I'd say our Miracles matchup is slightly unfavorable generally. Thankfully some lists aren't running 4x Counterbalance anymore because BGx is on the rise (Decay)
The approach I take is usually no more than 2 threats at a time, and try to hold up some counter magic. Always counter the Top, because it gives them a massive advantage over the game.
I feel that you have the right idea but I don't really care to counter Top unless I can Daze it. Otherwise there are only 2 cards I see worth countering; Terminus and Counterbalance. As for Mentor/Entreat, if your game plan is going well your opponent should not have the luxury to try to make these cards relevant.
Agree, I'm not sure I'd even Daze a top, but that's pretty hand dependent. The power of Top scales, it's not particularly good in the early game but a beast in the late game. UR is an aggro deck, you're looking to mitigate its power by killing the opponent. Counterbalance is by far the scariest card in the MU imo.
I think my approach to Miracles is a little unorthodox - I play it as an all-out blitz, and am willing to commit 3 creatures to the board more often than not (especially on the play, or virtually on the play if they have to waste their T1 on something like a Ponder). Typically I am looking to throw as much damage at face as possible early on, and rely on having 1x Force of Will for a Terminus on turn 3 or so to get over the hump.
In the post-board games, I'm bringing in Vortex, Null Rod, Sulfur Elemental, Exquisite Firecraft. All of these allow dodging Counterbalance in them mid-to-late game, provided I was able to knock them down to ~8 or below in the early rush. I also find Price of Progress is still very strong against Miracles; I'm usually leaving in 2x because I find they often can't play around it completely and have to take 4 or 6 from it during or after some critical stack battle.
Lifetime I am 10-6 against Miracles with this deck, at a mix of MTGO/weeklies/SCG/GP. Since I started playing the matchup super aggressively around last September, I'm 8-2, with one of those losses against the recent Challenge winner Mzfroste. I'm probably getting some luck here, but it's enough that I feel happy to see the matchup across the table.
I like that 'blitz' plan with creatures a lot, the more time you give them the more card selection they'll have and have the answers for every creature. If you can cash them in for damage early, do it and try to finish it off with burn to the dome.
I've not tried Firecraft actually, seems fantastic, need to pick some of them up!
Hey, y'all, been testing this deck for the past couple weeks and have grown to really enjoy it. I like that it is favorable against all the three-color decks, and I'm 50/50 against Miracles and DnT (but could probably improve these win rates with more practice and a more tuned 75).
I've got some questions about the 2-drop slot. Stormchaser Mage is one of those cards that's been hard to evaluate for me. I like its evasion in the face of all these TNNs and the fact it can pitch to Force of Will, but often it feels like it attacks for one and dies to one-drop removal (including Pyroblast, which is on the rise), costing me valuable tempo. I've been very impressed by Swiftspear, though. It looks like 3 copies of Stormchaser is the number people have settled on. What's everyone else's take on the card? I assume Young Pyromancer has been tested and deemed inferior, right?
(Also, Thunderous Wrath ... I'm in love.)
Thanks!
YPs belong to another strategy. Unlike Grixis tempo, we are closer to an all-in deck.
Stormchaser mage is not some strictly "stronger" card. However, as prowess guy No.5-7, he significantly increases the chance of having multiple prowess attackers in play, "upgrade" the triggers.
Imagine that...if Monastary Swiftspear was never printed, would we still run Stormchaser mage in this deck? I think I won't.
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
I'm surprised how many people don't counter SDT - I always assumed it was one of the most powerful cards against us. It enables the instant speed/0 mana investment to set up a Terminus on our turn, it enables CB (which is MUCH worse without SDT)
For me, I can understand the 'blitz' mentality on the play, but committing 3 creatures to the board on the draw seems risky
This is all G1 of course, I think our SB games are a little different.
If you ask Miracle players about 95% of them will tell you that they think it's wrong to FoW a SDT. Having played against UR Delver with Grixis (stifle) Delver a ton I agree, but maybe it's a bit different here. My gut though would tell me that it's fine if they waste their mana topping.
Since I recently purchased my Scalding Tarns to be able to play Badlands in Grixis I decided I might as well build UR Delver since it's sometimes just a great metagame call and the cards to complete it cost me like 1 ticket (mtgo is awesome sometimes). I'm running a fairly standard list:
Lands (16)
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
3 volcanic
2 island
1 mountain
Creatures (13)
4 delver
4 swiftspear
3 stormchaser
1 clique
1 reveler
Spells (31)
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 bolt
4 lightning
2 PoP
1 fireblast
4 daze
4 force
Sideboard (15)
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Any thoughts on Vendilion Clique instead of the second Reveler? From the few games I played I really only ever wanted one. Unlike the stifle versions I usually play the clique also seems awesome, especially since it helps against the tougher combo-matchups. Really the reason I built this deck is to have access to 8 bolts and Rough/Tumble, that card scares the shit out of me every time I play with Grixis. The relic is there because I wanted another gy-hate, I figure I'll take out reveler in those matches anyways. I remember it also being annoyingly good against Tarmogoyf and DRS decks.
Something I'm yet not sure about is the Miracles matchup. How many bolts should I leave in? Since they want their pyroblasts is there a good chance PoP will still deal 4+ damage or would you rather keep in a bolt? Daze certainly is not great, but I feel we need every freaking counter we can get in a fight over CB. So far I think about:
-4 chain lightning
-2 PoP
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Sulfuric Vortex
Relic I think is propably only good in theory and is propably too durdly and not worth the card overall.
@Agrippa91: welcome! Perhaps you are right regarding not countering SDT, but maybe it all depends on certain situations. I will say that a counter-war isn't the way to go, that's for sure. Countering a CB would be awesome as well.
Regarding Clique: I don't know. What I do know is that I'm playing 4 Delver/ 4 Swiftspear/ 4 Mage and just one Reveler. I never felt comfortable playing two. I can see dropping him entirely if there would be better creature to fit this deck. I'm not sure, but I can see myself playing YP as two of as well. It would give a better late game in case of a failed 'blitzkrieg'. Let us know how Clique works out for you.
I don't really like Clique. It can be very good, but I feel like I just want a game breaking threat in the 3 drop slot and Vendilion Clique isn't quite that. It is very frail as it dies to a lot of removal including half of a Forked Bolt (not that that card is being played right now). I like True-Name Nemesis because it is very difficult to answer and just can't be blocked making it a very potent threat and one that your opponents must respect.
I think that it's correct to board out Price just because it is so easy for Miracles to blank. I like keeping in most bolts to try to end the game faster. I generally tend to cut 2 Probes against Miracles and leave in 2 Chain Lightnings at least on the play. I like to trim on Daze on the draw because its not really that great and your Miracles opponent can just sandbag t2 Counterbalance to play around Daze.
So guys i played FNM Legacy at my LGS with the following list:
Spells: 31
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Fireblast
3x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Price of Progress
1x Thunderous Wrath
4x Chain Lightning
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
Lands: 16
2x Island
2x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Volcanic Island
2x Wooded Foothills
Creatures: 13
1x Bedlam Reveler
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Stormchaser Mage (not sure which other creature i should have played in the 13th slot.)
Sideboard: 15
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Price of Progress
2x Pyroblast
2x Smash to Smithereens
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sudden Demise
2x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Winter Orb
All in all i went 6-0 to my own surprise.
Round 1 against Burn: 2-0
Round 2 against Belcher: 2-0 (should have lost the second one as he puts 8 Goblins into play on the first Turn but ponder*2 + Brainstorm + Gitaxian Probe let me find my singleton Sudden Demise to take out all of his tokens while on 1 life... )
Round 3 against Aluren 2-1
Round 4 against Infect 2-0
Top 4 Semifinal against Grixis Delver 2-1
Final against the Infect guy from Round 4 again 2-1
If anyone is interested in a more detailed report just let me know but i think you guys already know how to play this deck.
Overall i really liked the whole deck, Wrath suprised all of my opponents and took game 2 against Aluren as he played around Fireblast and i ripped it from the top to deal lethal with a Stormchaser Mage. I will stay with the card for a while.
Sideboard has been fine too. Not sure if 1 Cage/1 Extraction is needed but i like to have at least 1 card that deals with Reanimator and to a lesser extend Storm. I would like to have 1 Grim Lavamancer somewhere in the 75 as well as a single Blood Moon but i'm not sure what to cut.
So Thunderous Wrath is the real deal, huh? The same goes for 3 FoW main, and one in the side. Will update the primer soon
I'd like to bring up Mathieu Haas's list that he piloted to the top8 in Milan over the weekend: zero Prowess creatures, 3 Lavamancers, 3 TNNs, 4 Pyromancers. On its surface this list seems less explosive but more resilient and probably much better against DnT - the list also runs a 2/2 Chain Lightning/Forked Bolt split. 3 Eidolons in the side is most likely a nod to a higher presence of Storm in Europe. Since I'm new to this archetype, I don't know if this style of UR Delver has existed in the past or if it's a fresh take. Anyone have more informed opinions on this?
Thanks.
These types of lists are less common these days, but do pop up occasionally. Here are a couple I know of:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22215&iddeck=171248
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21397&iddeck=164062
It's hard to say how good they are relative to the more "UR Prowess" builds due to the lack of sample size. We don't really know whether the win percentage is different. It's possible these are great builds and not enough people are playing them.
As an anecdote, I tried a 0-prowess build at my LGS a few weeks ago and went 3-1 with it; it definitely felt at least "fine". But I'm back on UR Prowess because I think it's got a bit higher power level.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)