter SDT - I always assumed it was one of the most powerful cards against us. It enables the instant speed/0 mana investment to set up a Terminus on our turn, it enables CB (which is MUCH worse without SDT)

    For me, I can understand the 'blitz' mentality on the play, but committing 3 creatures to the board on the draw seems risky

    This is all G1 of course, I think our SB games are a little different.
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by pateuglow View Post
    I'm surprised how many people don't counter SDT - I always assumed it was one of the most powerful cards against us. It enables the instant speed/0 mana investment to set up a Terminus on our turn, it enables CB (which is MUCH worse without SDT)

    For me, I can understand the 'blitz' mentality on the play, but committing 3 creatures to the board on the draw seems risky

    This is all G1 of course, I think our SB games are a little different.
    If I have the chance to counter a SDT, I will. SDT makes Miracles run smooth.

    Speaking of sb-cards: would Exquisite Firecraft be a good choice? More Burn-oriented sb.
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  12. #72
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
    If I have the chance to counter a SDT, I will. SDT makes Miracles run smooth.

    Speaking of sb-cards: would Exquisite Firecraft be a good choice? More Burn-oriented sb.
    I think that's reasonable for sure, as it's good in a few matchups.

    If it was just for Miracles I'd probably pass
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  13. #73

    Re: U/R Delver

    If you ask Miracle players about 95% of them will tell you that they think it's wrong to FoW a SDT. Having played against UR Delver with Grixis (stifle) Delver a ton I agree, but maybe it's a bit different here. My gut though would tell me that it's fine if they waste their mana topping.

    Since I recently purchased my Scalding Tarns to be able to play Badlands in Grixis I decided I might as well build UR Delver since it's sometimes just a great metagame call and the cards to complete it cost me like 1 ticket (mtgo is awesome sometimes). I'm running a fairly standard list:

    Lands (16)
    4 scalding tarn
    4 polluted delta
    2 bloodstained mire
    3 volcanic
    2 island
    1 mountain

    Creatures (13)
    4 delver
    4 swiftspear
    3 stormchaser
    1 clique
    1 reveler

    Spells (31)
    4 ponder
    4 brainstorm
    4 probe
    4 bolt
    4 lightning
    2 PoP
    1 fireblast
    4 daze
    4 force

    Sideboard (15)
    2 Rough/Tumble
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Price of Progress
    2 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Sulfuric Vortex

    Any thoughts on Vendilion Clique instead of the second Reveler? From the few games I played I really only ever wanted one. Unlike the stifle versions I usually play the clique also seems awesome, especially since it helps against the tougher combo-matchups. Really the reason I built this deck is to have access to 8 bolts and Rough/Tumble, that card scares the shit out of me every time I play with Grixis. The relic is there because I wanted another gy-hate, I figure I'll take out reveler in those matches anyways. I remember it also being annoyingly good against Tarmogoyf and DRS decks.

    Something I'm yet not sure about is the Miracles matchup. How many bolts should I leave in? Since they want their pyroblasts is there a good chance PoP will still deal 4+ damage or would you rather keep in a bolt? Daze certainly is not great, but I feel we need every freaking counter we can get in a fight over CB. So far I think about:

    -4 chain lightning
    -2 PoP
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Flusterstorm
    +2 Sulfuric Vortex

    Relic I think is propably only good in theory and is propably too durdly and not worth the card overall.

  14. #74
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    Re: U/R Delver

    @Agrippa91: welcome! Perhaps you are right regarding not countering SDT, but maybe it all depends on certain situations. I will say that a counter-war isn't the way to go, that's for sure. Countering a CB would be awesome as well.

    Regarding Clique: I don't know. What I do know is that I'm playing 4 Delver/ 4 Swiftspear/ 4 Mage and just one Reveler. I never felt comfortable playing two. I can see dropping him entirely if there would be better creature to fit this deck. I'm not sure, but I can see myself playing YP as two of as well. It would give a better late game in case of a failed 'blitzkrieg'. Let us know how Clique works out for you.
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  15. #75
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa91 View Post
    Any thoughts on Vendilion Clique instead of the second Reveler? From the few games I played I really only ever wanted one. Unlike the stifle versions I usually play the clique also seems awesome, especially since it helps against the tougher combo-matchups. Really the reason I built this deck is to have access to 8 bolts and Rough/Tumble, that card scares the shit out of me every time I play with Grixis. The relic is there because I wanted another gy-hate, I figure I'll take out reveler in those matches anyways. I remember it also being annoyingly good against Tarmogoyf and DRS decks.

    Something I'm yet not sure about is the Miracles matchup. How many bolts should I leave in? Since they want their pyroblasts is there a good chance PoP will still deal 4+ damage or would you rather keep in a bolt? Daze certainly is not great, but I feel we need every freaking counter we can get in a fight over CB. So far I think about:

    -4 chain lightning
    -2 PoP
    +2 Pyroblast
    +2 Flusterstorm
    +2 Sulfuric Vortex
    I don't really like Clique. It can be very good, but I feel like I just want a game breaking threat in the 3 drop slot and Vendilion Clique isn't quite that. It is very frail as it dies to a lot of removal including half of a Forked Bolt (not that that card is being played right now). I like True-Name Nemesis because it is very difficult to answer and just can't be blocked making it a very potent threat and one that your opponents must respect.

    I think that it's correct to board out Price just because it is so easy for Miracles to blank. I like keeping in most bolts to try to end the game faster. I generally tend to cut 2 Probes against Miracles and leave in 2 Chain Lightnings at least on the play. I like to trim on Daze on the draw because its not really that great and your Miracles opponent can just sandbag t2 Counterbalance to play around Daze.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
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    Re: U/R Delver

    So guys i played FNM Legacy at my LGS with the following list:

    Spells: 31
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Daze
    1x Fireblast
    3x Force of Will
    4x Lightning Bolt
    2x Price of Progress
    1x Thunderous Wrath
    4x Chain Lightning
    4x Gitaxian Probe
    4x Ponder

    Lands: 16
    2x Island
    2x Mountain
    4x Polluted Delta
    4x Scalding Tarn
    2x Volcanic Island
    2x Wooded Foothills

    Creatures: 13
    1x Bedlam Reveler
    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Monastery Swiftspear
    4x Stormchaser Mage (not sure which other creature i should have played in the 13th slot.)

    Sideboard: 15
    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Force of Will
    1x Grafdigger's Cage
    1x Price of Progress
    2x Pyroblast
    2x Smash to Smithereens
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Sudden Demise
    2x Sulfuric Vortex
    1x Surgical Extraction
    1x Vendilion Clique
    1x Winter Orb

    All in all i went 6-0 to my own surprise.

    Round 1 against Burn: 2-0
    Round 2 against Belcher: 2-0 (should have lost the second one as he puts 8 Goblins into play on the first Turn but ponder*2 + Brainstorm + Gitaxian Probe let me find my singleton Sudden Demise to take out all of his tokens while on 1 life... )
    Round 3 against Aluren 2-1
    Round 4 against Infect 2-0
    Top 4 Semifinal against Grixis Delver 2-1
    Final against the Infect guy from Round 4 again 2-1

    If anyone is interested in a more detailed report just let me know but i think you guys already know how to play this deck.

    Overall i really liked the whole deck, Wrath suprised all of my opponents and took game 2 against Aluren as he played around Fireblast and i ripped it from the top to deal lethal with a Stormchaser Mage. I will stay with the card for a while.
    Sideboard has been fine too. Not sure if 1 Cage/1 Extraction is needed but i like to have at least 1 card that deals with Reanimator and to a lesser extend Storm. I would like to have 1 Grim Lavamancer somewhere in the 75 as well as a single Blood Moon but i'm not sure what to cut.

  17. #77
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel View Post

    Round 1 against Burn: 2-0
    Round 2 against Belcher: 2-0 (should have lost the second one as he puts 8 Goblins into play on the first Turn but ponder*2 + Brainstorm + Gitaxian Probe let me find my singleton Sudden Demise to take out all of his tokens while on 1 life... )
    Round 3 against Aluren 2-1
    Round 4 against Infect 2-0
    Top 4 Semifinal against Grixis Delver 2-1
    Final against the Infect guy from Round 4 again 2-1
    Were you on the play vs Burn? I find that matchup to be not favorable myself.
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  18. #78
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    Re: U/R Delver

    So Thunderous Wrath is the real deal, huh? The same goes for 3 FoW main, and one in the side. Will update the primer soon
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  19. #79
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    Re: U/R Delver

    I'd like to bring up Mathieu Haas's list that he piloted to the top8 in Milan over the weekend: zero Prowess creatures, 3 Lavamancers, 3 TNNs, 4 Pyromancers. On its surface this list seems less explosive but more resilient and probably much better against DnT - the list also runs a 2/2 Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt split. 3 Eidolons in the side is most likely a nod to a higher presence of Storm in Europe. Since I'm new to this archetype, I don't know if this style of UR Delver has existed in the past or if it's a fresh take. Anyone have more informed opinions on this?

    Thanks.

  20. #80
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    Re: U/R Delver

    Quote Originally Posted by theMonster View Post
    Since I'm new to this archetype, I don't know if this style of UR Delver has existed in the past or if it's a fresh take. Anyone have more informed opinions on this?
    These types of lists are less common these days, but do pop up occasionally. Here are a couple I know of:

    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22215&iddeck=171248
    http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21397&iddeck=164062

    It's hard to say how good they are relative to the more "UR Prowess" builds due to the lack of sample size. We don't really know whether the win percentage is different. It's possible these are great builds and not enough people are playing them.

    As an anecdote, I tried a 0-prowess build at my LGS a few weeks ago and went 3-1 with it; it definitely felt at least "fine". But I'm back on UR Prowess because I think it's got a bit higher power level.

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